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Be Prepared, The Coming Years will be Filled With Strife

Discussion in 'The Ancient Way - Eastern Orthodox' started by GoingByzantine, Nov 20, 2019.

  1. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    I never said folks can't consider the possibility, I only said there is no hard evidence that I have seen, and I am not going to say he was one until I see some hard evidence.
     
  2. rusmeister

    rusmeister A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian

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    As a hypothesis which I think we are bound to consider, it does go a good ways towards explaining the direction the EP and Phanar have been going in for the better part of the last century.
    Not that I think the Russian Church or other Churches in a state of blooming health.
    “The shadow of one dark wing is over all Tellus.”
     
  3. Euodius

    Euodius Are you kitten me right meow? Supporter

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    Russia is still dealing with Sergianism - hence why they are building the "Great Patriotic War" cathedral. Sad that St. Herman's is censoring out works about what happened with Russia...

    As for the others, I'm afraid I've found it difficult to find information about what's up with them. WCC is certainly a negative influence (and no Orthodox Church should have a part with them and their Sophia worship.)
     
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  4. Euodius

    Euodius Are you kitten me right meow? Supporter

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    The impact remains the same whether he is a formal member of a lodge or not. We are in a point of time where the culture has largely given way to the Western Esotericism that was/is taught by the lodges. Joel Olsteen and Oprah claim to be Christian and have many followers making the same claim, yet their teaching most closely follows Madame Blavatsky's Theosophy. It is largely accurate to say that, as Fr. Seraphim Rose did in several of his books, that Western Realism is the equivalent of Bolshevism or Nazism - all three of which have the same ultimate reason for being that is sourced from Western Esotericism.

    We already see in Athenagoras, that he served as a CIA asset, and so he had divided himself between two masters at the very least and he not only preached that Western Realism that Fr. Seraphim warned us of - but was also an active agent for it in the world and in the Church.

    But we should also remember this;

    "There are two kinds of heretics: Those whom the Church has put on trial and has convicted and excised from Her Body, and those who have neither been convicted as yet by the Church, nor have left the Church of their own volition, but instead have remained in the Body of the Church. One such case is the case of the Patriarch. Patriarch Athenagoras has preached heretical beliefs. But he has not been convicted yet by the Church, nor has he renounced the Church and removed himself from Her. He has remained inside the Church and continues to minister inside the Church and consequently, he is still a channel of Grace; He performs Sacraments." (- Archimandrite and canonist Epiphanius of Athens in his letter to Fr Nicodemos ( 22 July 1971))

    The question is how do we view this history in the light of the Spirit and in the mind of the Fathers in order to deal with the problems of today.
     
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  5. rusmeister

    rusmeister A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian

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    While I don’t want to pretend that I am absolutely sure about the charges against Pat. A., I AM absolutely sure that at all levels people are teaching and believing contrary to definitive Church teaching and Tradition as established throughout history, and this seems like an extraordinarily likely case.

    I took part in a talk in a small group at my church on Sunday with my priest (the one being treated for cancer). The issue that began the discussion was unity in the Church, as per the Scripture reading. I expressed my concern about lack of unity over teachings that had always been settled in Christian history, both affirmed by the fathers and by the common people.i was asked to bring an example, and I brought the one most obvious to me in our parish: marriage and divorce. (I felt it unfortunate that one of the ladies who had divorced from her fellow parishioner was present, I didn’t want her to feel personally judged.) What it all came down to was that the defenders of modern divorce (and other things) in the Church hold, consciously or not, that our will is irrelevant, that if things get difficult enough we cannot fail to bow to our emotions and a priest must give economia to divorce because otherwise his parishioners will commit murder or suicide. While I do find in Tradition that a person who who cannot contain should marry, that not all are given to perfectly carry out the best ideal, and to them a lesser ideal that is still good is prescribed, I am unaware of the approval of small sin that a bigger sin might not be committed. And I made clear that I was not talking about people outside the Church, or our fallen lives prior to the Church, but only of those who say “I want to follow Christ. What must I do to be saved?”, who are now in the Church and trying to live that life.

    The point here is not marriage or divorce, but about how modern thought has infiltrated the Church, causing us to say and think things that we imagine are compatible with Tradition, but in fact are not. And that thinking is infiltrating on the pastoral level, not just from the laity. Many of us are, consciously or not, “meliorists”, my coined term for the modern heresy of thinking that we know better than the fathers, than their consensus, and that of Christians of the past in general, because of modern science, our modern educations, iPhones, the internet, and so on. (Melio, or meglio, means “better”) If, for example, you trust modern psychology as much, or more, than what the Church taught for two millennia, then you are a meliorist.
     
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  6. Rusviking876

    Rusviking876 New Member

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    It's not a Slavic-Greek split as much as it is a Greek-everyone else split. Didn't the Georgian and Romanian church and the Patriarch of Jerusalem side with Moscow? They aren't Slavic.
     
  7. E.C.

    E.C. Well-Known Member

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    I can see how being allied with Rome would have been tempting during the Crusader era or even during the last century of Ottoman rule. Unfortunately, I don't see there being much benefit to stay with Rome (other than tradition) in the modern era. Even the three Assyrian Churches (one under Rome, the other two on their own) have been talking about reuniting as one autocephalous Church, without Rome, in the last few years; most of it brought on by the passing of Mar Dhinka IV and the suffering in Iraq. I think Christianity in the Middle East would be able to survive a lot more cohesively, if not thrive, if the Eastern Catholics came back to Orthodoxy.

    Why do the Melkites remain with Rome today? I'm just curious and not trying to start a fight.


    I think they did side with Moscow.

    Georgia had their patriarchate office abolished in the early 1800s when the Russians took over. They're autocephaly and patriarchal office wasn't restored until the Bolshevik Revolution. Which is why Patriarch Ilia's response to the Ukraine matter basically came down to "what are you in a hurry for? We had to wait 100 years!"
     
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  8. Stabat

    Stabat Stat Crux, dum volvitur orbis Supporter

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    Doesn't that depend on how you see it and how you define prevail? If you mean getting smaller and smaller through schisms then yes, she has prevailed. I'm saddened that this happens to Orthodoxy, I truely am.

    With the risk of sounding to hegelian, it seems as if this is a spirit in our time. Just look at the Latin church and pope Francis. Its increasing inner rifts and new issues are arising every day.
    As the OP pointed out, this is happening in the east aswell. It's just sad altogether.

    I just wish that i woke up one day and we were all one again. One shepherd, one flock.
    Division only serves the devil and not our christian witness.

    I'm praying for the church of the east. May Patriarch Bartholomew regain his lost wisdom and put an end to this stupid argument
     
  9. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    but this is nothing new. the Church has always come out richer after these issues. it's nothing new. and even if Orthodoxy gets shrunk down to only a few faithful clergy and their people, she's just as full as she has ever been.

    I wish we were one too, but I don't think it'll ever happen. we are way too different.
     
  10. Stabat

    Stabat Stat Crux, dum volvitur orbis Supporter

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    Sadly that's true. Whenever I'm reading catholic apologetics or orthodox apologetics I'm always struck by the same sense. You know, the sense of pride and nonexistent theological humbleness.
    It goes for both parties as I see it.

    Neither one of us could ever be able to admit interpreting anything erroneously in the past. I know that you'll defend Orthodoxy and I know that most well grounded and devote catholic priests would do the same for catholicism.

    I once read about the council of Florence (two books, one EO and one RCC) and I remember how they both started off by saying that the important matter was truth and not to be correct themselves.

    Then they both went on to label one another heretical and made absurdums out of their counterparts theological objections.
    It was a sad display of hubris. This goes for both sides of the divide.

    Individuals may realise a greater truth elsewhere, but large bodies such as the church seems unable to admit errors. Satan fills us with pride and it only increases with power.

    I believe we're still one in many ways though. I know alot of Orthodox believers and I know that they consider Catholics to be separated brethren and most Catholics sees it likewise.

    Doctrinal unity however seems hopeless. The two schools of thoughts are just to different I guess.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2019
  11. LizaMarie

    LizaMarie Newbie

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    I've always had a feeling the Church will be one again but much much smaller right before the 2nd coming through the trial of persecution and martyrdom.
     
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  12. Stabat

    Stabat Stat Crux, dum volvitur orbis Supporter

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    Perhaps it's all the devote Christians that are left, shattered around the world in their own denominations, coming together to flee persecution?

    Where else should we go then, but to the source? By source I'm talking about some kind of Orthodoxy obviously.
     
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  13. Stabat

    Stabat Stat Crux, dum volvitur orbis Supporter

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    That would actually be a real blessing in disguise.
     
  14. LizaMarie

    LizaMarie Newbie

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    This is weird but I've always believed(hoped) that someday-maybe not in my lifetime(I'm early '60's) that there would be a separation first between a world church which has clearly compromised with the world and true orthodox(small o) Christians. Then I think under severe persecution the Protestant sects will either return to Holy Orthodoxy or Rome to get under the wing of Apostolic Protection. Then Rome and Orthodox will reunite. Maybe not in a visible way with a splash of celebration like the world does, but under persecution in the catecombs and underground. it seems so impossible now but I've always believed Jesus will return for one united Church. I'm confessional Lutheran but I am inquiring into orthodoxy and was seriously looking at the RCC at one time.
     
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  15. Stabat

    Stabat Stat Crux, dum volvitur orbis Supporter

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    Only God knows how many days He will bless me with (im 29), but I believe that those in my generation who gets to live long lives will see something like this happening.
    The raise of Islam and secularism provides a need for someone to blame and to "take it all out on".
    I believe traditional Christians will be a very suitable choice.

    Surely the distaste for Christ and "the old world" provokes the enlightenment inspired ideology. Besides as more and more churches grow benign towards globalism and religious syncretism we'll grow to become a more and more pain in the ass of the society.

    It's only a matter of time I believe. Persecution doesnt come over night, but it slowly gains momentum.
    We traditionalists have much more in common than we like to admit. I'd rather be called a heretic by a Orthodox priest for my belief in Transubstantiation than a unloving apostate by a gaylobbist cloathed in modern Catholicism.

    It's better that we have our souls ignited by a love and passion for Christ than indifference. The fact that we're arguing and going off at one another at times only proves our love for Christ.
    Its passion and love that are burning in our hearts and we seek to know him as best we can do.

    The lukewarm only cares about cozy sweet talk. They dont give a ### about theology or knowledge of our God as long as we're friends.
    Well, this is spiritual death coated in sugar frosting.

    I too believe that we'll once again be united, but for that to happen the world must up its persecution and it does.
     
  16. LizaMarie

    LizaMarie Newbie

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    oops wrong post.
     
  17. LizaMarie

    LizaMarie Newbie

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    Agree with this completely.
     
  18. Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

    Jude1:3Contendforthefaith Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Lord Jesus Christ God In The Name Of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit Please Keep The Church Together and help The Patriarchal Bishops to make the right decisions amen.


    .
     
  19. “Paisios”

    “Paisios” Unworthy servant of God Supporter

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    (As an aside, am I right in thinking this is from CS Lewis’ That Hideous Strength? Maybe when Ransom was speaking to Merlin?)
     
  20. rusmeister

    rusmeister A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian

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    Yep.
     
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