Before Jesus came to the world how were people saved?

[Buzz_B]

2 Thess.1:9 speaks of their "destruction", though some translations read "extermination", "ruin", etc

A recent new translation by EO scholar David Bentley Hart reads: "Who shall pay the just reparation of ruin in the Age, coming from the face of the Lord and the glory of his might" (The New Testament: A Translation, 2017, Yale University Press).

The Greek word for "ruin" (2 Th.1:9) is the same for "destruction" in 1 Cor.5 & refers to the flesh being destroyed, not the person, for the purpose of salvation:

4 When you are gathered in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, along with the power of the Lord Jesus, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

The problem is that though you assessment of 1 Corinthians 5:5 is sincere, it is mistaken.

First off, the word "his" is translated from the definite article "ho" but it is the neuter gender written as "to" in the Greek text of 1 Cor5:5. As it has no gender we cannot properly render it as "he" or "him". (And both Westcott-Hort and Stephanus Textus Receptus do use the neuter "to pneuma" there.)

I am saddened by such uncaring mistranslation like as that which was done obviously to harmonize a preconceived belief to the text. It is supposed to work the other way around. We ought to not alter the Greek text by turning the Greek neuter "to" into a masculine "tov" if we care about truth. We alter what we believe so that what we believe harmonizes with the Greek text.

The spirit there spoken of is the one being grieved by the congregation's failure to put the leaven out from it, just as shown in context. This is because God's house (his temple) is holy and allowing leaven to work freely within the congregation to corrupt it threatens to quench the spirit of the congregation.

1 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 We give thanks to God always for you("the church of the Thessalonians") all, making mention of you("the church of the Thessalonians") in our prayers;
3 Remembering without ceasing your work("the church of the Thessalonians") of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; ................................
5:19 Quench not the Spirit.
20 Despise not prophesyings.
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you("the church of the Thessalonians") wholly; and I pray God your("the church's) whole spirit and soul and body (which they have of Christ) be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is he that calleth you("the church of the Thessalonians"), who also will do it.

Now, I know some will buck what I have there shown you, but not only does the Greek plural pronouns indicate that the way I showed you is correct but you have the example of the churches being spoken to as congregations there in Revelation chapters 2 and 3 to use as a comparison for how Paul was talking to the church as the first 3 verses of 1 Thessalonians 1 shows.

I know it makes us wrestle in ourselves a bit at first. It is not easy finding out we have had a few things wrong. Nobody likes it until they have so surrendered to God's hands that they get used to being found wrong when they are wrong, and even look forward to it as it means more growth in Christ.

Be brave and hang in there. It gets better.

Edit: The KJV sets the singular off as "thy", "thee", "thou", "thine" which is very helpful when one learns to use it to their advantage.

Because this failure to correctly understand the Bible writers use of the plural Greek pronoun translated "ye", "you", "your", "yours" is a source of much error in doctrine, I will add this little extra help. Do a word search for "among you" and notice that these you's are able to have people and many other things "among" (as in "distributed within") those you's. That is because "you" is the congregation as one body one spirit of Christ. Example: Romans 12:3 "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more ..." "among" is there the Greek preposition "en". So one could say , ""For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is (in or within) you ..."

Most are not so skilled at this basic word usage as they think. It is these simple things we overlook.

Not all Bibles have distinguished the plural pronouns from the singular with the use of "thy", "thee", "thou", "thine" for the singular 2nd person pronouns the way the KJV does. Some do it by capitalizing all the letters of the plural and using lower case for the singular. But many do noting at all to help you know if it is the plural or singular used. Then you have to look it up yourself in a reference.

 

[food4thought]

From Adam and Eve's time till Christ was ministering how were people saved? Not to many people debate for instance Adam and Eve's salvation. Or Abraham or King Saul, or King David. But just how were they saved when Jesus hadn't died on the cross yet? When Jesus was ministering people how were they saved? By believing that he was the Messiah? Were people saved before Jesus was born by believing in the messiah? Was it their works? Their sacrifices to God? Believing in the one true God? Keeping the ten commandments and the law? Just how were Jews saved before they rejected their Messiah? I'm confused.

I have always understood that before Christ people were judged worthy of salvation by grace through faith. God's grace extended light to all people, at it was up to them to have faith in the light provided. For instance, Adam and Eve had faith in the ultimate redemption promised in Genesis 3:15. Abraham had faith in the promises made to him. The people after the Law had faith to keep the Law as best they could, trusting in God's mercy and grace to accept the sacrifices that were but types and shadows of Jesus Christ.

It is true that no one entered heaven until after Jesus' resurrection, but they were in paradise (Abraham's bosom) while the unbelieving and wicked were in torment.

Hope this helps...

 

[Hillsage]

Hebrews 11:4
4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. KJV

Romans 4:3
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness
KJV

Genesis 15:6
6 And he [Abraham] believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. KJV

Perhaps we would not see that faith has always been the means by which men have been deemed righteous by God, without the helps and clarification provided in the Newer Testament. But, with that help, it because very evident.

I actually came across the Hebrews faith chapter after I'd posted. You are right, faith did come into play, at least after the Garden, for sure. But it's still pretty absent in the OT scriptures until those many centuries later, even as the OT verses you shared support.

But what was appropriated by that 'post Garden faith' righteousness, isn't really clear, is it? I mean, does anyone know just exactly what these sacrifices were based upon? And what exactly was the religious 'system' associated with it? The old covenant and the new covenant were still an age/ages (?) away. I'm going to assume it was a 'righteousness' for "respect/regard" from God for temporal protection and or blessings. But that is only an 'opinion'....again.

 

[Hillsage]

Genesis 2:16,17
And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

I guess I see that verse as a 'statement of fact', but certainly don't think it 'determines' or refutes 'free will'. Not as strongly as say;

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

It is true that no one entered heaven until after Jesus' resurrection, but they were in paradise (Abraham's bosom) while the unbelieving and wicked were in torment.

What or where is Abrahams bosom?? And why does this verse trump the two dozen verses that clearly speak of the dead being in a state of inanimate sleep... resting in the dust until Christ resurrects them? The Bible does not speak of a "few" places we go when we die, that is man made conjecture based on Hellenist thinking.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

But it's still pretty absent in the OT scriptures until those many centuries later

Please explain why Cain killed his brother if not from unbelief.

 

[Buzz_B]

I guess I see that verse as a 'statement of fact', but certainly don't think it 'determines' or refutes 'free will'. Not as strongly as say;

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Do you imagine that means that God makes us do what he wants us to do? (As in literally forces us?)

How does God work in us to have that will that we do his good pleasure?

2 Corinthians 5:14 "For it is the love of Christ which is moving (or constraining (KJV)) us; because we are of the opinion that if one was put to death for all, then all have undergone death.." (BBE)

The love that drives Christ to do what he does is the perfect love of God. Thus Christ spoke of the Father being in him moving his works. At Philippians 2:12 Paul meant God works in us through that motivating love of God which constrains us to God's will.

We learn that love of God that is in Christ (the love OF Christ) most pointedly from the greatness of his self-sacrificing love which willingly died for us. And we know that this was as God's love willed it should be for our sakes.

1 John 4:19 "We love him, because he first loved us."

God is not directly doing it for us as if to literally take over our freedom of will so that we have no choice. He moves us by his love even as the compassionate quality of his goodness is what moved us to repent:

Romans 2:4 "Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?"

 

[msortwell]

I have always understood that before Christ people were judged worthy of salvation by grace through faith. God's grace extended light to all people, at it was up to them to have faith in the light provided. For instance, Adam and Eve had faith in the ultimate redemption promised in Genesis 3:15. Abraham had faith in the promises made to him. The people after the Law had faith to keep the Law as best they could, trusting in God's mercy and grace to accept the sacrifices that were but types and shadows of Jesus Christ . . .

When God established his covenant with Abraham he sovereignly told Abraham what he (God) was going to do. God declared that he would bless Abraham with a land and a Seed, and by that Seed all of the nations of the earth would be blessed (Gen 12, 15, 17).

Later, God would establish another covenant with the people of Israel. This was a law covenant that was brought to the people through Moses, so we refer to it as the Mosaic Covenant (MC). But this Mosaic Covenant did not put an end to the Abrahamic Covenant (AC). This is why Moses pleaded with God with regards to the promise (covenant) made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob – the covenant of the seed - immediately AFTER having received the Law from God and the people were worshiping the golden calf [Ex 32:13]. Both the MC and the AC were moving through history together - MC largely of law, and AC purely of grace.

 

[Buzz_B]

When God established his covenant with Abraham he sovereignly told Abraham what he (God) was going to do. God declared that he would bless Abraham with a land and a Seed, and by that Seed all of the nations of the earth would be blessed (Gen 12, 15, 17).

Later, God would establish another covenant with the people of Israel. This was a law covenant that was brought to the people through Moses, so we refer to it as the Mosaic Covenant (MC). But this Mosaic Covenant did not put an end to the Abrahamic Covenant (AC). This is why Moses pleaded with God with regards to the promise (covenant) made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob – the covenant of the seed - immediately AFTER having received the Law from God and the people were worshiping the golden calf [Ex 32:13]. Both the MC and the AC were moving through history together - MC largely of law, and AC purely of grace.

Yes, that is right.

What James said is the same today as yesterday and will be tomorrow:

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

Solomon prayed for that wisdom and received it. Solomon believed without doubting that God would grant wisdom to him and he received it. And that was long before Christ came in the flesh. That proves God's grace has always been there. That grace was amplified in Christ (shown most powerfully).

 

[bling]

From Adam and Eve's time till Christ was ministering how were people saved? Not to many people debate for instance Adam and Eve's salvation. Or Abraham or King Saul, or King David. But just how were they saved when Jesus hadn't died on the cross yet? When Jesus was ministering people how were they saved? By believing that he was the Messiah? Were people saved before Jesus was born by believing in the messiah? Was it their works? Their sacrifices to God? Believing in the one true God? Keeping the ten commandments and the law? Just how were Jews saved before they rejected their Messiah? I'm confused.

I would really use Ro. 3:25 to understand how God addressed the sins of repentant individuals prior to the cross:

God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished... (Rom. 3:25, 1984 NIV)

“Unpunished” might be better translated “undisciplined” since the Greek word could be translated either way. This does not mean God did not discipline offences (especially nations), but individuals did not have fair/just discipline for their rebellious disobedience.

The disciplining/punishment we now receive from the cross is contrasted with the lack of fair/just punishment/discipline received by the forgiven repentant sinners prior to the cross.


The prophets tell us:

Ezk. 18: 30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

Isaiah 30:15 This is what the Sovereign Lord, the Holy One of Israel, says: “In repentance and rest is your salvation, in quietness and trust is your strength, but you would have none of it

Psalm 130:

Out of the depths I cry to you, Lord;2 Lord, hear my voice. Let your ears be attentive

to my cry for mercy. 3 If you, Lord, kept a record of sins,

Lord, who could stand? 4 But with you there is forgiveness,

so that we can, with reverence, serve you.

Psalm 103: 2Praise the Lord, my soul and forget not all his benefits—3 who forgives all your sins

and heals all your diseases, 4 who redeems your life from the pit

and crowns you with love and compassion,

Micah 7:18 Who is a God like you, who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance? You do not stay angry forever but delight to show mercy.

The Old Testament does not talk about a “later time” when forgiven sinner will have his sins taken away, but talks about God forgiving them at the time of their repentance, so in the Old Testament times God “past over” forgiven sins and did not punish the sinner, while after the cross a person could be punished (disciplined).

Paul explains this “passing over” by contrasting it with what we have after the cross in Romans 3:25:

 

[Hillsage]

Do you imagine that means that God makes us do what he wants us to do? (As in literally forces us?)

No, not at all. Though I do believe He ultimately does get His will regarding His plan/purpose for His creation.

Ephesians 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

How does God work in us to have that will that we do his good pleasure?

In regard to getting 'saved' I suppose there's multiple ways, if we're looking at the 'outward', but I'm assuming that God can be at the source of whatever the influences are, which collectively or individually affect our will. Even the works of Satan, as in the case of Job, or the ones turned over to Satan"that they might 'learn' not to blaspheme", or that they might be "'saved' on the day of judgment." In even 'those' instances God's supreme 'will' ultimately reigns IMO.

2 Corinthians 5:14 "For it is the love of Christ which is moving (or constraining (KJV)) us; because we are of the opinion that if one was put to death for all, then all have undergone death.." (BBE)

Note, the disciples were "moving/constrained" but only "because we are of the opinion". And the reason for 'their opinion' was based upon understanding the last part of that verse;
"if one was put to death for all, then all have undergone death.." An understanding possibly linked with a true Spiritual 'revelation of that truth'.

The love that drives Christ to do what he does is the perfect love of God. Thus Christ spoke of the Father being in him moving his works. At Philippians 2:12 Paul meant God works in us through that motivating love of God which constrains us to God's will.

Influencing his will to be submitted to the Father will, for sure. And an influence which was so grievous that in Gesthemene's darkest hour Jesus asked for another plan.

God is not directly doing it for us as if to literally take over our freedom of will so that we have no choice. He moves us by his love even as the compassionate quality of his goodness is what moved us to repent:

Romans 2:4 "Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?"

Not "directly doing it for us" I'd agree, but even here there is a necessary choosing influence from above that we must receive from God.

2TI 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth,

And if 'the timing' of 'coming to know the truth' is premature for a spirit's 're-birth', I assume that God will perhaps not "grant repentance" at that time.

 

[Hillsage]

Please explain why Cain killed his brother if not from unbelief.

I believe God had a different answer IMO;

6 The LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry, and why has your countenance fallen?
7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is couching at the door; its desire is for you, but you must master it."

I see "anger" and "not feeling accepted"...by God, being what led to his murder of Abel. But as for 'unbelief', I guess I'll ask you to point out where that was the motivator.

 

[Buzz_B]

I believe God had a different answer IMO;

6 The LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry, and why has your countenance fallen?
7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is couching at the door; its desire is for you, but you must master it."

I see "anger" and "not feeling accepted"...by God, being what led to his murder of Abel. But as for 'unbelief', I guess I'll ask you to point out where that was the motivator.

Good point, Hillsage.

That shows us that it is not enough just to believe but we must have the quality of belief that fully rests its trust in God's judgments both good and bad insofar as our perception of his judgment is concerned. IOW, a belief that lets him have the lead in both the first and the last word as well as all in between.

 

[Buzz_B]

No, not at all. Though I do believe He ultimately does get His will regarding His plan/purpose for His creation.

Ephesians 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,


In regard to getting 'saved' I suppose there's multiple ways, if we're looking at the 'outward', but I'm assuming that God can be at the source of whatever the influences are, which collectively or individually affect our will. Even the works of Satan, as in the case of Job, or the ones turned over to Satan"that they might 'learn' not to blaspheme", or that they might be "'saved' on the day of judgment." In even 'those' instances God's supreme 'will' ultimately reigns IMO.


Note, the disciples were "moving/constrained" but only "because we are of the opinion". And the reason for 'their opinion' was based upon understanding the last part of that verse;
"if one was put to death for all, then all have undergone death.." And understanding possibly linked with a true Spiritual 'revelation of that truth'.


Influencing his will to be submitted to the Father will, for sure. And an influence which was so grievous that in Gesthemene's darkest hour Jesus asked for another plan.


Not "directly doing it for us" I'd agree, but even here there is a necessary choosing influence from above that we must receive from God.

2TI 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth,

And if 'the timing' of 'coming to know the truth' is premature for a spirit's 're-birth', I assume that God will perhaps not "grant repentance" at that time.

That is a truly spiritually insightful post! A real pleasure to read.

The only thing I might add is that this granting of repentance is because God sees the reasoning of our heart and mind and looks for meekness to bless as he will not reward evil thinking. And sometimes our thinking can be so subtly evil that we do not even think it is so that we are thinking evil.

I mentioned that OT verse which tells us God looks for the meek to help them, not too long ago in a post in one of the threads but must take a second or two here to relocate that verse. I recall the gist of it but not the exact location except that it was a Psalm. Here it is:

Psalms 25:9 "The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way."

 

[Buzz_B]

I would really use Ro. 3:25 to understand how God addressed the sins of repentant individuals prior to the cross:

God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished... (Rom. 3:25, 1984 NIV)

“Unpunished” might be better translated “undisciplined” since the Greek word could be translated either way. This does not mean God did not discipline offences (especially nations), but individuals did not have fair/just discipline for their rebellious disobedience.

The disciplining/punishment we now receive from the cross is contrasted with the lack of fair/just punishment/discipline received by the forgiven repentant sinners prior to the cross.


The prophets tell us:

Ezk. 18: 30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

Isaiah 30:15 This is what the Sovereign Lord, the Holy One of Israel, says: “In repentance and rest is your salvation, in quietness and trust is your strength, but you would have none of it

Psalm 130:

Out of the depths I cry to you, Lord;2 Lord, hear my voice. Let your ears be attentive

to my cry for mercy. 3 If you, Lord, kept a record of sins,

Lord, who could stand? 4 But with you there is forgiveness,

so that we can, with reverence, serve you.

Psalm 103: 2Praise the Lord, my soul and forget not all his benefits—3 who forgives all your sins

and heals all your diseases, 4 who redeems your life from the pit

and crowns you with love and compassion,

Micah 7:18 Who is a God like you, who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance? You do not stay angry forever but delight to show mercy.

The Old Testament does not talk about a “later time” when forgiven sinner will have his sins taken away, but talks about God forgiving them at the time of their repentance, so in the Old Testament times God “past over” forgiven sins and did not punish the sinner, while after the cross a person could be punished (disciplined).

Paul explains this “passing over” by contrasting it with what we have after the cross in Romans 3:25:

I found your post also to be very spiritually edifying.

What a joy it is to share such thoughts founded in truth!

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

No, not at all. Though I do believe He ultimately does get His will regarding His plan/purpose for His creation.

Ephesians 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,


In regard to getting 'saved' I suppose there's multiple ways, if we're looking at the 'outward', but I'm assuming that God can be at the source of whatever the influences are, which collectively or individually affect our will. Even the works of Satan, as in the case of Job, or the ones turned over to Satan"that they might 'learn' not to blaspheme", or that they might be "'saved' on the day of judgment." In even 'those' instances God's supreme 'will' ultimately reigns IMO.


Note, the disciples were "moving/constrained" but only "because we are of the opinion". And the reason for 'their opinion' was based upon understanding the last part of that verse;
"if one was put to death for all, then all have undergone death.." And understanding possibly linked with a true Spiritual 'revelation of that truth'.


Influencing his will to be submitted to the Father will, for sure. And an influence which was so grievous that in Gesthemene's darkest hour Jesus asked for another plan.


Not "directly doing it for us" I'd agree, but even here there is a necessary choosing influence from above that we must receive from God.

2TI 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth,

And if 'the timing' of 'coming to know the truth' is premature for a spirit's 're-birth', I assume that God will perhaps not "grant repentance" at that time.

Hill....I heard our freedom compared to the following.... I can jump into the Mississippi River and play up a storm,I can swim from one side to the other ,i can go underwater and I can swim upstream or downstream,pretty much have the freedom to do as I please. But I might be unaware that the whole time I am heading for the Gulf of Mexico....a bigger thing is taking place. Does that make any sense? Lol

 

[Hillsage]

Hill....I heard our freedom compared to the following.... I can jump into the Mississippi River and play up a storm,I can swim from one side to the other ,i can go underwater and I can swim upstream or downstream,pretty much have the freedom to do as I please. But I might be unaware that the whole time I am heading for the Gulf of Mexico....a bigger thing is taking place. Does that make any sense? Lol

Actually it does make sense. If I decide to kill a guy because I'm so mad at him, but then I pull my pistol and pull the trigger....and the clip falls out. In my heart, with my anger and actions, did I commit murder? Yep. Is he dead? Nope.

Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander.

'My free will' and 'God's free-er will' both fulfilled...IMO.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

I believe God had a different answer IMO;

6 The LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry, and why has your countenance fallen?
7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is couching at the door; its desire is for you, but you must master it."

I see "anger" and "not feeling accepted"...by God, being what led to his murder of Abel. But as for 'unbelief', I guess I'll ask you to point out where that was the motivator.

"why are you angry"

Some where between Adam and Eve leaving the Garden and the story of the brothers offering a sacrifice they had to be told about what and why to sacrifice by either thier parents or the Lord. It is evident that Cain did not believe that he had to offer a animal sacrifice as did his brother.

thus unbelief lead to "anger" and "not feeling accepted"...by God" then a murder

Gen 4
3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.

4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Actually it does make sense. If I decide to kill a guy because I'm so mad at him, but then I pull my pistol and pull the trigger....and the clip falls out. In my heart, with my anger and actions, did I commit murder? Yep. Is he dead? Nope.

Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander.

'My free will' and 'God's free-er will' both fulfilled...IMO.

Great analogy...I will be stealing it as soon as is necessary to use it....lol

 

[Hillsage]

I am saddened by such uncaring mistranslation like as that which was done obviously to harmonize a preconceived belief to the text. It is supposed to work the other way around. We ought to not alter the Greek text by turning the Greek neuter "to" into a masculine "tov" if we care about truth. We alter what we believe so that what we believe harmonizes with the Greek text.

You did read my 'signature line' didn't you.

I know it makes us wrestle in ourselves a bit at first. It is not easy finding out we have had a few things wrong. Nobody likes it until they have so surrendered to God's hands that they get used to being found wrong when they are wrong, and even look forward to it as it means more growth in Christ.

FYI you're making me wrestle with your Plural/Singular comment concerning "thy, thee, thou, thine" as well as "YE/ YOU". I'm especially wrestling because I've known about what you've share and caused others to "wrestle in themselves" also. Especially in my use of it with a 'litmus' scriptural interpretation of a very popular doctrine; 'My body is the body that the Holy Spirit dwells in.'

"Know YE/pl not that YOUR/pl body/sg is the body/sg of the Holy Spirit."

Shouldn't Orthodox thinking read;
Know 'thee' not that 'thy' bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit.'

I hope this verse makes you wrestle as much as you're making me wrestle with the 1Thes 5:23 verse you shared. Or is 'this' one of those doctrines you referred to?

Not all Bibles have distinguished the plural pronouns from the singular with the use of "thy", "thee", "thou", "thine" for the singular 2nd person pronouns the way the KJV does. Some do it by capitalizing all the letters of the plural and using lower case for the singular. But many do noting at all to help you know if it is the plural or singular used. Then you have to look it up yourself in a reference.

And for the very reason you just quoted, I go a copy of the Jehovah Witnesses Greek Interlinear for this type of study comparison. They too write the plural "YOU" all in caps and the singular "you" in lower case. I never knew there were any other translations that did so.