WOW !A brand new definition of FAST !
Not So Fast:
What about the RESURRECTION of the DEAD in Christ coming out of their graves that will happen just before the caught up to meet Jesus in the AIR ?
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Be Thankful for the Coming Pretribulation Rapture
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Not So Fast:
What about the RESURRECTION of the DEAD in Christ coming out of their graves that will happen just before the caught up to meet Jesus in the AIR ?
R. Hartono
Well-Known Member
Holy Spirit was sent on Pentecost Day 2000 years ago to replace Jesus, so the present Church Age is the Age of Holy Spirit began 2000 years ago.
And now Holy Spirit is working thru the Church.
When the Holy Spirit is removed the Church is also taken/raptured.
2 Thessalonians 2:7, “For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only He who now letteth will let, until He be taken out of the way.”
Its God who rule with the Holy Spirit, not us.
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The problem is that the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13, and the New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.
Therefore, the "Church Age" cannot end before the Second Coming of Christ.
God is not going back to an "obsolete" covenant during a future time with Moses as the mediator, instead of Christ.
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Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.
Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.
1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."
2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
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God raptures the church pretrib. Then He deals with the 12 tribes. What seems to be the issue. You know that Israel must accept Jesus as the Messiah to reap the benefits of the covenant. Why can't you see what is clearly written?
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Because the words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove that chapter 5 is connected to chapter 4. Therefore, the timing of the event at the end of chapter 4 is found at the beginning of chapter 5 on the day of the Lord, when He comes as a thief. This same language is found in 2 Peter 3:10 and Revelation 16:15-16. This clearly shows it to be a Second Coming event.
We also have the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, being fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.
These passages prove your entire Two Peoples of God/ Two Comings of Christ doctrine to be in error.
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1 Thes 5
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
And this proves there is more than one time and one season.
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R. Hartono
Well-Known Member
The church age will end when Jesus take the wise virgins to the Feast of the Lamb and the FOOLISH VIRGINS LEFT in the tribulation.
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Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
Since the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete" and the New Covenant is "everlasting", the wise virgins are taken at the Second Coming of Christ.
The New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ never ends.
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Really...
G5550
χρόνος
chronos
khron'-os
Of uncertain derivation; a space of time (in genitive case, and thus properly distinguished from G2540, which designates a fixed or special occasion; and from G165, which denotes a particular period) or interval; by extension an individual opportunity; by implication delay: - + years old, season, space, (X often-) time (-s), (a) while.
Total KJV occurrences: 53
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
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R. Hartono
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Thats right, thats why Jesus will take the Wise virgins to the Feast of the Lamb while the foolish shall be left in the Tribulation, when the 7 seals are opened which start the FINAL WEEK (7 years) of Daniel's.
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Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church.
Therefore, those above are members of the Church.
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We see below that the summary of Daniel 9:24 was fulfilled by Christ during the first century.
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
(From the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-34)
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
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Based on the passages below the Gospel was taken to Daniel's people for about 7 years, before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles. This was the 70th week of Daniel.
Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Gal 1:14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Gal 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
Gal 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
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Once a person comes to understand that the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, the Two Peoples of God doctrine falls apart and its pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.
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R. Hartono
Well-Known Member
Not everybody will be a martyr under the Altar, the great multitude have came out of the tribulation
Rev 7:14 These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Its up to you not to believe that, God doesnt force you,
what will you do in the grief tribulation ? to refuse the mark of the beast ?
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You cannot come out of a room, unless you have been in the room.
You cannot come out of tribulation, unless you have been in tribulation.
Are you saying that if I do not agree with the Pretrib doctrine I will be "Left Behind"?
Those "taken" in Matthew chapter 24 are like those "taken" during the flood of Noah.
They are destroyed.
In the parable of the wheat at tares it is the tares that are "taken" first and burned in the fire, while the wheat is gathered into the barn.
If necessary, I will do the same as those in Revelation 12:11.
Jesus Christ saved my immortal soul.
He did not save my flesh body from death.
All of the Apostles but John were murdered for our faith.
Are you more concerned about your flesh or your soul?
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R. Hartono
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May i remind you that Noah has escaped the punishment and so it will happen again when Jesus come, the church will be removed.
Matt 24:37 As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man
Why are you denying this ?:
Rev 7:14 These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
What exactly do you want it to be as per your version ?
Do you want to get beheaded in the tribulation ? do you dare ?
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Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
Mat 24:39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
Mat 24:40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
If read in context, those "taken" in the passage above are destroyed.
Tim LaHaye did not even get the title right for his books and movies.
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R. Hartono
Well-Known Member
WHY WOULD GOD DESTROY PEOPLE THAT HE TAKES ?
Lord oh Lord, i'm speechless, its totally mocking
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What did Jesus say?
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
The tares are gathered first.
Then the wheat is gathered into the barn.
Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Do you have ears to hear?
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R. Hartono
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The left behind in the world will be burnt with the 7 Seal, 7 Trumpets and 7 Vials and then after 7 years the Saints will return from heaven to rule the earth.
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If it were not for the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, you might be able to get some people to believe the false Two Peoples of God doctrine, along with its pretrib removal of the Church.
Cut these passages out of your Bible and maybe you can make it work...
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R. Hartono
Well-Known Member
Its no use for us to debate, lets just wait for Lord Jesus to fulfill His words.
Luke 12:37 "Blessed are those servants whom the Master will find on the alert when He comes; truly I say to you, that He will gird himself to serve, and have them recline at the table, and will come up and wait on them.
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