Before Jesus came to the world how were people saved?

[Hillsage]

Great analogy...I will be stealing it as soon as is necessary to use it....lol

No steeling required, freedom to do so is absolutely granted. That actually happened to a young man I was mentoring in our church years ago. He was in the Mexican Mafia, and a guy really did try to take him out. I asked him what he did when the clip fell out? He said; "I RAN!!!"

 

[AGTG]

Consider the what Jesus said about Abraham:

John 8:6
6 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."

Why was Abraham glad? Because he, along with everyone else who had died under the Old Covenant, went to a place awaiting the cross. This place is known as Abraham's bosom. These people were not justified by their own works, or the blood of slain beasts, for neither of those things could justify someone enough to actually come into the presence of Father God. They were justified because they had faith that God would provide a way.

And only the shed blood of His Only Begotten Son could do that, so they waited until Jesus' day.

When Jesus laid down His life, He went to "set the captives free" from Abraham's bosom, as well as anyone alive who wished to get to Father God and be set free from their bondage to sin.

This is how people were justified who died before the cross.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

What or where is Abrahams bosom?? And why does this verse trump the two dozen verses that clearly speak of the dead being in a state of inanimate sleep... resting in the dust until Christ resurrects them?

Yes,[why?] [hint: it doesn't]
and besides that, it would only take one verse to prove traditional thinking (that most people believe) is in error, since YHWH never contradicts Himself.

Still, most people don't agree that YHWH'S WORD is truth, and that Scripture never contradicts itself (as it obviously does if they are right, which is an impossibility since all men can be wrong, but YHWH cannot be, nor can His Word).
i.e. tighter than an ironclad contract, not one Word of YHWH'S can be changed to make any tradition viable. But as long as people place tradition over His Word, adding to or taking away, then the plagues He Says are added are added to their lives, OR the LIFE He Says is taken away is taken away from their lives.

It sounds harsh to some, but His Word Is Inviolable - no matter how many they are nor how long they try, they cannot change even one iota of His Word.

 

[Hillsage]

Yes,[why?] [hint: it doesn't]
and besides that, it would only take one verse to prove traditional thinking (that most people believe) is in error, since YHWH never contradicts Himself.

Still, most people don't agree that YHWH'S WORD is truth, and that Scripture never contradicts itself (as it obviously does if they are right, which is an impossibility since all men can be wrong, but YHWH cannot be, nor can His Word).
i.e. tighter than an ironclad contract, not one Word of YHWH'S can be changed to make any tradition viable. But as long as people place tradition over His Word, adding to or taking away, then the plagues He Says are added are added to their lives, OR the LIFE He Says is taken away is taken away from their lives.

It sounds harsh to some, but His Word Is Inviolable - no matter how many they are nor how long they try, they cannot change even one iota of His Word.

The only problem with this is bring of the opinion that The "every word' that proceedeth from the mouth of God" is not the same as the 'iota' of the "book".

Deuteronomy 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.
...................................................(present progressive tense)

Scripture itself defines what scripture is, and that is a book of "inspired" words, not dictated 'words', as in the occultic practice of automatic handwriting. If God inspired two people to write concerning His sunset for the day, they might write two different things, but both were inspired of God.

A "word proceeding out of the mouth of God" IMO, is a present progressive tense 'word of wisdom', 'word of knowledge', 'prophecy', 'tongue', 'interpretation of a tongue'. And the BIBLE or scriptures as defined in the Greek is 'graphe'. Nothing too glorious or immutable or inerrant in that definition IMO.

1124 graphe {graf-ay'}: of uncertain affinity
(1) a writing, thing written
(2) the Scripture, used to denote either the book itself, or its contents
(3) a certain portion or section of the Holy Scripture

And if God inspired/breathed every word written then why is the world would He write;

1 Corinthians 7:12 To the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her.

1 Corinthians 7:40 But in my judgment she is happier if she remains as she is. And I think that I have the Spirit of God.

I believe there's a difference between an inspired 'think so' word of God' and an 'every written word in the bible is spoken of God'. That's just my opinion...and my reason why.

I'm fond of saying; "I worship the God of the book. And not 'the book of God'."

 

[Buzz_B]

You did read my 'signature line' didn't you.


FYI you're making me wrestle with your Plural/Singular comment concerning "thy, thee, thou, thine" as well as "YE/ YOU". I'm especially wrestling because I've known about what you've share and caused others to "wrestle in themselves" also. Especially in my use of it with a 'litmus' scriptural interpretation of a very popular doctrine; 'My body is the body that the Holy Spirit dwells in.'

"Know YE/pl not that YOUR/pl body/sg is the body/sg of the Holy Spirit."

Shouldn't Orthodox thinking read;
Know 'thee' not that 'thy' bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit.'

No, orthodox thinking should not read that way, for if Paul had meant that he knew how to say it.

But I used to wrestle like that and paid attention to what it meant. It meant that i did not really understand. So I set out to learn to understand, praying fervently for God to give me the wisdom to know how to do so.

I have shown you two ways to determine what Paul meant. One way is by understanding the Greek better in terms of grammar and perspective. The other way is by being careful to carry forward Paul's thoughts through each chapter so that you do not lose sight of who this "you " is Paul first began talking to.

For example: In the Corinthians "you" is the "the church of God which is at Corinth" and those linked together with them. (1 Corinthians 1:2) Paul does not make it confusing by making "you" suddenly mean something else without he introduces that something else to us. And that something else is always a group such as are that "the church of God which is at Corinth", together with "them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord." (KJV)

Thus we can easily understand that the church (or, congregation) of God is the you and we know that church is a singular body in Christ. "Know YE/pl not that YOUR/pl body/sg is the body/sg of the Holy Spirit." The church has the body of Christ in which its members are made one by means of the holy spirit.

That is not difficult. And I did not even get into the Greek grammar details there to demonstrate it. But for those who wish to be teachers, being as teachers are subjected to a heavier judgment, bad understanding of the Greek grammar corrupts. So such ones need to revisit their education which was polluted with bias of preconceived interpretations, and relearn it the right way.

I hope this verse makes you wrestle as much as you're making me wrestle with the 1Thes 5:23 verse you shared. Or is 'this' one of those doctrines you referred to?

No, it in no way makes me wrestle in myself, for I go by the proper Greek grammar and perspective.

Applying what I said about following through without losing sight of who the "you" is that Paul began speaking to:

1 Thessalonians 1:4 "Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God." <---- (saved as a remnant, one unit)

1 Thessalonians 2:7 "But we were gentle among you, even as a nurse cherisheth her children.." (Note that "among is G1722 "en" - they could not get around it there with false reasoning.)

1 Thessalonians 5:23 "And the very God of peace sanctify you (the beloved brethren as one body) wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit (the spirit in that congregation) and soul (the life that is Christ in that congregation) and body (the unified body they share of Christ through the holy spirit) be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

In other words, Paul prayed the congregation would not become corrupted, sickly, and near death just as we see in the messages to the congregations in Revelation chapters 2 and 3.

And for the very reason you just quoted, I go a copy of the Jehovah Witnesses Greek Interlinear for this type of study comparison. They too write the plural "YOU" all in caps and the singular "you" in lower case. I never knew there were any other translations that did so.

There are others which do that. You can find them.

Edit: Well I did a bit of further checking and could find none other than the 1610 Douay; the King James (not the Revised KJV), an the 1984 NWT which do provide easy recognition of the singular vs plural 2nd person Greek pronouns. But I know I have seen it in others. The problem is that I have so many different versions of the Bible in my storage that it would take half forever to find them.

I noticed that the NWT eliminated that in their 2013 edition. What a shame! But I have found errors, though very few, in the NWT caused of a remnant of false beliefs they yet retain. I could introduce you to those errors but I do not think you are ready to understand as yet, for I think you believe as they do in connection with the particular section of Scripture.

This is a slow process and it takes humility. It is a place where our humility is really put to the test. But if one has that humility to be teachable, God sees that even if that one has not learned yet. And God does not forget that humility in his judgment of a person. Having the meek attitude of Christ is more important than knowledge. Ephesians 3:19

It is just that because we are told that wisdom is the prime thing (Proverbs 4:7) and that it is better than rubies (Proverbs 8:11) everyone wants it so bad that they try to force it against humility, and that births false pride wherein we become deceived. This is why I seek to teach the method of acquiring it with the help of the holy spirit. We have to give the holy spirit something to work with both in terms of humility and preparation of our selves so that the holy spirit has something to bless with its help.

 

[Hillsage]

No, orthodox thinking should not read that way, for if Paul had meant that he knew how to say it.

But I used to wrestle like that and paid attention to what it meant. It meant that i did not really understand. So I set out to learn to understand, praying fervently for God to give me the wisdom to know how to do so.

I have shown you two ways to determine what Paul meant. One way is by understanding the Greek better in terms of grammar and perspective. The other way is by being careful to carry forward Paul's thoughts through each chapter so that you do not lose sight of who this "you " is Paul first began talking to.

For example: In the Corinthians "you" is the "the church of God which is at Corinth" and those linked together with them. (1 Corinthians 1:2) Paul does not make it confusing by making "you" suddenly mean something else without he introduces that something else to us. And that something else is always a group such as are that "the church of God which is at Corinth", together with "them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord." (KJV)

Thus we can easily understand that the church (or, congregation) of God is the you and we know that church is a singular body in Christ. "Know YE/pl not that YOUR/pl body/sg is the body/sg of the Holy Spirit."

I'm still not sure if we're saying the same thing or not. I do agree that the church is the singular body. And the Holy Spirit dwells in that singular body, but not the "living stones" which make up the temple, or 'many membered body' of Christ. A point further supported by;

EPH 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household/sg of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building/sg fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple/sg in the Lord: 22 In whom YE also are builded together for an habitation/sg of God through the Spirit.

1PE 2:5 YE also, as lively stones,/pl, are built up a spiritual house,/sg (temple)

The church has the body of Christ in which its members are made one by means of the holy spirit.

I would say that the church IS the body of Christ. Are you of a different opinion by saying "has"?
And I agree that we are made one by the holy spirit, but only if you really meant to not capitalize holy spirit. Was that intentional on your part?

 

[Buzz_B]

I'm still not sure if we're saying the same thing or not. I do agree that the church is the singular body. And the Holy Spirit dwells in that singular body, but not the "living stones" which make up the temple, or 'many membered body' of Christ. A point further supported by;

EPH 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household/sg of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building/sg fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple/sg in the Lord: 22 In whom YE also are builded together for an habitation/sg of God through the Spirit.

1PE 2:5 YE also, as lively stones,/pl, are built up a spiritual house,/sg (temple)


I would say that the church IS the body of Christ. Are you of a different opinion by saying "has"?
And I agree that we are made one by the holy spirit, but only if you really meant to not capitalize holy spirit. Was that intentional on your part?

I believe very similar to Jehovah's Witnesses in a number of ways. Yes, not capitalizing holy spirit is intentional on my part.

But after I came back and viewed your post again, I saw that I did not fully understand what you were saying, quote, "I do agree that the church is the singular body. And the Holy Spirit dwells in that singular body, but not the "living stones" which make up the temple, or 'many membered body' of Christ." Unquote.

I think you mean that the many members in their oneness forms that body? If so I agree. And it is the holy spirit of God's unifying love predominantly causing that unity. That unity in spirit (one spirit) makes them work and think together in harmony as one body.

Here as follows is why so many have difficulty grasping this:

Ephesians 4:23-24 "And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.'

That sounds very much like it is directed at individuals doesn't it, and yet we see the 2nd person plural pronoun translated as "your" there. (G5216 -humon)

I understand why that would confuse many. But the problem is eased somewhat when we realize that Paul is speaking to the congregation and encouraging them to work on that one spirit (Ephesians 2:18) and so succeed in putting on that ONE new man (Ephesians 2:15)

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

So whose mind are they to work on having? The mind of the old man? Or the mind which is one spirit with the mind of Christ? (1 Corinthians 2:16)

I have great sympathy for people in regard to this, for I struggled myself horribly for many years. I know how tough it is. It is not as easy as everyone seems to think even to learn to link to and cooperate with God's holy spirit. That is why we need that ransom's extended coverage. What God is watching is our humble willingness in continuing to earnestly try to grow at it, learning more and more each day how to give our self to his holy spirit's leading of us. And we learn it more effectively together as a group. Indeed it may be next to impossible to learn it in total isolation.

 

[Hillsage]

I believe very similar to Jehovah's Witnesses in a number of ways.

There's truth in every bible believing denomination IMO. The devil doesn't start another 'church split' without mixing some meat with the poison IMO.

Yes, not capitalizing holy spirit is intentional on my part.

But after I came back and viewed your post again, I saw that I did not fully understand what you were saying, quote, "I do agree that the church is the singular body. And the Holy Spirit dwells in that singular body, but not the "living stones" which make up the temple, or 'many membered body' of Christ." Unquote.

I think you mean that the many members in their oneness forms that body? If so I agree. And it is the holy spirit of God's unifying love predominantly causing that unity. That unity in spirit (one spirit) makes them work and think together in harmony as one body.

We may still be saying 'much of the same thing', just from a different angle. I believe that 'the holy spirit' in every believer is the same spirit that was in Jesus on earth. And that spirit was the 'Christ spirit'. And when our spirit is 'born anew' it too is the 'Christ spirit' in us "the hope of glory" and also the spirit that makes "he that is joined to the Lord is one spirit". The same "spirit" surrendered to the hand of the father from the cross. Surrendered by 'the son of man'....JESUS. But the Holy Spirit was never in Jesus...only upon Him, according to multiple scriptures. That's my take anyway.

Ephesians 4:23-24 "And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.'

That sounds very much like it is directed at individuals doesn't it, and yet we see the 2nd person plural pronoun translated as "your" there. (G5216 -humon)

I too struggle here with your POV. We, 'many members' make up the body of Christ on earth, but the corporate body will only become 'one mind' when every individual has 'put on the mind of Christ'. Even Paul lamented, concerning the corporate body saying;

GAL 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

And we as individuals are still very much "double minded" even though individually, we each have the same one, holy spirit of Christ within us. And that 'Christ minded spirit' is trying to "form" the mind of Christ in 'each' of the "little children" (immature ones)

I understand why that would confuse many. But the problem is eased somewhat when we realize that Paul is speaking to the congregation and encouraging them to work on that one spirit (Ephesians 2:18) and so succeed in putting on that ONE new man (Ephesians 2:15)

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

So whose mind are they to work on having? The mind of the old man? Or the mind which is one spirit with the mind of Christ? (1 Corinthians 2:16)

The whole body can't grow the same way, but not at the same pace. But individuals do make up 'part' of the "WE have the mind of Christ". IOW he isn't saying 'THOU has it', but 'YE have it'....Right?

I have great sympathy for people in regard to this, for I struggled myself horribly for many years. I know how tough it is. It is not as easy as everyone seems to think even to learn to link to and cooperate with God's holy spirit. That is why we need that ransom's extended coverage. What God is watching is our humble willingness in continuing to earnestly try to grow at it, learning more and more each day how to give our self to his holy spirit's leading of us. And we learn it more effectively together as a group. Indeed it may be next to impossible to learn it in total isolation.

Struggle is what it takes for the 'chick to hatch' and the butterfly to fly', but metamorphosis is truly in our calling as individuals also.

 

[Buzz_B]

There's truth in every bible believing denomination IMO. The devil doesn't start another 'church split' without mixing some meat with the poison IMO.



We may still be saying 'much of the same thing', just from a different angle. I believe that 'the holy spirit' in every believer is the same spirit that was in Jesus on earth. And that spirit was the 'Christ spirit'. And when our spirit is 'born anew' it too is the 'Christ spirit' in us "the hope of glory" and also the spirit that makes "he that is joined to the Lord is one spirit". The same "spirit" surrendered to the hand of the father from the cross. Surrendered by 'the son of man'....JESUS. But the Holy Spirit was never in Jesus...only upon Him, according to multiple scriptures. That's my take anyway.


I too struggle here with your POV. We, 'many members' make up the body of Christ on earth, but the corporate body will only become 'one mind' when every individual has 'put on the mind of Christ'. Even Paul lamented, concerning the corporate body saying;

GAL 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

And we as individuals are still very much "double minded" even though individually, we each have the same one, holy spirit of Christ within us. And that 'Christ minded spirit' is trying to "form" the mind of Christ in 'each' of the "little children" (immature ones)


The whole body can't grow the same way, but not at the same pace. But individuals do make up 'part' of the "WE have the mind of Christ". IOW he isn't saying 'THOU has it', but 'YE have it'....Right?


Struggle is what it takes for the 'chick to hatch' and the butterfly to fly', but metamorphosis is truly in our calling as individuals also.

I especially like the fact that you appreciate that as individuals we each and every one of us have our own spirit and that it is not a separate part of our person but an aggregate of our soul. ( I had to look that word "aggregate" up after I used it to make sure it was the word I wanted.)

Yes, we are on the same page. "WE have the mind of Christ" and so We can communicate together as one body helping each other to better understand. If each of us think about all the discussion that goes on inside our self as we consider things, like a voice speaking in our heads sorting the information through, we then can see that discussion which must come to go on in the greater body of Christ so that we grow as a unified whole. And in that unity of the greater body we find our good conscience before God, making that greater body like the Ark which saved not just Noah, but his entire family.

By that we understand that when Paul says, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God..." (Ephesians 2:8) we should think of it as, "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)" (Ephesians 2:5)

We are nothing without God's congregation. We must have it.

In my case I do not have a permanent place to rest my head. I have no congregation in particular I can call my own. And though God has been gracious toward me to grow my understanding he did so after my younger more foolish days banished me to a distance. But because I have been willing to continue to look on from a distance as if a part of a congregation, he helps me to grow. I cannot guarantee that can happen for everyone. It is difficult not to be eaten up by loneliness and self-pity when one must go it without the active support of a congregation. And I have no way to know that it would not simply consume another to grief. We need the congregation.

 

[Almost there]

This is one of those issues on which the bible is fairly silent or intentionally vague. It does get into it a little bit regarding Jesus' ministry after his death, and after his resurrection. And time outside of our level of creation may not flow quite the same (or exist at all) as it does here. I tend to see it from the Ecclesiastes perspective. Remember the relative passage of time issue in the movie Interstellar?

This is also easy to handle if one is an adherrent to CI rather than ECT. If one believes CI, it is acceptable to believe that nobody was saved, hence my reference to Ecclesiastes. But if one is an adherent to ECT, it's not an acceptable answer, for obvious reasons.

 

[Buzz_B]

This is one of those issues on which the bible is fairly silent or intentionally vague. It does get into it a little bit regarding Jesus' ministry after his death, and after his resurrection. And time outside of our level of creation may not flow quite the same (or exist at all) as it does here. I tend to see it from the Ecclesiastes perspective. Remember the relative passage of time issue in the movie Interstellar?

This is also easy to handle if one is an adherrent to CI rather than ECT. If one believes CI, it is acceptable to believe that nobody was saved, hence my reference to Ecclesiastes. But if one is an adherent to ECT, it's not an acceptable answer, for obvious reasons.

Have pity on me and define CI and ECT ?

 

[Almost there]

Have pity on me and define CI and ECT ?

CI : Conditional Immortality - you must be saved to be immortal. The rest really do die, once and for all, at the second death.
ECT: Eternal conscious torment - Those that are not saved are tortured for eternity in ways even Hitler and Caligula could not come up with.

It's covered here: Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical

 

[Buzz_B]

CI : Conditional Immortality - you must be saved to be immortal. The rest really do die, once and for all, at the second death.
ECT: Eternal conscious torment - Those that are not saved are tortured for eternity in ways even Hitler and Caligula could not come up with.

It's covered here: Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical

Thank you.

I am definitely a believer in CI, then. But I also have a fairly uncommon view of immortality as compared to other CI believers. It is a subject I spent much time meditating on and speaking in prayer to God about. I do not believe in immortality as taught in the Greek philosophical sense. Where many claim the flesh must be put off before immortality can be put on, I believe that we must put off the the sin which causes our flesh to be corruptible. And then, rather than having to put off our flesh, that which is mortal is swallowed up by that which is immortal. It only requires God grant us the gift of everlasting sustaining to life on the condition of our continued holiness. For then we are immortal, which in its simplest sense merely means "not subject to death and dying", which is the goal spiritually in Christ. And once that goal in Christ is completed, then God returns our whole soul back to a state of life like that we learned in the incorruptible spirit of Christ.

God always has the power to take what he gives back. The way we have been thinking about an irrevocable immortality is Grecian philosophy. To think of immortality as irrevocable is like failing to understand that God gave conditions to receive it. Surely then there are conditions to keep it. We are not being blessed to become our own Gods. We are not ever going to be able to exist apart from God.

 

[Hillsage]

I especially like the fact that you appreciate that as individuals we each and every one of us have our own spirit and that it is not a separate part of our person but an aggregate of our soul. ( I had to look that word "aggregate" up after I used it to make sure it was the word I wanted.)

Oh I know the definition. And I've used it a lot concerning 'nominal' Christianity. I always say most Christians are just like 'concrete' (cement + aggregate). They're all mixed up...and hard to change.

In my case I do not have a permanent place to rest my head. I have no congregation in particular I can call my own. And though God has been gracious toward me to grow my understanding he did so after my younger more foolish days banished me to a distance. But because I have been willing to continue to look on from a distance as if a part of a congregation, he helps me to grow. I cannot guarantee that can happen for everyone. It is difficult not to be eaten up by loneliness and self-pity when one must go it without the active support of a congregation. And I have no way to know that it would not simply consume another to grief. We need the congregation.

Our own path has been 2 years as charismatic in Lutheran church, 17 years home church, 23 years Charismatic church, 4 years home church. I don't brag of this last one, but Baptist last 3 years. Not sure why we're there. I think, it's to learn to get along with the 'whole body'.

PS My first path was 22 years as an unsaved Roman Catholic.

 

[1213]

From Adam and Eve's time till Christ was ministering how were people saved? Not to many people debate for instance Adam and Eve's salvation. Or Abraham or King Saul, or King David. But just how were they saved when Jesus hadn't died on the cross yet? When Jesus was ministering people how were they saved? By believing that he was the Messiah? Were people saved before Jesus was born by believing in the messiah? Was it their works? Their sacrifices to God? Believing in the one true God? Keeping the ten commandments and the law? Just how were Jews saved before they rejected their Messiah? I'm confused.

Bible tells:


Most assuredly, I tell you, the hour comes, and now is, when the dead will hear the Son of God's voice; and those who hear will live.
John 5:25

And those who have not heard of Jesus:

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified (for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.
Romans 2:12-16

 

[Almost there]

Bible tells:


Most assuredly, I tell you, the hour comes, and now is, when the dead will hear the Son of God's voice; and those who hear will live.
John 5:25

Why on earth have I never noticed that?!

Thanks!

 

[Buzz_B]

Oh I know the definition. And I've used it a lot concerning 'nominal' Christianity. I always say most Christians are just like 'concrete' (cement + aggregate). They're all mixed up...and hard to change.


Our own path has been 2 years as charismatic in Lutheran church, 17 years home church, 23 years Charismatic church, 4 years home church. I don't brag of this last one, but Baptist last 3 years. Not sure why we're there. I think, it's to learn to get along with the 'whole body'.

PS My first path was 22 years as an unsaved Roman Catholic.

Fascinating. To learn to get along with the 'whole body', I believe is why God has allowed schisms in the body. We learn some of our most valuable lessons by having to deal with such schisms. And I do mean to include learning from even the most vile who has lain a root in God's congregation for whatever purpose. It reminds me of Proverbs 21:18 "The wicked shall be a ransom for the righteous, and the transgressor for the upright." That does not mean they take the place of Christ's ransom sacrifice, but it means that God uses them and teaches us to use them in many ways to our benefit.

I have somewhat of a variety background similarly as yours. My mother shared her faith to me from the time I was born. At that time she was a youth teacher in the Assembly of God. But my father was such a violent man both emotionally and physically that I was hiding from the wars in my home in whatever crevice i could find to crawl into from my youngest memories. That caused a great deal of nervousness in me and timidity which led to being bullied from early on when I entered school. Then at about 10 I was sexually molested and by the age of 15 had been sexually assaulted a half dozen times by different young and older men. And often so violently so that I feared for my life. But I yet believed in God even though I kept asking him why he was letting this all happen to me.

I became my mother's defender and the violent fights between my father and I did their own sort of injury to my self respect, for I knew the Biblical admonition saying that I was to honor both my father and my mother. As a messed up kid I ended up in jail at the age of 18 and though I had a few years in my mid teens when I thought I had stopped being that coward who let himself be the victim of rapists, they made me share a cell with a criminal they had brought back from a high security prison for the criminally insane for a hearing. And he beat met and raped me. It was as if all the effort i had put into proving that I was still a man despite those earlier molestations went right out the window.

I have cried sore tears in this life and when I found my first wife I married not because of love but because if she wanted to be with me that must be a sign I was OK despite that past. So that led to problems. And when we had our first child of course I wanted to join a church and raise that child better than I had been raised but I was so messed up that the church did not want anything to do with me. And I was so ashamed of my past I could not bring myself to share with them what was behind my often rash emotion responses with people. I was kept at a distance, marked and shunned. And i was always crying inside myself hidden tears rather than to let them see my weakness as a man.

I could share much more but I think you get the drift.

 

[Buzz_B]

Why on earth have I never noticed that?!

Thanks!

LOL, been there done that many times!

 

[Buzz_B]

So what is my point? I have great respect for the admonition, "Judge not that you may not be judged." Matthew 7:1

But think about what is there said. We can see only, "Judge not ..." Or, we can see Jesus as there saying, "Judge not that you [will] be not judged." IOW, when judging others do not think that you will not also be judged. Care how you judge others so that you won't be judged. "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged." 1 Corinthians 11:31

In this life it takes much experience to learn to judge others fairly. We must first learn to judge our self before we can really see how to judge anyone else in a way which does not condemn our self.

I have gone on to grow in Christ. I can look back on those rough days of my youth and have great compassion for all who did not know what they were doing. I can and have forgiven the members of the church who thought they were working the righteousness of God by how they judged me. I know that they were doing as best they knew how to do. And today when we meet up face to face it is like that time never existed. I have long moved on and found that it seemed far better that because I was not stagnated to one location or boxed in by particular doctrines to a limited group, I was able to remain free of their clicks which, like traps, captured them and bound them. I am thus able to be used to help open the doors on those traps, those clicks, and participate with God in setting captives free.

Is that arrogance on my part?

 

[Hillsage]

Fascinating. To learn to get along with the 'whole body', I believe is why God has allowed schisms in the body. We learn some of our most valuable lessons by having to deal with such schisms. And I do mean to include learning from even the most vile who has lain a root in God's congregation for whatever purpose. It reminds me of Proverbs 21:18 "The wicked shall be a ransom for the righteous, and the transgressor for the upright." That does not mean they take the place of Christ's ransom sacrifice, but it means that God uses them and teaches us to use them in many ways to our benefit.

I have somewhat of a variety background similarly as yours. My mother shared her faith to me from the time I was born. At that time she was a youth teacher in the Assembly of God. But my father was such a violent man both emotionally and physically that I was hiding from the wars in my home in whatever crevice i could find to crawl into from my youngest memories. That caused a great deal of nervousness in me and timidity which led to being bullied from early on when I entered school. Then at about 10 I was sexually molested and by the age of 15 had been sexually assaulted a half dozen times by different young and older men. And often so violently so that I feared for my life. But I yet believed in God even though I kept asking him why he was letting this all happen to me.

I became my mother's defender and the violent fights between my father and I did their own sort of injury to my self respect, for I knew the Biblical admonition saying that I was to honor both my father and my mother. As a messed up kid I ended up in jail at the age of 18 and though I had a few years in my mid teens when I thought I had stopped being that coward who let himself be the victim of rapists, they made me share a cell with a criminal they had brought back from a high security prison for the criminally insane for a hearing. And he beat met and raped me. It was as if all the effort i had put into proving that I was still a man despite those earlier molestations went right out the window.

I have cried sore tears in this life and when I found my first wife I married not because of love but because if she wanted to be with me that must be a sign I was OK despite that past. So that led to problems. And when we had our first child of course I wanted to join a church and raise that child better than I had been raised but I was so messed up that the church did not want anything to do with me. And I was so ashamed of my past I could not bring myself to share with them what was behind my often rash emotion responses with people. I was kept at a distance, marked and shunned. And i was always crying inside myself hidden tears rather than to let them see my weakness as a man.

I could share much more but I think you get the drift.

Yes, I do get the drift. I always say (in recent years) don't judge people til you hear their testimony. For sure, Every Saint 'has a past' and every sinner 'has a future'. And your past was definitely much worse than mine. Maybe you meant our 'church past' was similar, but you really didn't go into that. I was really more at the top of my game when the hound of heaven hunted me down, and I became a true born again 'Believer'. But, the 'top of my game' might not be very impressive to others. I had pretty low ambitions.

Hey, back to your previous post; I don't know that I melt spirit and soul together as much as you may have assumed, but I'm not sure. I know they're separate as even scripture says they can be; even though it takes "the sword of the Spirit" to do so, since they're intimate as "joints and marrow".... which is a pretty interesting analogy that I don't think I've ever plumbed the depths of.