"BE YE PRAYING WITHOUT CEASING..."

[Arsenios]

Actually .... and I will need a little more time to read it fully, but this seems to have a very different flavor from the book I mentioned. I'm surprised in the excerpt you linked to, St, Ignatius speaks of choosing your own prayer rule, but I suppose many do. His main exhortation seems to be to be faithful, though, and not to pray too much (set oneself up for failure).

Actually I was well-advised, more than once, of the same. Better to have a simple rule, kept diligently. Then it serves as a discipline. One can pray as much in addition as one likes, to be close to God, but should not consider it part of the rule, in order to prevent burnout, pride, despondency, temptation to compromise, and other problems.



But on the other hand, the book I mentioned, is specifically about the Jesus prayer, after a good bit of discussion on prayer in general. But much of it involves caution - too much zeal can lead one into many problems.

In that way it is somewhat of a balance to The Way of the Pilgrim, I think. In Pilgrim, the man is very quickly given the blessing to do an extraordinary number of repetitions, especially not being a monk under constant oversight. It's a wonderful book to read, but I think people need to take care not to simply copy it. My SF would have an absolute fit at the idea, lol.

I will go back and read that page when I have a chance. Pravoslavie is one of my favorite sites, though I've seen things there I would not send an inquirer to read on his own. But it's a wonderful site. Thank you for posting the excerpt!

You are right - He is speaking of a prayer rule, and not of the Jesus Prayer... I was given a rule as you describe after becoming Orthodox - A small rule that I have been slowly increasing across the years, with the Blessing to do so... But no matter what, the little Rule is always there for me, and if I am too far gone with tired to do it, I still do what I can, and then drop off into sleep... And often in this, I will awaken a little later and be able to finish it...

But it is the getting of the Blessing that makes it all flow smoothly... And without a Blessing, there is risk that is not there with it... When the Abbot gave me the rule, he asked me what I was doing up to now for a rule, and then gave me the additional small rule with the blessing to increase it...

The Pilgrim's Blessing was, I should think, given for the Faithful of Russia during the 80 years of atheist persecutions that were coming where Church support would be pretty much eliminated, with the exception of whatever the catecomb Church in Russia could provide... The book itself being the Blessing, to retreat into the privacy of the Jesus Prayer in the insanity of war, revolution and persecutions... It was intended, I should think, primarily for Russian Orthodox pious believers... For the maintenance of their Faith in the face of the persecutions coming...

Arsenios

 

[~Anastasia~]

You are right - He is speaking of a prayer rule, and not of the Jesus Prayer... I was given a rule as you describe after becoming Orthodox - A small rule that I have been slowly increasing across the years, with the Blessing to do so... But no matter what, the little Rule is always there for me, and if I am too far gone with tired to do it, I still do what I can, and then drop off into sleep... And often in this, I will awaken a little later and be able to finish it...

But it is the getting of the Blessing that makes it all flow smoothly... And without a Blessing, there is risk that is not there with it... When the Abbot gave me the rule, he asked me what I was doing up to now for a rule, and then gave me the additional small rule with the blessing to increase it...

The Pilgrim's Blessing was, I should think, given for the Faithful of Russia during the 80 years of atheist persecutions that were coming where Church support would be pretty much eliminated, with the exception of whatever the catecomb Church in Russia could provide... The book itself being the Blessing, to retreat into the privacy of the Jesus Prayer in the insanity of war, revolution and persecutions... It was intended, I should think, primarily for Russian Orthodox pious believers... For the maintenance of their Faith in the face of the persecutions coming...

Arsenios

You are blessed to have the guidance.

I've been given the blessing over the past year, due to health concerns, to modify my rule, and I have right now an alternate evening rule if I am too tired.


What I started to say, is you are blessed to have a wise rule put in place at first. At one very early point, I was given one that was WAY too arduous for a non-monastic, and quickly failed. Then again, perhaps that was actually part of the wisdom and intention. I just now for the first time had that thought, lol. How delightful!

 

[~Anastasia~]

(And I tend to mix up the two in speaking, since the Jesus Prayer is part of my prayer rule, but only a specified number. I also have the blessing to pray it additionally outside the rule, but that is not part of the rule itself.)

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I would say that continuous prayer, if I understand my limited and imperfect experience of it, does not so much override other thoughts, but runs as an undercurrent around them; envelopes and incorporates them into itself, and sweeps them along in its current, so that all of our thoughts become rooted in that prayer, such that our whole lives and whole being become part of that prayer.......I don't think any drudgery in life is a barrier, but that all of life must be part of that whole...

Another way of saying it's just life but of the new creation. It's really a progressive thing and I don't see it coming about by any ritualistic means. Concentration certainly comes in but in context with what is happening in circumstances I would think.

[I am once again enjoying another discussion with you and Arsenios (and others)...feeling blessed. Thank you.]

Always a pleasure. I like your inquirishness. God bless

 

[“Paisios”]

Another way of saying it's just life but of the new creation. It's really a progressive thing and I don't see it coming about by any ritualistic means. Concentration certainly comes in but in context with what is happening in circumstances I would think.
Always a pleasure. I like your inquirishness. God bless

Certainly, it is life of the new creation. Beautifully said. Progressive? Absolutely. I have found, though, that ritual can sometimes have some utility, though I will be the first to say that this is not necessary for all or in all circumstances. Maybe it is the fervent desire and focus that God blesses with results, regardless of the words and ritual? But however He does it, who can limit God?

But yes, concentration and circumstances cannot be ignored, as life in its entirety is what we need to surrender, and paradoxically, enjoy...(again, I stand open to correction. I speak from my picture or experience, but could use a map to find my way...)

 

[Arsenios]

(And I tend to mix up the two in speaking, since the Jesus Prayer is part of my prayer rule, but only a specified number. I also have the blessing to pray it additionally outside the rule, but that is not part of the rule itself.)

I used to do the morning prayers and Small compline, but I came to a place where I have forsaken them in favor of the Jesus Prayer with extra reps for them... I had them all memorized, but I just wanted to pray as a discipline and not have to remember words... So I weener-dogged a little - Monastic big-dog prayer does not seem to be on my menu...

After the rule, just sitting quietly and entering into deep silence and holding it for as long as possible seems helpful... Prostrations for me were released, but I still do a few - When I try to build up their number, I physically break down... It is just a struggle - And when I visit a monastery for awhile, it just feels arduous to keep pace with them... And I suffer interminable and ongoing Joy without any particular reason just about all the time... To the consternation of many, I might add - And who can blame them? I am foolishly joyful and absolutely serious... It's a life!

But just having the discipline of prayer is a great blessing, and when it seems unfruitful, so much the better, and when it is fruitful, so much to learn and acquire in practice and/or understanding... Always vigilant against demonic incursions...

Enough-already!


Arsenios

 

[LaSorcia]

Has anyone read this little book and tried to put it into action?

What were your results?

I read this book five years ago, and I've attempted to put it into practice ever since.
What results have I seen? Implementing the Jesus prayer has really helped with "taking every thought captive". So, greater peace and quiet of mind. More continuous awareness of God's presence.

When I don't know what else to pray, this is always available, hence more prayer. Along with The Cloud of Unknowing and Autobiography of St. Therese, this book has had the biggest impact on my prayer life.

 

[“Paisios”]

I read this book five years ago, and I've attempted to put it into practice ever since.
What results have I seen? Implementing the Jesus prayer has really helped with "taking every thought captive". So, greater peace and quiet of mind. More continuous awareness of God's presence.

When I don't know what else to pray, this is always available, hence more prayer. Along with The Cloud of Unknowing and Autobiography of St. Therese, this book has had the biggest impact on my prayer life.

I found the Cloud of Unknowing of value as well. Greater peace and quiet of mind is one of my goals.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Certainly, it is life of the new creation. Beautifully said. Progressive? Absolutely. I have found, though, that ritual can sometimes have some utility, though I will be the first to say that this is not necessary for all or in all circumstances. Maybe it is the fervent desire and focus that God blesses with results, regardless of the words and ritual? But however He does it, who can limit God?

Awareness becoming second nature is how I experience it now, but I have to admit that the progression to focus that closely has taken till older age and expresses as feeling that presence or awareness. knowing.
But unless one is looking for a Kundalini experience (which I don't believe possible) then the process is needed. I guess that some rituals if also experienced spiritually thru the ritual might have the lesson and the answer within it. I just haven't experienced that myself.

But yes, concentration and circumstances cannot be ignored, as life in its entirety is what we need to surrender, and paradoxically, enjoy...(again, I stand open to correction. I speak from my picture or experience, but could use a map to find my way...)

 

[“Paisios”]

Awareness becoming second nature is how I experience it now, but I have to admit that the progression to focus that closely has taken till older age and expresses as feeling that presence or awareness. knowing.
But unless one is looking for a Kundalini experience (which I don't believe possible) then the process is needed. I guess that some rituals if also experienced spiritually thru the ritual might have the lesson and the answer within it. I just haven't experienced that myself.

How I envy you...

I am not sure of the meaning of Kundalini (Google may be my friend here); at times I have found ritual useful, but have not yet consistently realized "awareness becoming second nature"...just flashes of insight and His presence at times (blessed times, but definitely not second nature). Guess I have some progress yet to make.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

How I envy you...

I am not sure of the meaning of Kundalini (Google may be my friend here); at times I have found ritual useful, but have not yet consistently realized "awareness becoming second nature"...just flashes of insight and His presence at times (blessed times, but definitely not second nature). Guess I have some progress yet to make.

Aww but I bet if you locate the peace that He has left as a down payment of our inheritance along with it you'll find the joy that's also there. Then the work it is tie yourself to the altar there. ;P

 

[“Paisios”]

Aww but I bet if you locate the peace that He has left as a down payment of our inheritance along with it you'll find the joy that's also there. Then the work it is tie yourself to the altar there. ;P

Yes, I have tasted His peace and His joy, which is why I am so anxious to seek, find and drink of Him more deeply. But perhaps that is why He, in His wisdom, denies me that constant awareness...so that I don't get complacent...or maybe I'm just missing something that both you and Arsenios seem to share (even if from very different approaches and means of experience). Either way, I know that He loves me, and I am content.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Yes, I have tasted His peace and His joy, which is why I am so anxious to seek, find and drink of Him more deeply. But perhaps that is why He, in His wisdom, denies me that constant awareness...so that I don't get complacent...or maybe I'm just missing something that both you and Arsenios seem to share (even if from very different approaches and means of experience). Either way, I know that He loves me, and I am content.

Exactly... being content is learned so one of the few things that isn't gifted such as faith etc... Philippians 4:11

 

[“Paisios”]

Exactly... being content is learned so one of the few things that isn't gifted such as faith etc... Philippians 4:11

I am so blessed to have your (and many other's here) wisdom and insight.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I think that you may know more than all of us

 

[“Paisios”]

I think that you may know more than all of us

I've been blessed, and have touched His garments, but I have seen that so many know Him better than me. We are all on the same path...but at different paces, and though the landscape is constant, we focus on different things.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I've been blessed, and have touched His garments, but I have seen that so many know Him better than me. We are all on the same path...but at different paces, and though the landscape is constant, we focus on different things.

That's a great way of individualizing our journays with Him. Happy trails Shoetoyou I know we'll meet again.

 

[Arsenios]

You are blessed to have the guidance.

I've been given the blessing over the past year, due to health concerns, to modify my rule, and I have right now an alternate evening rule if I am too tired.


What I started to say, is you are blessed to have a wise rule put in place at first. At one very early point, I was given one that was WAY too arduous for a non-monastic, and quickly failed. Then again, perhaps that was actually part of the wisdom and intention. I just now for the first time had that thought, lol. How delightful!

The simple fact is that there are very few Spiritual Fathers who are competent to be Spiritual Fathers... A handful I should think in the whole of the US... A Staretz in the Russian Tradition is an illumined elder who has been discipled in the Faith and attained union with God and can disciple others in the Way in which he has himself walked... Often the ones who can get elevated into positions of governance in the Church...

What we have instead as 'Spiritual Fathers' are those willing to do the best they can to help others in their walk in Christ, and to give them a friend and partner in that walk, but without the Prophetic Gift of insight into another person's soul and the knowledge of what is needed for that person's soul to progress... So that sometimes they guess, in their absence of knowledge, and it is easy to have a situation where the blind are leading the blind, having very good hearted intentions, but not according to knowledge...

The faithful, and especially the clergy, very much desire to have a Spiritual Father to whom they can be accountable and run to if they get into trouble with some issue that may arise, or at least to do confession with... The priesthood is by no means an easy path to walk, and every clergy has a crosshairs bull's eye painted on his cassock...

But in the monastic terms of finding a Spiritual Father to whom one can turn over their Spiritual formation, that is a hard one to locate outside a monastery, and even inside a monastery, they are a rare find... So we have to walk in the Way circumspectly and follow as best as we can discern the Way that Christ desires us to walk - And there is a lot of help in books, and after awhile, we will find a pretty good guide to claim as our Spiritual Father, and we just do the best we can... And when we get older, and people come to us for guidance, we need to be very careful, and speak only what we know...

I know one Abbot of a monastery who listens to confessions with one ear, and to God with the other, and if God does not indicate to him what to say, he does not say anything, but just gives encouragement... I know an elder who can give you your confession withouut you saying a word... But these kinds of people are exceptions and rare... Finding a good confessional Priest who knows how to join himself with you to overcome demonic forces which which you are contending is a blessed thing indeed... And these can be found - I have been pleasantly surprised by their number...

I personally did not get my little rule for three years after Baptism... Convert Churches tend to be recovereing evangellicals, even in the priesthood, and so will still be struggling with their conversion issues, and can make mistakes... The thing I like to remind people of is that the Church is full of sinners, and in that hospital of healing, healing can be found, but it's not an automatikker!

Rambling again!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Another way of saying it's just life but of the new creation. It's really a progressive thing and I don't see it coming about by any ritualistic means. Concentration certainly comes in but in context with what is happening in circumstances I would think.
Always a pleasure. I like your inquirishness. God bless

Repentance is indeed progressive... But Life in Christ is a huge big deal that can take you into martyrdom and if you respond to Paul's "Be ye imitators of me" it is an "appointment as unto death"... Indeed, the God-Quest on the straited Way of such a Life in Christ will take all you have to give, and is literally the only thing worth while doing on this earth...

Arsenios

 

[~Anastasia~]

The simple fact is that there are very few Spiritual Fathers who are competent to be Spiritual Fathers... A handful I should think in the whole of the US... A Staretz in the Russian Tradition is an illumined elder who has been discipled in the Faith and attained union with God and can disciple others in the Way in which he has himself walked... Often the ones who can get elevated into positions of governance in the Church...

What we have instead as 'Spiritual Fathers' are those willing to do the best they can to help others in their walk in Christ, and to give them a friend and partner in that walk, but without the Prophetic Gift of insight into another person's soul and the knowledge of what is needed for that person's soul to progress... So that sometimes they guess, in their absence of knowledge, and it is easy to have a situation where the blind are leading the blind, having very good hearted intentions, but not according to knowledge...

The faithful, and especially the clergy, very much desire to have a Spiritual Father to whom they can be accountable and run to if they get into trouble with some issue that may arise, or at least to do confession with... The priesthood is by no means an easy path to walk, and every clergy has a crosshairs bull's eye painted on his cassock...

But in the monastic terms of finding a Spiritual Father to whom one can turn over their Spiritual formation, that is a hard one to locate outside a monastery, and even inside a monastery, they are a rare find... So we have to walk in the Way circumspectly and follow as best as we can discern the Way that Christ desires us to walk - And there is a lot of help in books, and after awhile, we will find a pretty good guide to claim as our Spiritual Father, and we just do the best we can... And when we get older, and people come to us for guidance, we need to be very careful, and speak only what we know...

I know one Abbot of a monastery who listens to confessions with one ear, and to God with the other, and if God does not indicate to him what to say, he does not say anything, but just gives encouragement... I know an elder who can give you your confession withouut you saying a word... But these kinds of people are exceptions and rare... Finding a good confessional Priest who knows how to join himself with you to overcome demonic forces which which you are contending is a blessed thing indeed... And these can be found - I have been pleasantly surprised by their number...

I personally did not get my little rule for three years after Baptism... Convert Churches tend to be recovereing evangellicals, even in the priesthood, and so will still be struggling with their conversion issues, and can make mistakes... The thing I like to remind people of is that the Church is full of sinners, and in that hospital of healing, healing can be found, but it's not an automatikker!

Rambling again!

Arsenios

All of this is very true.

I don't mean to overly inflate my SF or my Confessor. (Two different priests, since my SF is not local and I must speak to him on the phone.)

I have never had Confession with one who can tell me my sins. I have thought about what preparation one would need for such a thing - because to be laid bare in the case of sins we might not acknowledge in ourselves would still demand obedience and repentance.

My SF is a wise guide. He knows when to relax and when to demand more of me (which is good, with the medical issues I've had over the past year). He is very good at offering exercises on what things to consider in order to get to the root of a problem and change my thinking. He is able to direct in how to repel distraction and temptation. All of these are very helpful. But learning prayer is taught mostly BY praying, with helpful guides found in books. I know no one who can teach this. But above all I am thankful to have him to prevent prelest, which I am all too aware of the dangers there, having ventured too far on my own in ignorance in the past.

My Confessor is quite promising. He does indeed strive to keep an ear open to God at the same time, and at times has had insights that didn't come from my words. Unfortunately, he cannot guide me in prayer and wanted me to have someone else, which is why I do. He is a relatively young priest, I think maybe this is about his 9th year. But the archdiocese does recognize his promise, and he is indeed given more and more responsibility with them.

I'm thankful to have them both, but aware there are no staretsi available to me. To be honest, I'm not so sure I'm ready for a true one. But whether I ever meet one or not, we can be confident of the help received of the Holy Spirit ... God manages to give us what we need. I have been through long seasons of searching before, not always resolved in the ways I might have expected, but always with rich lessons I can see when looking back. Glory to God!