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BASIC TRUTH I

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Theologyofone, May 11, 2021.

  1. Theologyofone

    Theologyofone New Member

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    You did not choose God. You were chosen by God
    Eph. 1:4, Galatians 4:9, John 6:44
    Salvation is:

    Jesus reaches out to you and in that moment, He shatters your defenses and, in that moment, you will understand that you are completely known by God, completely loved.

    Luther says this about when you are awakened by Christ,
    “When God works in us, the will, being changed and sweetly breathed upon by the Spirit of God, desires and acts, not from compulsion, but responsively.”

    At that moment we understand who Christ is and who we are in Him, this is conversion, this is born again, this is salvation.

    “Salvation come from God, it is a God only work, “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God” Romans 10:17

    We are sowers and waters of the seed (Word) brothers and sisters let us preach, teach the Word of God.

    Theologyofone
     
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  2. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    You are not addressing the simple logical Loving fair just way God determines who He showers with all these unbelievable gifts.
     
  3. Theologyofone

    Theologyofone New Member

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    And what is that?
     
  4. FaithWillDo

    FaithWillDo Member

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    Dear Theologyofone,
    I do agree that God "chooses" us. But in this present age, God has only chosen the First Fruits (the Elect) of His harvest to be saved now. But they are only first - in the final age, the rest of mankind will be saved, too.

    1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time

    Christ is the Savior and He loves us all. Since our salvation is 100% His work, no one will be left out.

    1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    Only the timing of our salvation varies. The Elect are saved now in this age and everyone else will be saved in the final age.

    Also, our salvation requires Christ giving us both the Early AND Latter Rain of the Spirit. Most Christians have only received the Early Rain of Spirit. They are spiritually blind and remain under the Law. Since Christ has only chosen a "few" to be saved, most of them will die in their sins and be judged with the unbelievers.

    Paul's conversion is the "type" (pattern) for our salvation. The Early Rain came to Paul on the Damascus Road and then the Latter Rain came to Paul three days later in Damascus. The Latter Rain is what the apostles received on the Day of Pentecost in the upper room.

    When Christ first calls us out from the world, the new believer only receives the Early Rain of the Spirit and it is not enough save them. They are left spiritually blind and carnally minded. But for those chosen, Christ will "come again" and when He comes this second time, He will bring salvation to them. This is the Latter Rain. This is when conversion happens. This is when we are "born again". This is the Day of the Lord when Christ comes as a "thief in the night" to destroy the "worse creature" (Man of Sin) we have become under Satan's deceptions. From this point onward, the Law can no longer accuse us of sin and we start feeding on the truth of Christ for the first time.

    Joe
     
  5. Theologyofone

    Theologyofone New Member

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    By those passages
    you believe that all men will be saved.
     
  6. Theologyofone

    Theologyofone New Member

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    So you believe all men will be saved. All men that includes before Christ and after Christ evry person born.
     
  7. FaithWillDo

    FaithWillDo Member

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    Dear Theologyofone,
    Mankind's salvation is 100% the work of Christ. He was sent by the Father to save the world:

    1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

    and this verse says that it will be testified to be true in "due time":

    1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

    "Due time" is two ages of time (this present age and the final age).

    Knowing the nature and power of God, how could Christ fail to save even one person??? He can't fail or it would be a sin. Most people believe that Christ will fail because they believe that our salvation is not 100% the work of Christ. They believe that we must contribute some portion of work in order to be saved. But that is not scripturally true. In fact, the opposite is true. If a person believes that they must contribute any work toward their salvation, then they are mixing "works" and "grace". When a believer mixes these two, they fall away from Grace and back to being under the Law. If they are under the Law, they are not saved. But "falling away" happens to everyone who is called. It is part of the pathway to salvation that Christ causes us to travel.

    In this present age, Christ is ONLY saving the First Fruits of His harvest of mankind. They are called the chosen Elect, the Saints, the Overcomers, those whom the "ends of the ages have come", etc. The rest of mankind, which includes all fallen away Christians, unbelievers and those who have never heard, will be saved in the final age. Most people believe that the Lake of Fire in Revelation is literal fire and that it lasts "for ever and ever". But both beliefs are false. The Lake of Fire is a spiritual symbol for Christ's judgment. Also, the Greek word "aionios" is mistranslated. Aionios is the adjective form of "aion" which means "age". In the adjective form, it means age-enduring. It can never mean "for ever and ever".

    Christ's judgment is not like mankind's judgment. Christ's judgment is done in love for the purpose of teaching us righteousness.

    Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

    Psa 9:8 And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.

    Psa 33:5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.

    Prov 28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

    Even the Elect in this present age are judged. But from that judgment, they are purified and made righteous.

    This is what Paul said about salvation and the end of all things:

    1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    Did you read it carefully? Did you notice that it says ALL who died in Adam is the same ALL who will be made alive in Christ. Who can that possibly leave out? Also, how can God be "all in all" if most of mankind is unsaved and literally burning in fire for all eternity?

    Christ has a plan to save all mankind and it is presented in scripture. But to see it and accept it, Christ must do His work within you first. His work is "spiritual" and the "spiritual" happens within us. When He comes to us, He does so without our asking and He gives us spiritual gifts whether we want them or not. If He did it any other way, no one would be saved because of what these two verses say:

    Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

    Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    God is in complete control of mankind's destiny. We have an illusion of "free will" but it is just an illusion:

    Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

    Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

    Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

    When Christ decides to save a person, He comes to them without them asking. When He comes, He brings them the gifts of the Holy Spirit and faith. Paul is said to be the "pattern" whereby all will be saved.

    1Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

    Christ came to Him on the Damascus Road at a time Paul (then Saul) was traveling to Damascus to persecute Christians. Paul hated Christ at that time. But immediately upon Christ appearing with the "Early Rain", Paul fell to his knees and called Him "Lord". Scripture says that no man can call Jesus "Lord" but by the power of the Holy Spirit. Then three days later in Damascus, Paul received the Latter Rain and was born again. That is when Saul became Paul.

    I could quote you many, many other verses that state what I just presented to you above. But if you cannot believe the ones I posted, you most likely would not believe the others. If you do reject what I have present above, your rejection is not a criticism of you. Your rejection is simply because Christ has not prepared your heart to receive it at this time.

    Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

    The only recourse we have is to pray for Christ to open our eyes and give us understanding. Scripture says that God is the giver of good gifts, we merely need to ask.

    Luke 11:9-13 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

    Joe
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2021
  8. Theologyofone

    Theologyofone New Member

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    I am in agreement that salvation is a 100% the work of Christ but not all amnkind will be saved. Ephesian 1:4 tell us that there are chosen some
    According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: also only Jesus sheep will here his voice

    But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. John 10:26-29

    Many more passage that pertain to only the elect will become sons of God. Not all people. Yes Jesus sacrifice is sufficient for all but the Grace of God and the mercy of God will go to those who are called (the Elect) Roman 9:18 therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. it is God choice. Read my first blog post the Forgotten Atonement. Forgotten Atonement By Miguel X Chavarria (theologyofone)
     
  9. Butterball1

    Butterball1 Well-Known Member

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    Such ideas make God culpable for the lost and a respecter of persons when He is neither.

    2 Thessalonians 2:13 "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"

    Men are not randomly, unconditionally chosen apart from the word of God, but men are CONDITIONALLY chosen "through sancitification of the Spirit and belief of the truth"

    To be of the chosen requires men have a "belief of the truth", contrasted to those who believe not in 2 Thessalonians 2:12. Therefore man has a role in his own salvation, a role in being chosen by fulfilling the obligation, the command to "believe" (Acts of the Apostles 16:31).

    In John 3:5 the new birth contians 2 elements; 1) Spirit and 2) water. The role of the SPirit is His written word that teaches men how to be saved those who believe in obeying those instructions become of the chosen they are in that sense said to be born again by the word 1 Peter 1:23. The role of water is water baptism. Thoe that believe the Spirit's word and obey the instructions to be water baptized are born again, of the chosen.

    John 3:5-----------Spirit++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>born again/saved
    2 Thess 2:13------Spirit++++++++++belief of truth>>>>>>>chosen/saved

    So the SPirit and the word play a role in a person being born again/chosen. Again the Spirit's role is His written word that instructs men on how to be saved and man's beief and obedience to that word in submitting to water baptism.

    So no man was individually, unconditionally, randomly chosen before the world began apart from the Spirit's word nor apart from belief and obedience to that word.

    Ephesians 1:4 "chosen us in him" so being chosen is not random or unconditional but CONDITIONALLY "in Him". Again, those who are obey the word in submitting to water baptism are the only ones that are "in Him".

    Therefore to be born again, be of the chosen requires;
    1) be born of the SPirit - the Spirit's word and obedience to that word
    2) born of water - water baptized obeying the Spirit's instructions in His word


    A Calvinist on another forum claimed one can be chosen but not saved. Yet there is no such thing in the BIble as chosen but not saved or saved but not chosen. Chosen and saved are synonymous terms.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2021
  10. FaithWillDo

    FaithWillDo Member

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    Dear Theologyofone,
    Your incorrect "worldview" of Christ is causing you to reject the clear teachings of the scriptures that I presented. Christ is ONLY saving the First Fruits of His harvest of mankind in this age. They are the heirs to the promise. Only the heirs (chosen believers) are His "sheep" and they are the only ones who hear His voice. Why? Because they are the only ones who were predestined from the foundation of the world and who have been given "ears that can hear".

    Rev 2:29 He who has ears, let him give ear to what the Spirit says to the churches.

    If Christ does not come to person and give them the ability to understand, they cannot be saved. This is how Christ causes only His First Fruits to be saved in this present age.

    Here is Christ's teaching on how a person receives spiritual understanding:

    Mark 8:15-21 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. 16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread. 17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? 18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? 19 When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve. 20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven. 21 And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?

    In these verses, Christ is giving His disciples a lesson on spiritual language - His language. At this point in time (before Pentecost), the disciples have not received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and were spiritually blind. They simply could not understand what Christ was teaching them. After Christ’s short lesson, He ends it by asking them this question: “How is it that ye do not understand”? No response is recorded in scripture, however, Christ answers His own question in the very next 4 verses.

    Mark 8:22-25 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. 23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. 24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. 25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

    Christ speaks to us not only through His words which are recorded in scripture but also by the things that He did. In answering the question that He proposed to the disciples in verse 21, He goes to Bethsaida and gives us His answer through the type and shadow of His healing of a blind man.

    In these verses, Christ leads a blind man out of the city. Once outside the city, Christ places spit on his eyes and touches him with His hands. These actions occur as the blind man is looking down which symbolizes that the blind man remains carnally minded. The “spit” (water) symbolizes the blind man receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit with its accompanying vision (eyes, understanding). After Christ asks him what he could see, the blind man looks up and says that he could see men walking as trees. "Walking as trees" is a symbol for Called Out believers of which the blind man is now one. The man’s blindness was not total any longer but he was still very near-sighted. This “first healing” of the blind man reflects our spiritual condition when we first enter the Church. At that time, we are left carnally minded and spiritually near-sighted. Peter says this condition is the same as being blind:

    2Pet 4:19 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

    In the final verse of the story, Christ lays His hands upon the man’s eyes again but this time, Christ has the man “look up”. This second healing represents the Latter Rain of the Spirit (second coming of Christ) when true spiritual vision is given to the believer. The man’s upward gaze represents this heavenly aspect of the healing in contrast to the carnal aspect when the blind man was looking down. From that moment onward, we know that the blind man is a Called and Chosen believer. With the Latter Rain of the Spirit, He now has ears that can hear and eyes that can see.

    If Christ wanted to saved all mankind in this age, He could easily do it. But His plan during this age is to only save the First Fruits of His harvest. But in the end, everyone will accept Christ as Lord:

    Isa 45:22-23 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

    Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    God has "sworn by myself" that everyone will be saved, but His plan to do so is hidden.

    Ecc 3:11 He (God) has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does, that which God does from the beginning to the end.

    If a called out believer is chosen, Christ will come to them a second time and give them the Latter Rain.
    It takes both the Early AND Latter Rain to be saved:

    Jam 5:7-8 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the EARLY and LATTER RAIN. 8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

    The Latter Rain is only given to His chosen Elect. They are the only ones who are harvested in this age. They are His workmanship and His First Fruits.

    How can anyone else be saved? They can't be. This is the "patience of the saints". We MUST wait on the Lord to complete His work in all mankind and only then will God be "all in all".

    Joe
     
  11. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    God is sending out His servants to invite everyone to His banquet, some people are just to macho, willing to pay the piper, and willing to accept the punishment they fully deserve, so they refuse to humble themselves to the point of accepting pure undeserved charity. There are others who are wimps, given up on self, and are willing to humbly accept pure undeserved charity as charity from their hated enemy (God), even why they are still hating God. AFTER the hater of God is showered with unbelievable wonderful gifts (including forgiveness, eternal life, fellowship, being a child of a new family and given a purpose), then out of a gratitude type of Love (Godly type Love) they are motivated to be a child of God.
     
  12. FaithWillDo

    FaithWillDo Member

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    Dear bling,
    Your understanding of the nature of mankind is not correct. In our spiritually flawed, spiritually blind, carnal condition we all have from birth, no one will ever seek out God or accept Christ as Lord.

    Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

    Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    Ecc 3:11 He (God) has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does, that which God does from the beginning to the end.

    The ONLY hope for mankind to know God and accept Christ as Lord is for Christ to come to each of us and heal our spiritual blindness and give us the gifts of faith and the Holy Spirit. Without those gifts, no one could be saved. When He gives us those gifts, we are born again.

    Do you not know that Paul's conversion is the pattern of how Christ saves a person? And because it is the pattern, a great deal of detail of Paul's conversion is presented in scripture.

    Here is a very summarized version of Saul's conversion:

    Saul (before he was Paul) hated Christ and was on his way to Damascus to persecute Christians. But all that changed when Christ came to Saul on the Damascus Road when Christ appeared and gave Saul the Early Rain (an earnest amount of the Spirit). Then Saul became blind (typing our spiritual blindness) and had to be lead by the hand (by other spiritual blind persons). He lay in bed in Damascus for 3 days (the number 3 is a symbol for a spiritual process). During those three days, all called out believers will "fall away" and spiritually die. Then if they are "chosen" by Christ, Christ will come a second time to them and give them the Latter Rain. When Saul received the Latter Rain after his 3 days were complete, Christ came to Him again and healed his blindness and he was "born again". At this time, Saul's name changed to Paul.

    Our conversion is 100% the work of Christ. If we are not chosen to be in Christ's harvest of First Fruits in this age, then He will do His work within us during the final age. By the end of that final age, all mankind will be saved. Scripture proclaims that Christ is mankind's Savior and He will not fail anyone.

    Joe
     
  13. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    You are either not reading what I said or I am not explaining myself well enough to you.

    You are suggesting I am saying: The unbelieving sinner is “will ever seek out God or accept Christ as Lord” and that is not what I said at all!!!

    The unbelieving sinner is doing nothing “worthy, noble, righteous, honorable or holy”.

    The unbelieving sinner can for very selfish (selfishness being sinful, so not righteous) make a choice to either be a good soldier (soldier of satan), hang in there, be willing to pay the piper for his sinful ways, and accept the punishment he fully deserves or he/she can wimp out, give up and surrender. When a soldier surrenders, he is not joining his enemy and hates his enemy all the way, but a surrendering soldier for very selfish undeserving reasons is willing to accept charity from his enemy. The soldier is not seeking out his enemy unless it is to kill Him.

    This is very similar to the prodigal son story where the son turns to the father not out of “love” for the father, but for the unnoble reason of wanting an undeserving job to survive, when he really should have paid the price for his wicked ways and starved to death in the pigsty (that is what he deserved).

    Only after God showers the surrendering soldier with undeserved wonderful gifts can the soldier do something righteous.

    Paul is definitely one of a kind: There are no fanatical religious true followers of a God with a clear conscience, accepting the God given correct doctrine, running around murdering Christians not realize God has changed the Doctrine, so the Old Law is no longer valid. Paul could have still made the free will choice, reasoning: it was lightning, falling off his horse and sun blindness that caused this nightmare vision he had and kept his position.
     
  14. FaithWillDo

    FaithWillDo Member

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    Dear bling,

    You said:
    You are suggesting I am saying: The unbelieving sinner is “will ever seek out God or accept Christ as Lord” and that is not what I said at all!!!

    I assume you meant to say "never seek out" and not "ever seek out". Scripture says that no one will ever seek out God. The only solution is for Christ to come to us and give us the Holy Spirit and faith. The offer of forgiveness, eternal life, fellowship will never cause anyone to seek out and accept Christ. There are no scriptures that support that belief.

    What scripture does say is that mankind is spiritually flawed and carnally minded. Unless Christ "prepares our heart", gives us the "answer from our tongue" and gives us the Holy Spirit, we would NEVER call Him "Lord".

    Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

    1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

    This event when Christ comes to and "calls out" an unbeliever is called the Early Rain. It is only at this time that unbeliever receives an "earnest amount of the Holy Spirit" and calls Christ "Lord".

    You said:
    The unbelieving sinner can for very selfish (selfishness being sinful, so not righteous) make a choice to either be a good soldier (soldier of satan), hang in there, be willing to pay the piper for his sinful ways, and accept the punishment he fully deserves or he/she can wimp out, give up and surrender. When a soldier surrenders, he is not joining his enemy and hates his enemy all the way, but a surrendering soldier for very selfish undeserving reasons is willing to accept charity from his enemy. The soldier is not seeking out his enemy unless it is to kill Him.

    None of what you stated is supported by scripture. It comes from the reasoning of carnal mankind who believes that they can make choices contrary to the will of God. No one can make a "choice" to accept Christ as Lord unless Christ FIRST gives them the Early Rain. That is what scripture teaches.

    Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

    Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, Thou appointest peace to us, For, all our works also Thou hast wrought for us.

    Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

    John 1:12–13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, BUT OF GOD.

    Mankind has a "will" but it is controlled by God. When a person receives Christ, is not because of their "free will" to choose Him, it is 100% because it was God's will for it to happen.

    You said:
    This is very similar to the prodigal son story where the son turns to the father not out of “love” for the father, but for the unnoble reason of wanting an undeserving job to survive, when he really should have paid the price for his wicked ways and starved to death in the pigsty (that is what he deserved).

    This parable is not teaching on the pathway to salvation. It is teaching "the first will be last and the last will be first".

    Matt 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

    The "first born" son (Nation of Israel) was first to be "called". They have remained in the field trying to earn their salvation through the Law while the second born son (Gentiles) will become the heir (received the ring). Only at the end will the Father come out to the First Son and invite him in from the fields into the house (Kingdom of Heaven). It is not teaching the pathway to Salvation, only the order of Salvation as it relates to the Nation of Israel and the Gentiles. You are reading into the story something that is not taught.

    You said:
    Only after God showers the surrendering soldier with undeserved wonderful gifts can the soldier do something righteous.

    Yes, it is only after God showers the unbeliever with gifts BUT those gifts are repentance, faith and the Holy Spirit which are given at the time of the Early Rain.

    You said:
    Paul is definitely one of a kind: There are no fanatical religious true followers of a God with a clear conscience, accepting the God given correct doctrine, running around murdering Christians not realize God has changed the Doctrine, so the Old Law is no longer valid. Paul could have still made the free will choice, reasoning: it was lightning, falling off his horse and sun blindness that caused this nightmare vision he had and kept his position.

    Paul was the "chief of sinners". If God can call and change him in a moment of time, then the rest of mankind will not be a problem for God either. Also, Paul could not have made a "free will" choice other than the choice he made. God caused Paul's "will" (prepared his heart) to comply with His "will". It was not by force but by God's Spirit indwelling Paul. Everyone will be saved in this manner. Once a person is given the Holy Spirit, they will not "call Jesus accused".

    1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God CALLETH JESUS ACCURSED: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

    ALL mankind will be saved ONLY BECAUSE it is God's will for it to happen - the Elect/FirstFruits/Heirs in this present age are first, then the rest of mankind in the final age with the Nation of Israel being last after the fullness of the Gentiles are brought into the Kingdom (just as the parable of the Prodigal Son teaches).

    John 1:12–13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, BUT OF GOD.

    And this is God's will:
    1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

    Isa 45:22-23 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

    Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


    Do you have enough faith to believe that God can accomplish this great work of saving mankind?

    Joe
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2021
  15. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    I am and have been in agreement with what you are saying, with the exception of Jesus giving only some “faith”. Christ’s increases our “faith” and “faithfulness” which in the Greek are both the same word, so you have to study the context to know which English word would best fit in the context.

    All mature adults are gifted by God with “a” faith which allows them to put their trust in idols, gods, people and things. The “saving faith” comes when the person directs this God given “faith” they have been gifted with toward the Creator’s Love, just enough to hope for a little undeserved help/charity/Love/mercy/grace/forgiveness.

    Do you believe an unbelieving sinner cannot put their trust in an idol?


    Again! You make the choice to be between Christ or not Christ, which is not what I have even been suggesting.

    Are you saying an unbelieving sinner cannot choose occasionally which sin he is going to do? That would mean God programmed the unbelieving sinner to do each sin every time, meaning the sinner is not responsible for sinning and God is responsible?

    We agree the sinner will sin, but by his own will he sins the sins he does, so it is his choice?


    You say: “When a person receives Christ…” but do not explain how God chooses the person to have the ability to receive Christ and never suggest the person with the ability could refuse to accept Christ of their own “will”.

    We repeatedly hear in scripture God wanting everyone, all people, all the world, whosoever, so we know God’s desire for everyone, so the limitation is with man, but it is not with man’s ability, but with man’s just accepting the invitation, which is not a “work”, but a mental acceptance (a thought).


    I am not trying to explain the parable at all, but just using the prodigal son story to understand a similar surrounding all big-time sinners are in because of their actions, the very sinful younger son does not deserve anything from his actions including turning to the father/God for just some kind of undeserved life.


    Sorry, but the surrendering soldier has nothing more than all the other soldiers at the time he decides to surrender, while others are still fighting and will never surrender. At the point of his surrendering, he does not have the Spirit, faithfulness nor a desire to be God’s child, those come with the showering.


    You do not know if Paul could make a free will choice to not accept, yet God did know the choice he made.


    After the father of the prodigal son pleated for the older son to join them, we have no answer given. Those three parables were directly said to the Pharisees in response to: 2 But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.”

    These Pharisees and teachers of the Law are left to give their answer: “Will they join the party?”


    The issue has never been with God’s power and Love to do His part in saving everyone. The issue is with man’s willingness to humbly accept pure undeserved charity. It is man’s choice, since God is not going to hold a shotgun over us and force us to accept His Love (that would not be Loving on God’s part, nor would the “love” we received this way be Godly type Love.) Godly type Love cannot be made instinctive to man, since that would be a robotic type of love.

    This wonderful marvelous Godly type Love cannot be learned, developed, paid for, or paid back, so it has to initially be part of an autonomous free will choice (to accept).
     
  16. FaithWillDo

    FaithWillDo Member

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    Dear bling,
    I really don't think we have much agreement at all.

    Let me explain more deeply what I am saying and then you should be able to see where we clearly disagree:

    Man's spiritual condition we have from birth is "flawed". It was NOT a mistake by God. We were made that way on purpose so that our "flesh" controls us. That is why we are carnally minded and why Christ in a physical body was not. Christ was spiritually perfect. In other words, Christ overcame this carnal world and never sinned whereas, mankind cannot.

    It is not man's fault that we sin. God is responsible for our spiritual condition that causes us to sin.

    So why did God make us spiritually flawed?

    Since this Creation is for God's purpose of producing His offspring (sons of God), He wants us to be "like" Him. And to be like Him, we must have a knowledge of "good and evil". God even created Satan to be our tempter and deceiver so that we would have a fuller experience of evil.

    Isa 45:5-7 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

    Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

    Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed evil and good?

    Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster (Satan) to destroy.

    In our spiritually flawed, carnally minded condition we ALL become sinful, evil creatures. That is why scripture says:

    Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    Mankind's carnal nature is "hatred" towards God. And because of such, we can't understand Him or want to seek His ways.

    On the other hand, Satan was created to fed upon the dust of the ground (Gen 3:14). The "dust of the ground" represents our carnal nature and that is why Satan works to destroy and deceive mankind.

    When Adam and Eve were created spiritually flawed, they quickly become carnally minded. God put Satan in the Garden to do his work of tempting Eve so that she would sin. Eve could not have possibly done anything else but fall to his temptations. Eve even displayed the three causes of sin BEFORE she sinned.

    Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food (lust of the flesh), and that it was pleasant to the eyes (lust of the eyes), and a tree to be desired to make one wise (pride of life), she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

    God, of course knew this and it was His plan all along for Adam and Eve to sin. And just as Adam and Eve sinned, so do all of their offspring. Mankind's sin was planned and caused by God so that we would experience evil. With God, "evil" is a tool that He uses for His good and righteous purposes. In this case, His purpose is to create His offspring who know good and evil.

    But since mankind's sin spiritually separates us from God and God wants children, He created a pathway for mankind to be restored to Himself. To accomplish that purpose, God the Father sent Christ:

    1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

    Acts 3:20-21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

    In our spiritually flawed, carnally minded condition, NO PERSON can be saved. We have all sinned and the penalty of sin is death (not eternal hell). The only solution is for mankind to be "born again" from the death we must pay. Our spiritually flawed vessel must be destroyed and made into a new spiritually perfect vessel.

    Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

    In our created spiritually flawed condition, we all reject God and cannot "choose" Him. There is nothing good within mankind. When you say that some people will accept Christ because of their ability to make a "free will" choice, you are wrong. No man has that ability. The only way we can "choose" Christ is for Christ to individually come to us and change us from within. He does this by giving us the Early Rain of the Spirit. When Christ does this work within us, we ALL fall to the ground and call Him "Lord" (just as Paul "typed" for us). NO EXCEPTIONS.

    1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

    But herein lays the GREAT mystery of the church (the called out ones). The Early Rain is only an "earnest amount" of the Holy Spirit. Because of such, we remain spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25) and are still controlled by our carnal natures. Satan then comes to us and deceives us. Satan masquerades as an "angel of light (Christ) and causes us to accept his false truth (Mat 13:33, Wheat and Tares parable). Since we are deceived, we believe that we are receiving the truth of God. Christ explained this process below:

    Mat 12:43-45 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation

    Evil spirits represent Satan's false truth. Since we remain spiritually blind after receiving the Early Rain, we cannot replace our false beliefs with God's truth. One "evil spirit" leaves but comes back with seven more since our house remains void of God's truth. Now, instead of "one evil spirit" within us, we now have EIGHT. The number eight spiritually represents a new spiritual condition. Our new spiritual condition is "worse than the first". This worsened spiritual condition is called the Man of Sin.

    After the Early Rain, our deadly head wound that came from the sword (Word of God) of Christ is healed. We then remain a part of the Seven-Headed Beast of Revelation. This Beast represents mankind in our spiritually flawed and carnally minded spiritual condition. At this point, we have truly "fallen away" and have returned to our own "works" for our salvation. This is the one and only sin that leads to our spiritual death. From this death, we cannot be renewed by repentance:

    Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

    The Doctrine of Free Will is the most common belief that causes us to "fall away". We use this false belief to differentiate us from why unbelievers are worthy of "hell" and why we are not. We falsely believe that we made the right "choice" from our supposed "free will". But in truth, we did not. It was Christ's work within us that caused us to accept Him as "Lord".

    What I have stated above is part of the pathway that leads to destruction. We ALL MUST and WILL travel it.

    Since a fallen away believer cannot be renewed by repentance, they will remain in this lost, spiritually worsened condition until either they physically die or Christ comes to them a second time. This is typed for us by Joshua and Caleb and Israel wandering in the wilderness for 40 years.

    If a person has been "chosen from the foundation of the world", then Christ will not let them die in their sins. He will come again to them and give them the Latter Rain. This is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. It is the same event the Apostles experienced on the Day of Pentecost in the upper room and it is the same event Paul "typed" for us when he received the Holy Spirit after being "in bed" for three days in Damascus. THIS IS THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST THAT IS COMMONLY TAUGHT IN SCRIPTURE. When Christ comes this second time, He comes as a thief in the night to destroy the Man of Sin whom we have become. When this happens, the path that leads to destruction is complete and the New Man who is born begins traveling the Narrow Path that leads to Life.

    What I have stated above is a very abbreviated summary of how Christ saves one of His chosen Elect. They are the First Fruits of His harvest of mankind. But Christ will NOT leave the rest of mankind to rot in the field. In the final age, at the end of the harvest season (Feast of Tabernacles), Christ will finish His work and bring in the full harvest of mankind. Then it will be testified to be true that ALL who died in Adam is the same ALL who will be made alive in Christ.

    1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as IN ADAM ALL DIE, EVEN SO IN CHRIST SHALL ALL BE MADE ALIVE. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    God does not fail and He never makes mistakes. What mankind is experiencing is how God reproduces Himself in His children. This is the meaning of life that seems to elude most people. Why? Because we are made spiritually blind and cannot know what God is doing until we receive the Latter Rain.

    Ecc 3:11 He (God) has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does, that which God does from the beginning to the end.

    Mankind is not restored to the Father because of our "will". We are restored to the Father because it is His "will" for it to happen. God is not a respecter of persons. We will all be saved and we will all travel the same pathway for that salvation. The only difference is "when" we complete the path and God decided that before the foundation of the world to satisfy His own purposes.

    One final point I want to make. End-time prophecy is teaching about the pathway that leads to conversion. All those End-time verses should be applied spiritually "within" us and not out in the world as they are commonly understood. When the Latter Rain falls on one of God's chosen Elect, it causes a spiritual earthquake with lightning and thunder and trumpets. Our worldly carnal paradigm is destroyed and we are given a new paradigm in Christ. At that point, the sun is darkened and the moon is turned to blood. We no longer receive the natural light of this world. We now receive the light of Christ (truth of God).

    I could have included many scriptures/parables that further support and explain what I have stated above but then this post would have turned into a book.

    I am willing to answer any specific questions you might have.

    Joe
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2021
  17. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    Are you a universalist (Believing everyone will be saved at some point?)

    What is the second death and who experiences it?

    Can you describe your personal Damascus Road experience and your wife’s?

    Do you believe God has free will?

    If like you said: “mankind is experiencing how God reproduces Himself in His children.” And God has free will, when will we obtain free will?

    Did Christ at one time experience sin?

    Was Christ a created being who went through this process to become God’s Son?

    Can you show me with scripture Christ’s “second coming”, being this Baptism of the Holy Spirit?

    Do you not sin anymore?

    God describes Adam as being made “very good” so is that as “good” as God could create a being or could God have created a clone of Christ?

    Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed evil and good? I think the NIV does a better job here by translating it : “Is it not from the mouth of the Most High

    that both calamities and good things come?”

    I am not seeing how your conclusion fits scripture so I might have more questions, but we can start with theses.
     
  18. FaithWillDo

    FaithWillDo Member

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    Dear bling,
    That is quite a list of questions. I will try to answer them the best I can.

    Are you a universalist (Believing everyone will be saved at some point?)

    I don't fit into any group or church denomination. From what I wrote in my post, you should be able to see that I believe Christ is the Savior of the world. That is the mission the Father sent Him to accomplish. Since God is Love and Love never fails, it is a certainty that everyone who "died in Adam" will be "made alive in Christ". Can that possibly leave anyone out? Christ even made this statement to some of the Pharisees who crucified Him:

    Matt 21:31 Which of the two was obeying his father?" They replied, "The first, of course." Then Jesus explained his meaning: "I assure you, corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the Kingdom of God before you do.

    If there was an eternal hell, don't you think that Christ would have told them that they would spend eternity there??? But instead, Christ only told them that tax collectors and prostitutes would get into the Kingdom of Heaven before they do. You have to remember how much contempt the Jews had for tax collectors and prostitutes. They would be the worst of the worst in those Pharisees' self righteous minds. But with Christ, it is not a matter of whether or not those Pharisees would be saved. It was only a matter of WHEN. The "when" is answered by the story of the Prodigal Son. The first will be last and the last will be first. All the gentiles will be saved before Christ starts His work of saving the Jewish nation.

    What is the second death and who experiences it?

    Remember, Christ's words are spirit and have meanings "different from what man's wisdom teaches". Christ words teach on spiritual things - things that happen "within" mankind. That is where Christ does His work. When Christ speaks of "death", He is referring to our spiritual death (the true penalty of sin) which we all owe to Him (He purchased our sin debt on the cross). In this age, this spiritual "death" happens to the Elect. They are the FIRST Fruits and are first to be judged. Though the term is not in scripture, their judgment could be referred to as the "first death". Christ's judgment falls on their Old Man (carnal nature) when He comes to them a second time with the Latter Rain. When His judgment is complete "within" them, their Old Man is ground to powder and is utterly destroyed. So because their Old Man has already been judged and destroyed, they will not have to experience the Lake of Fire judgment which is the second death. Their names will be found in the Lamb's Book of Life. All those not found in the Book will be cast into the Lake of Fire which is the "second death". That judgment will likewise destroy the carnal natures of those experiencing it. When that judgment is finished, all that will be left within those individuals will be their new nature in Christ.

    Also, keep in mind that "fire" is also a spiritual term. It represents Christ's judgment. It is not literal fire. Plus the Greek word "aion" is commonly translated wrong. It can never mean "for ever and ever". It means “age” or “eon”. In Rev 20:10, the verse should read:

    Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night to the age (aion) of the ages (aion) .

    Here is proof of that translation:

    In Rev 11:15 the same Greek phrase (aion aion) is used to describe how long Christ will reign. When properly translated, it will read:

    Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign to the age of the ages.

    Christ only reigns over mankind during the ages. Once everyone is saved and the last enemy is destroyed, the ages will come to an end. Christ’s reign will also then come to an end and He will deliver up the Kingdom to the Father.

    1Cor 15:24-28 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    Can you describe your personal Damascus Road experience and your wife’s?

    You are speaking of the Early Rain. You have experienced it, too I'm sure. For me, I believe it occurred in my late 20's even though I was brought up in church and was baptized in water when I was twelve. There is not a dramatic point in time that I can remember. All I can remember is finally coming to the decision that I truly believed in Christ and wanted to know Him and be saved. But like everyone else after receiving the Early Rain, I was quickly deceived by Satan and spent the next 15-20 years wandering in the wilderness under Satan's deceptions. At that time, I believed in the mainstream doctrines of the church and went to church regularly. My greatest passion was End-time prophecy, but of course, I did not correctly understand them back then. I was completely deceived and had become a Man of Sin - but of course, I did not realize it while I was under Satan's deceptions. It was only when Christ came to me with the Latter Rain that He revealed to me who the Man of Sin was.

    A short time after receiving the Latter Rain, I learned that the Man of Sin whom I had become was a product of the religious aspect of my carnal nature (Mystery Babylon the Great). Under Satan's deception, I grew into a Man of Sin. When Christ came with the Latter Rain, He destroyed Mystery Babylon the Great from within me and the Man of Sin along with it. In happened quickly, in "one hour" and I could see the smoke of her burning from the distance:

    Rev 18:8-10 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day (the Day of the Lord, the Latter Rain), death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her. And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

    Mine and my wife's Latter Rain testimony is posted in my profile and was very dramatic for both of us.


    Do you believe God has free will?

    Yes. But all His actions are within the scope of His Holy and loving nature. He does not change.

    If like you said: “mankind is experiencing how God reproduces Himself in His children.” And God has free will, when will we obtain free will?

    God the Father will always be our God. He will always be greater in authority than us. The same holds true for Christ, too. So from that stand point, our "will" will always be subservient to His "will", just as it is now.

    Did Christ at one time experience sin?

    Scripture does not teach anything concerning how Christ was created by God the Father and became His Son. The only hint in scripture is:

    Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:


    Christ knows "good and evil". To state how He knows them would only be speculation. However, I will expand on this subject when I answer your question below on whether I still sin.

    Was Christ a created being who went through this process to become God’s Son?

    We can assume that Christ was created by the Father at some point prior to this creation because "all things" come from God the Father. In addition, sons don't come into existence before their fathers do -fathers give birth to sons, therefore sons have a beginning. But how Christ was created is not stated in scripture and I won't speculate about it .

    Here is what scripture tells us:

    1Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    God the Father is Christ's Father and God:

    2Cor 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

    The Trinity Doctrine is false.

    Can you show me with scripture Christ’s “second coming”, being this Baptism of the Holy Spirit?

    There are several places in scripture where it is shown. I will show you two of them here which I don't believe I've mentioned yet. If you still would like to see more, I can show you in another post.

    1) The healing of the Blind Man
    Mark 8:15-21 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. 16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread. 17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? 18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? 19 When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve. 20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven. 21 And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?

    In these verses, Christ is giving His disciples a lesson on spiritual language - His language. At this point in time (before Pentecost), the disciples have not received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and were spiritually blind. They simply could not understand what Christ was teaching them. After Christ’s short lesson, He ends it by asking them this question: “How is it that ye do not understand”? No response is recorded in scripture, however, Christ answers His own question in the very next 4 verses.

    Mark 8:22-25 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. 23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. 24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. 25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

    Christ speaks to us not only through His words which are recorded in scripture but also by the things that He did. In answering the question that He proposed to the disciples in verse 21, He goes to Bethsaida and gives us His answer through the type and shadow of His healing of a blind man.

    In these verses, Christ leads a blind man out of the city. Once outside the city, Christ places spit on his eyes and touches him with His hands. These actions occur as the blind man is looking down which symbolizes that the blind man remains carnally minded. The “spit” (water) symbolizes the blind man receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit with its accompanying vision (eyes, understanding). After Christ asks him what he could see, the blind man looks up and says that he could see men walking as trees. "Walking as trees" is a symbol for Called Out believers of which the blind man is now one. The man’s blindness was not total any longer but he was still very near-sighted. This “first healing” of the blind man reflects our spiritual condition when we first enter the Church. At that time, we are left carnally minded and spiritually near-sighted. Peter says this condition is the same as being blind:

    2Pet 4:19 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

    In the final verse of the story, Christ lays His hands upon the man’s eyes again but this time, Christ has the man “look up”. This second healing represents the Latter Rain of the Spirit (second coming of Christ) when true spiritual vision is given to the believer. The man’s upward gaze represents this heavenly aspect of the healing in contrast to the carnal aspect when the blind man was looking down. From that moment onward, we know that the blind man is a Called and Chosen believer. We can now know that the blind man is one of Christ’s Elect, a First Fruit of the harvest of mankind.


    Continued on the next post.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2021
  19. FaithWillDo

    FaithWillDo Member

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    Continued from previous post.

    2. The woman taken in Adultery

    John 8:3-10 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

    A “woman” in scripture represents God’s wife. All who are “in Adam” will be “called” to be God’s wife.
    From His wife, Christ will produce children of God.

    Isa 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

    From the very start of Adam’s creation, his marriage relationship with God was based upon faith. However, Adam was created spiritually weak and spiritually blind. Because of these flaws, Adam soon became carnally minded (controlled by his flesh) and sinned by committing adultery with Satan (believing Satan instead of God). Rather than going to God in faith and asking for forgiveness, Adam turned to the ways of Satan and tried to hide (apron of fig leaves, filthy rags) his adultery through his own “works”. If Adam would have come to God in faith and simply asked for forgiveness, he would have been forgiven and the marriage relationship would have been restored. But Adam turned to his own works (sin that leads to death) and strayed from approaching God by faith alone. Because of Adam’s adultery with Satan, the marriage ended and God cast him out of the Garden. Ever since that time, God has been working to restore His marriage relationship with mankind.

    In the story from John 8:3-10, the woman represents Adam (all mankind). When Christ first writes in the earth, that act represents the time when Christ first writes His law in our hearts. This act by Christ is the time of the Early Rain when we are “called out” by Christ to be restored to the Father by faith. It is a spiritual event that happens "within" us. However, Satan quickly comes to us and deceives us because we remain spiritually blind. Because of his deception, we quickly fall away from faith alone and mix in our own works. This is the sin that leads to death and we remain under the Law. Because this happens, the Pharisees do not drop the stones after Christ first writes in the earth. The "stones" represent the Law and the Law is still accusing us.

    Then in verse 8, Christ stoops down again and writes His Law upon our hearts a second time (the Latter Rain, the second coming of Christ). It is at this point that Christ heals our spiritual blindness and we come out from Satan’s deception. We begin to walk by faith alone and as a result, the Law can no longer accuse us. After this change from Law to faith, the Pharisees drop their stones and leave. The Law is now of no effect over the woman (mankind) and we are restored to God. At this time, we start dwelling in heaven.

    Do you not sin anymore?

    Yes and No. The New Man in Christ does not sin and never has BUT my Old Man who still lives within me does still sin. At this time, God only views me as the New Man in Christ who is without sin. For that reason, my relationship with the Father is restored and I dwell in heaven (my spiritual state of being).

    At the time of the Latter Rain, only the Man of Sin (the religious aspect of our carnal nature) is destroyed. The Old Man continues to live. But as I travel the Narrow Path, the Old Man is judged and will ultimately be totally destroyed. But until that day (probably the day of my physical death but scripture does not say), I will continue committing some sins. But as the Old Man is judged and the New Man matures, I will sin less and less. John the Baptist is a spiritual "type" of our Old Man. He said this:


    John 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

    God describes Adam as being made “very good” so is that as “good” as God could create a being or could God have created a clone of Christ?

    I believe I have already answered this in my other posts. God made us spiritually flawed so that we would learn "good and evil". Without this knowledge, we would not be "like" God. So from that perspective, our flawed creation was "very good". It was necessary for us to be made spiritually flawed for a time so that later, we can be "born again" and become children of God.

    Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed evil and good? I think the NIV does a better job here by translating it : “Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?”

    The Hebrew word translated as "calamities" is "ra". It means evil and that is why the KJV and YLT translate it that way.

    Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed evil and good?



    Here are some more verses to consider:

    Isa 45:5-7 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

    Ecc 7:13 Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?

    Prov 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

    Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

    Job 2:10 But he said to her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. We have also received good from God, and should we not receive evil? In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

    Joshua 23:15 But it shall come to pass, that as every good word hath been fulfilled to you, that Jehovah your God spoke to you, so will Jehovah bring upon you every evil word, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which Jehovah your God hath given you;

    Here is an example of how God used Satan:

    2 Sam 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

    So how did God move David? God sent Satan.

    1 Chron 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

    I think that's all your questions. If you have more (maybe not so many at a time), let me know.

    Joe
     
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