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Featured Baptized in the Spirit

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Alex10, Feb 17, 2017.

  1. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    It is interesting that you are quoting Gordon Fee, who is a Continuist and firmly teaches that the gifts of the Spirit, including the current practice of tongues in the P/C churches are genuine. I have his volume on 1 Corinthians, and The Holy Spirit in the Epistles of Paul.
     
  2. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Paul's infirmities are not an argument against divine healing. Healing is not the major issue among Christian believers as some make out. But healing of terminal diseases is an issue for the unsaved person because if he dies outside of Christ he will have a very miserable eternity. This is why divine healing happens more frequently among unsaved people, especially those in the Third World because it often leads to salvation, and so this is the aim of divine healing coupled with evangelism. This is what happened in the Book of Acts. We don't see any examples of healing of believers in Acts. When healing occurred, it was most if not all associated with sharing the gospel with the unsaved. It was the same with the casting out of demons. We don't see this among believers in the early church. It was coupled with evangelism. Pagans got demons cast out of them and then they got saved.

    This why healing crusades attended mainly by Christian believers don't have a lot of healings despite the faith-building preaching and claims that "God will heal you". People get disillusioned and skeptical because they fail to understand the real intention of divine healing. There were no healing crusades in Acts.

    In the early days of the Pentecostal movement, there were widespread healings, especially in the tent crusades of Maria Woodsworth Etter, Oral Roberts, and A A Allen. These were short-lived because I believe that this was God restoring the ministry to the Church on a general basis. But in Third World countries, (Africa, Asia, and South America) where there is a strong pagan influence, divine healing is more prevalent among unsaved people who come to evangelistic meetings. Reinhard Bonnke received many more testimonies of healing from those who came to his crusades in African than from those in Western Countries where most attendees were believers from different churches in the city.

    The ministry of healing in the church is covered by James, and it speaks more of recovery from sickness rather than an instantaneous miracle. The infilling of the Holy Spirit is enduement of power for service - to get out there and win souls for Christ, not for the self-indulgence of believers. This was the thrust of Mark 16 and the Lord told about the signs and accompany believers, including casting out of demons and healing the sick. The context was the great Commission to get out into the world and save sinners. Modern Charismatics have changed the meaning of signs and wonders and have moved them from evangelism to what they want to happen within their Christian "clubs". Many Charismatic crusades (Todd Bentley and Benny Hinn are examples) are attended by mainly Christians, but it seems that in Benny Hinn's crusade that I saw on Youtube, an unbeliever was healed of deafness, and then got saved as a result. But many other large crusade gatherings seem like "Hallelujah Fests" for the self indulgence of religious folk. I saw Todd Bentley and his antics and I could not imagine any unbeliever accepting Christ in the face of that!

    It is also interesting to note where there are all sorts of manifestations with people shaking, falling over, writhing on the ground, etc., when one looks at the leaders and preachers, they don't do it. Does anyone see that as significant? And what proportion of females to males are more prominent with the unusual manifestations? From what I see, I don't see many males having extreme manifestations. But I could be corrected on that.
     
  3. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    Like most westerners unfamiliar with Hebrew idioms, which Paul was fully aware of, thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan is a Hebrew idiom. It doesn't refer to an illness in this place, though he had poor eyesight. But this verse in 2 Corinthians cannot be used as a proof text for an unhealed illness. This idiom has been used before in scripture:

    Judges 2:2-4 New King James Version (NKJV)

    2 And you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars.’ But you have not obeyed My voice. Why have you done this? 3 Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side, and their gods shall be a snare to you.’” 4 So it was, when the Angel of the Lord spoke these words to all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voices and wept.

    Paul was battling the Gnostics and Judaizers. They were a thorn in his side, a thorn in the flesh. They were messengers of Satan, literally. God didn't remove these false teachers, but let Paul have this trial.
     
  4. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    Unfortunately, Todd Bentley fell. He divorced his wife, and married his mistress. (Same as my husband did to me)
     
  5. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    Oscarr, read my post to Bible2 about the thorn in the flesh. You will find it interesting.
     
  6. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Probably explains why he didn't really impress me when I viewed in on Youtube.
     
  7. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    His mistress/wife has a kinulini spirit. She is possessed. Have you seen her?

    Anyway, did you read my post to Bible2 on the thorn in the flesh?
     
  8. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    I read it. I don't believe that Paul's thorn in the flesh was sickness either. He was severely persecuted everywhere he went. Out of all the ministries of the time, he got the worst deal by far. He did talk about his infirmities and I think that the stress of his ministry, the imprisonment and beatings took their toll on him as he got older. It is not surprising that some big-name preachers go off the rails because they come nowhere near the type of stress, suffering, and persecution that Paul went through. Because they had it easy they got lifted up with pride and consequently fell. Paul knew that his thorn in his side was to keep him humble in the face of his great success in ministry.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2017
  9. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Someone who gets lifted up in pride and thinks more of himself than he ought to think can fall into the snare of the devil. Sounds like that is what happened to him. I don't actually know what a kinulini spirit is.
     
  10. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    Before you forget, write Judges 2:2-4 in your Bible by 2 Corinthians 12:7. Knowing Hebrew idioms and styles of writing is imperative to revealing and understanding the true meaning of Scripture written by the Hebrew apostles.
     
  11. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

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    BELIEVERS: Indwelt by God the Holy Spirit... 1 Cor.12:13

    Romans 8: 9-11
    However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God DWELLS in you.
    But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
    If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin,
    yet the spirit is alive because of (imputed) righteousness.
    But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead DWELLS in you,
    He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who DWELLS in you.

    Your spirit must allow the inwelling God the Holy Spirit to GUIDE your WALK on the right PATH...stay in the will of God.

    John 16: 12-15 (NASB)...Jesus: the gift of God the Holy Spirit will GUIDE
    But when He, (God) the (Holy) Spirit of truth, comes,
    He will GUIDE you into all the TRUTH;
    for He will not speak on His own initiative,
    but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. (the right path to take!)
    He will glorify Me (God the Son, Jesus) , for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. All things that (God) the Father has are Mine; ...

    2 Corinthians 5: 5-10 (NASB)...Walk in the Spirit by Faith
    ...Now He who prepared us for this very purpose (walk in life) is (the TRI-UNE) God, who gave to us the (indwelling God the Holy) Spirit as a pledge.
    Therefore, being always of good courage, and
    knowing that while we are at home in the body (+ soul)
    we are (spiritually) absent from the Lord
    — for we WALK by FAITH, not by "sight"—
    we are of good courage, I say, and
    prefer rather to be absent from the body (+ soul) and to be at home with the Lord. (spiritually)
    Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be PLEASING to Him.
    For we must all appear before the "Judgment Seat of Christ", (Judgment of the Believer's Works...SEE: 1 Corinthians 3)
    so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds (works) in the body, (and Soul after salvation)
    according to what he has done, whether good or bad. (spiritually)

    Galatians 5:16-23 (NASB)...Walk by the Spirit
    But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. ...
    But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
    Now the deeds of the flesh are evident...
    But the fruit of the Spirit is ...
    Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
    If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

    Psalm 142 : (NASB)...David, when he was in the cave...Prayer for Help in Trouble.
    When my SPIRIT was overwhelmed within me,
    You knew my PATH
    In the way where I WALK
    They (worldly enemies) have hidden a trap for me.
    Look to the right and see;
    For there is no one who regards (respects?) me;
    There is no escape for me;(from the world!)
    No one cares for my soul (and Spirit) ....(BUT!)
    I cried out to You, O LORD;
    I said, "You are my REFUGE,
    My PORTION in the land of the living.
     
  12. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

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    SPIRITUAL BAPTISM ...VERSUS...RITUAL WATER BAPTISM

    1 Corinthians 14:22-23...The BOTTOM LINE for: "glossae"/language/"tongues" !
    So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe. Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?

    Luke 10...the 70 sent out...
    say to them, ‘The kingdom of God (Divine Messiah) has come near to you.’
    "The one who listens to you listens to Me,
    and the one who rejects you rejects Me;
    and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me."
    ...rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven."
    ...All things have been handed over to Me by My Father, and
    no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and
    who the Father is except the Son, and
    anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."

    Shucks...nothing on WATER baptism for the first organized missionaries!

    Q: "Was the baptism of John from heaven or from men?"...Jesus' Trick Question to Jewish leaders!!

    A: Neither. The Baptizer was a prophesied forerunner and messenger. He was not the promised Divine Savior. John's baptism emphasized turning to God and being symbolically immersed in a river to cleanse from sin.

    If Jesus did not receive WATER BAPTISM from John,
    he would be LACKING in the fulfillment of ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS. Jesus was the sinless ONE!...divine at conception! He did not need SPIRITUAL BAPTISM

    Mark 1:8
    I baptized you with water; but He (Jesus) will baptize you with (God)the Holy Spirit."

    Acts 1:5
    for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with (God) the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

    Acts 19:4
    Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance,
    telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus."

    1 Corinthians 12:13...for believers ONLY!
    For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one (spiritual) body,(of Christ!) whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free,

    and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.


    Jesus the Divine Messiah was Deity from birth to ascension...SINLESS!

    The John's ceremonial water baptism ceremony was for OBSERVERS who caught a glimpse of the TRI-UNE GOD...Voice (F) + Dove(HS) + Jesus.(GS)
    This was the ~30 year starting line for which He been prepared for a miraculous ~3 year ministry.

    Ephesians 4...Unity of the SPIRIT
    5 one Lord, one faith, one (SPIRITUAL) baptism,

    ===>NOT ritual water water baptism.

    Romans 6:3
    Or do you not know that all of us (believers)
    who have been baptized INTO Christ Jesus
    have been baptized into His death?

    Galatians 3:27
    For all of you who were baptized INTO Christ
    have clothed yourselves with Christ.

    John 3...
    "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again (spiritually changed) he cannot see the kingdom of God."..."Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water (normal flesh birth fluids) and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

    Mark 16: CAVEAT: verses 9-end were ADDED to the original MSS...UNRELIABLE!
    "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. 17 These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
    SIGNS = horsefeathers!
     
  13. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

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    Paul's "thorn in the flesh" = THEORY...He was stoned and beaten many times +> epilepsy?
     
  14. swordsman1

    swordsman1 Well-Known Member

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    I quoted Gordon Fee to make the point that even Pentecostalism's most respected theologian does not agree with the old school Pentecostal doctrine of Baptism in the Holy Spirit being an event subsequent to salvation, but rather occurs at conversion for all believers. Virtually all respected theologians, whether continuist or cessationist, now take this view.

    As to Fee's views on modern glossolalia, he is not at all convinced it is genuine New Testament tongues. The most he is prepared to say about the modern practice is it is something analogous to tongues:

    Gordon Fee - Paul, the Spirit, and the People of God
    The question as to whether the 'speaking in tongues' in contemporary Pentecostal and charismatic communities is the same in kind as that in the Pauline churches is moot - and probably irrelevant. There is simply no way to know. As an experienced phenomenon, it is analogous to theirs, meaning that it is understood to be a supernatural activity of the Spirit that functions in many of the same ways, and for its practitioners has value similar to that described by Paul.
     
  15. W2L

    W2L Well-Known Member

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    Whatever the reason, without God we have no hope, so i'll be thankful that the Lord helps me in other ways, some of which you mentioned. Also, it may be that God has given mankind doctors. The bible said that God made the blacksmith and other such craftsmen, (Isaiah 54:16) so God must have created the doctors as well.
     
  16. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    It is a historical fact that the majority of the important medical discoveries were made by committed Christians. Hospitals were started by Christian churches.
     
  17. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    To be fair, after 15 years as a member of a P/C church and continuing to hold to Pentecostal doctrine for the last 35 years, I have come to the view that we do get indwelt by the Holy Spirit at conversion. Whether we get endued with power for service by the Holy Spirit right then is still doubtful for me. Paul says that novices should not be given ministry unless they be lifted up with pride. So, if ministry comes with experience and maturity in the faith, then the availability of power for service and ministry would have to be a developmental thing based on development of sanctification and maturity. This may explain some immature preachers (Todd Bentley?) going off the rails after being lifted up in pride. Maybe there has to be a foundation of faith and sound doctrine before the Holy Spirit will release us into ministry. Paul and Barnabas had to wait many years until they got to Antioch, and we don't know how long they were there until they were released into the ministry they had around the known world.
     
  18. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Amen.

    And that brought to mind Luke 8:43-48 and James 5:14-16.
     
  19. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    The last sentence also brought to mind 1 Timothy 5:22, which could include the laying on of hands to impart Holy Spirit baptism (Acts 19:6, Acts 8:17). That is, 1 Timothy 5:22b could suggest that this (just as the laying on of hands to impart a specific ministry: Acts 6:5-6, Acts 13:2-3; 1 Timothy 4:14) should be delayed in cases where a Christian is living in unrepentant sin.
     
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