• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured Before Anraham was, I AM

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Airaux, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. Airaux

    Airaux New Member

    46
    +3
    Christian Seeker
    Single
    For some reason, this computer won't let me see entry #18.
     
  2. Airaux

    Airaux New Member

    46
    +3
    Christian Seeker
    Single
    LittleLambofJesus: Thanks for your input.
    From what you and "Der Alter" said, it looks like the Greek Septuagint is wrongly translated at this point which seems surprising.
    I intend looking further into the subject.
     
  3. TrevorL

    TrevorL Regular Member

    497
    +36
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Greetings Airaux ,
    I agree with you that the LXX does not seem to be the correct translation of Exodus 3:14, but I also question the KJV translation:
    Exodus 3:14-15 (KJV): 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

    Most translations and commentators accept the present tense “I am that I am”, but notice in the margin of the RV (or ASV) and RSV, an alternative is given “I will be that I will be” or “I will be what I will be”, showing that some modern scholars suggest this alternative reading. Although not popular it appears that this future tense is the correct translation. Not only modern scholars, Tyndale also translated this in the future tense.
    Exodus 3:12-14 (Tyndale): 12 And he sayde: I wilbe with the. And this shalbe a token vnto the that I haue sent the: after that thou hast broughte the people out of Egipte, ye shall serue God vppon this mountayne. 13 Than sayde Moses vnto God: when I come vnto the childern of Israell and saye vnto them, the God of youre fathers hath sent me vnto you, ad they saye vnto me, what ys his name, what answere shall I geuethem? 14 Then sayde God vnto Moses: I wilbe what I wilbe: ad he sayde, this shalt thou saye vnto the children of Israel: I wilbe dyd send me to you.

    The word “ehyeh” is in Exodus 3:14 is the same in the earlier statement in v12, and here the translators give the future tense:
    Exodus 3:12 (KJV): And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.
    Not only does this fix the tense, it also introduces the concept that the Name of God is also associated with some future activity.

    This future tense and future activity was to be God acting to deliver Israel out of Egypt, so that Israel would become a people for His Name. They would be a living witness to the purpose of God, and a witness to the existence of God. The following passage emphasises this future work in delivering Israel with the future aspect of the Name:
    Exodus 6:1-8 (KJV): 1 Then the LORD said unto Moses, Now shalt thou see what I will do to Pharaoh: for with a strong hand shall he let them go, and with a strong hand shall he drive them out of his land. 2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD: 3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH (or Yahweh) was I not known to them. 4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers. 5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant. 6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments: 7 And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians. 8 And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for an heritage: I am the LORD.

    When Israel was delivered out of Egypt the Name of God remains the same, but the particular activity has been accomplished:
    Exodus 15:1-3 (KJV): 1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea. 2 The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father’s God, and I will exalt him. 3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
    The future tense of God’s Name “He will be or become” has been accomplished, and Yahweh had become Israel’s salvation.

    As far as John 8:58, I connect this with John 8:24,28 where the same words are translated “I am he”, part of the theme of whether Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
  4. Airaux

    Airaux New Member

    46
    +3
    Christian Seeker
    Single
    TrevorL: Thanks for your input.
    I must admit - although language is a subtle thing, affected by context and changes over time, it seems strange to me that a seemingly straightforward phrase is clouded in doubt. I would have thought that it would be easy to distinguish between the present and future tense.
    I speak neither Hebrew nor Greek.
    It also seems strange to me that a work as respected as the LXX would make so seemingly basic an error.
     
  5. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,451
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    A brief quote from the Jewish Encyclopedia-12 page article, Names of God
    Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh.
    The Incommunicable Name was pronounced "Adonai," and where Adonai and Yhwh occur together the latter was pronounced "Elohim." After the destruction of the Second Temple there remained no trace of knowledge as to the pronunciation of the Name . The commentators, however, agree as to its interpretation, that it denotes the eternal and everlasting existence of God, and that it is a composition of היה הוה יהיה (meaning "a Being of the Past, the Present, and the Future"). The name Ehyeh ( אהיה ) denotes His potency in the immediate future, and is part of Yhwh. The phrase "ehyeh-asher-ehyeh" (Ex. iii. 14) is interpreted by some authorities as "I will be because I will be," using the second part as a gloss and referring to God's promise, "Certainly I will be [ehyeh] with thee" (Ex. iii. 12). Other authorities claim that the whole phrase forms one name. The Targum Onḳelos leaves the phrase untranslated and is so quoted in the Talmud (B. B. 73a). The "I AM THAT I AM" of the Authorized Version is based on this view.

    Jewish Encyclopedia online


     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  6. TrevorL

    TrevorL Regular Member

    497
    +36
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Greetings again Airaux,
    My amateur understanding is that Hebrew does not have past, present and future tenses, but complete and incomplete tenses. “Ehyeh” in Exodus 3:12 and Exodus 3:14 is in the incomplete tense and should be translated as future tense. In my fellowship this has been taught for over 150 years and I was brought up in this environment. I have had this reinforced by the three translations mentioned and the context. As well as this many others, some Trinitarians and some non-Trinitarians. I did part of a Hebrew course, 4 levels of 8 videos each, Beginners, Intermediate, Advanced and Translating. The instructor in Part 2 of the Intermediate Lesson gives “I will be” instead of “I AM” for Exodus 3:14. I watched a thorough-going forum thread where the subject was the meaning of the Yahweh Name and supporting “I will be”. Three or four others were in support of the “I AM” view. At least two of the participants agreed with the “I will be” explanation at the end. When “I will be” is properly understood it is very similar concept to the NT that the One God is the Father. But there are many Trinitarians and translations that support the “I AM” view, but I suggest that many prefer this because of the supposed link with John 8:58.
    But the LXX even gives a different view and translation than the KJV. I doubt that this was because they had a different Hebrew text.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
  7. Airaux

    Airaux New Member

    46
    +3
    Christian Seeker
    Single
    In light of the opinion that the future is the correct tense in Ex3:14, how, if at all, do you think it affects the implications of Christ's "Before Abraham was, I AM" quote?
     
  8. TrevorL

    TrevorL Regular Member

    497
    +36
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Greetings again Airaux,
    Possibly you missed my earlier comment above. The way I see it is that many link Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58, and this is evident from the KJV rendition of “I AM” in both places, thus alluding to the idea that Jesus is claiming the Name of God. I have seen some expositions where the other occurrences mentioned in John’s Gospel are then considered to be part of the “I AM” theme.

    I will let you decide which view you accept, but even in the following the KJV translators do not seem to support the “I AM” theme because in other places they translate the expression as “I am he” and similar and not “I AM”. This again shows the difficulty that we can have with other languages.

    Firstly the following two are in the immediate context, in the same conversation by Jesus to the Jews:
    John 8:24–28 (KJV): 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. 25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. 26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. 27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father. 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

    A few other examples where the same words translated “I AM” in John 8:58 occur. The first is possibly the start of the theme of whether Jesus is the Christ, where John denies that he is the Christ:
    John 1:19–21 (KJV): 19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? 20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. 21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

    In the following Jesus directly states that he is the Christ, but he uses the same words as “I AM”:
    John 4:25–26 (KJV): 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

    The following is the same words, but translated in a different order:
    John 6:19–20 (KJV): 19 So when they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were afraid. 20 But he saith unto them, It is I; be not afraid.

    The blind man uses the same expression:
    John 9:8–9 (KJV): 8 The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged? 9 Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.

    And there are most probably other examples, but here is another:
    John 13:19 (KJV): Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
  9. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +2,820
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    We can study the meaning of the Hebrew letters that make up the word. I AM in Hebrew is אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה Hebrew reads from right to left. So we have an Alef - Hei - Yod - Hei. When we study these four letters and their meaning we can understand what this word represents. Alef is the first letter in the alphabet. So in Greek this would be the letter alpha. We are told that Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. We are told that God declares the end from the beginning. Alef here represents heaven and Earth and how the Torah was given to unite Heaven and Earth. Again this points to Jesus because He is the word of God. The Hei which is the second and the last letter represents a bent over or a humble servant. We are told: "the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” Hei is pronounced HAY in English, a word used to draw attention.

    The third letter is a Yod. This is the smallest letter in the the Hebrew language. This is refered to as a little that holds a lot. We are told that God is infinite and He created a finite world though contraction. Science used the word the big crunch that took place right before the big bang in the beginning.

    The word for "has sent me" is שְׁלָחַ֥נִי. This is made up of five letters beginning with שְׁ This letter: Shin is the letter of fire. This represents how air gives life to the fire. There are four yods and three vovs that make up this letter. These are 7 flames that represent the patriarch and matriarch of the Hebrew people.

    This is infinite and goes on and on. I am just showing you how we can understand the meaning of these words. I personally like Rabbi Avraham Arieh Trugman videos on youtube. He will spend about 5 min on each letter to explain the meaning of each letter in the Ancient Hebrew Alphabet.

    I will give you the video to watch for yourself. This is only 5 min. He goes on to explain cause and effect.

     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2019
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  10. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

    +28,110
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Libertarian
    Another interesting event occurred when Judas came with a detachment of soldiers from the Judean Rulers to arrest Jesus and notice what happened when Jesus said "I am He", they drew back and fell on the ground....why:

    The ruler of this world coming, judged, cast out
    Jhn 18:3
    Then Judas, having received a detachment of troops, and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees
    , came there with lanterns, torches, and weapons.
    Jhn 18:4
    Jesus therefore, knowing all things that would come upon Him, went forward and said to them, “Whom are you seeking?”
    Jhn 18:5
    They answered Him, “Jesus of Nazareth.” Jesus said to them, I am He.And Judas, who betrayed Him, also stood with them.
    Jhn 18:6
    Now when He said to them, “I am He,they drew back and fell to the ground.
    Jhn 18:7
    Then He asked them again, “Whom are you seeking?” And they said, “Jesus of Nazareth.”
    Jhn 18:8
    Jesus answered, “I have told you that I am He. Therefore, if you seek Me, let these go their way,”
     
  11. Airaux

    Airaux New Member

    46
    +3
    Christian Seeker
    Single
    Joshua 1 9: Thanks. I'm in a library and they don't have earphones, so I can't listen to the video at the moment. I'll do so when I get the chance.
    LittleLambofJesus: Thanks.
     
  12. TrevorL

    TrevorL Regular Member

    497
    +36
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Greetings LittleLambofJesus,
    I am interested in what translation you are quoting from as the KJV has lower case "I am he". Jesus is answering and claiming to be Jesus of Nazareth. Do you assess that "I am He" is equivalent to the KJV "I AM" of John 8:58?

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
  13. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,451
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    In the Greek the "I am" in Jn 18:5-6 does not have the pronoun "he." It is italicized in the verses because it was added by the translators
    John 18:5-6
    (5) They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
    (6) As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.
     
  14. TrevorL

    TrevorL Regular Member

    497
    +36
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Greetings Der Alter,
    Yes but do you agree with the KJV or seek to alter this to I AM? Please note that Jesus is answering that he is Jesus of Nazareth. Is Jesus saying more than this? The blind man used the same words and the KJV give the same translation "I am he", showing that we have some difficulty in translating this expression.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
  15. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,451
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    First I don't think we can use the blind man as an example because the blind were outcasts like lepers. They could not attend the temple or the synagogues so he likely did not know the significance of ego eimi. The Greek word for "he" does not occur in John 8:28, John 9:9, John 13:19, John 18:5, John 18:6. It was added by the translators for their own private reasons. The ISV has "I AM", without the pronoun.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2019
Loading...