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Baptized in the Spirit

Discussion in 'Traditional Theology' started by Alex10, Feb 17, 2017 at 12:29 PM.

  1. Alex10

    Alex10 New Member

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    Has anyone actually witnessed someone being baptized in the spirit similar to Acts? I believe we should be pushing on until we receive similar to Acts. To my understanding, it is done in the presence of witnesses and you will break out into speaking of tongues. It doesn't necessarily mean you will always be in tongues but that the speaking of tongue is evidence. I hope I worded this correctly
     
  2. Tigger45

    Tigger45 Wisdom & forgiveness. Supporter Angels Team CF Senior Ambassador

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  3. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Hello, Alex, and welcome to CF. :)

    I am quite familiar with this question, with how it plays out in several different kinds of denominations, as well as how the Church traditionally understands it.

    And I will say something that some here might not agree with (we don't all have to agree on everything) ...

    No, I will back up. You'll probably have 15 responses before I get this typed, but I will go into a few more details anyway, because I think the topic deserves that. If you're interested, please keep reading, because some of it may not be what you'll think I'll say by the time I get to my own opinion. :)

    Generally speaking, I think that what we read of as happening in Acts does not happen in the same way today. Now, I am NOT a cessationist, and neither is the Orthodox Church cessationist. We believe deeply in the power of God, and He has not changed.

    However, situations change, and while yes, I've seen what you describe happen, I don't think it's really identical to what happened in Acts.

    In Acts, the "other tongues" were in most cases actual languages which could be understood by those who knew them.

    The phenomenon that happens most often today, I think happens by people who are sincere, but is more of a loosening of the mind and allowing what is generally a repetitive and non-language series of sounds to be produced. Why this happens is perhaps not the point. I think people are in just about every case sincere. They often have the expectation if it happening. Indeed, sometimes they are actually pressured into it by the expectations of others, since many groups would relegate someone who hasn't done so to a sort of second-class level of spirituality, and a few deny outright that one is even a Christian without it.

    I was a bit surprised myself, when I learned the phenomenon is actually quite common (and identical) among non-Christians as well.

    But because I thought there had to be more - in fact I KNOW there is, I kept digging. And I have eventually come to what I sincerely believe is a balanced understanding.

    I will say first that it is not absolutely useless. HOWEVER ... for various reasons I won't go into right now, it is also not perfectly safe, depending on the attitude one takes and the guidance one has. And very often, the denominations thst encourage it most strongly have the tendency to congratulate and puff up people who do it, and to praise the wrong things that happen as a result. I believe they are sincere, and love God. But I think they lack certain knowledge that has been learned over the centuries, especially from the desert fathers and others who have devoted their lives to constant prayer and service to God, and have as a result come up against the very wiliest tricks of the enemy.

    So - it's not the safest way. But God uses things in our lives sometimes. Glory to God!

    In our tradition, many of those I mention who devote their lives to unceasing prayer, and others, have learned a process that can lead one "into the heart". Again, this is done under guidance, because it too is spiritually dangerous if one becomes prideful, or deluded. Sometimes it happens with relative quickness but often it takes longer. But it is a means to having the heart pray, unceasingly, all the time, even while sleeping ... so it is a very blessed thing and a gift from God. And so some pursue it.

    Now the thing that might be disagreeable to some, but I certainly believe this is true. And you probably won't know who the writers if the article, or the people they learned from are, but please believe me when I say - they should know what they are talking about. Especially St. Silhouan.

    But the thing is, there has been the suggestion, or more than the suggestion, that while this is not what happened in Acts, and is not the recommended way, God in His mercy can use what it is - as a way of allowing a person to have this gift, and "descend into the heart" and establish prayer.

    This article explains that a bit more.

    I will say that I think most often, that is not what happens. And I'm not recommending it as a method, by any means. But I'm saying that it appears certainly that SOMEthing IS going on. The disposition of the person and other things may determine what the end result is though. But it can be something used by God to impart deep prayer into the heart.

    Bottom line - it can be a wonderful thing, but it is only the beginning of something even greater, if you would pursue it.

    And again, if you haveven't done so, I'm not recommending it as the preferred course. What often comes along with it seems to lead to destruction sometimes instead.



    Ok, I've had my say. I'm happy to explain more, as far as I'm able, if anyone is ever interested.

    But with all of that said, if you are looking for different kinds of responses, you might like to have this moved to a different forum area, as it is not a common practice in Traditional Churches, generally.


    For a theological perspective, see here - Speaking in Tongues
     
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  4. AJTruth

    AJTruth Member

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    The out pouring of the Holy Spirit on the Temple Mt

    Peter explains in Acts 2:14 it is a prophecy spoken by Joel 2:28 being fulfilled.

    Also at the Tower of Babel. God confounded the rebellers tongues thereby separating and dividing them.

    We see the flipside of the curse on the Temple Mt. Everyone present was able to hear understand and unite.

    Baptized via Holy Spirit vs Spiritual Gifts

    Jesus Baptizes us via His Holy Spirit at conversion.

    John the baptized made clear that Christ would baptize with H/S Matt 3:11

    1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

    Note: Translators capitalized Spirit to identify when referring the Holy Spirit. Only Christ baptizes with/in the Holy Spirit. Salvation happens at that moment.

    Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision """made without hands""", in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: ONLY CHRIST CAN BAPTISE WITHOUT HANDS & NO WATER USED!

    There are different spiritual gifts given to different people beyond salvation

    1 Corinthians 12:
    1 """"Now concerning spiritual gifts""""", brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
    (Spiritual gifts beyond salvation)

    4 """""Now there are diversities of gifts"""", """"but the same Spirit"""".
    (Different gifts, all given by Gods Holy Spirit)

    5 And there are differences of administrations (forms of stewardship), but the same Lord.
    (Eph 4:11-12 prophets, evangelist, pastors For the perfecting of the saints & works in ministry)

    7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
    (Spiritual gifts are for the profit of the Church)

    8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
    (Two different gifts mentioned here)

    9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
    (Two more different gifts mentioned here)

    10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
    (Five more mentioned here. Note: The gifts of: divers kinds of tongues & the interpretation of tongues)

    11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
    (All these different gifts are by God the Holy Spirit)

    12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
    (Our bodies have many parts. Likewise the Spirit gives many gifts)

    13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
    (Here states only one Baptism into one body. This happens to every believer at conversion. Then we see 9 additional gifts of the spirit mentioned in vs 8-10. A few more in Eph 4:11-12)

    28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
    (Here we see Apostles, helps & governments added to those mentioned earlier)

    29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
    (After salvation: Different people are given different spiritual gifts as the Spirit leads)

    30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
    (Everyone doesn't get the same gifts)

    31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
    (Paul gives an order of importance in vs 28 & tells us to desire & pray for the best ones.)

    Here are additional scriptures on the subject:
    1 Cor 14:

    1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
    (Desire to have & display all spiritual gifts. Seek a loving spirit 1st & prophesy 2nd)

    2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
    (The gift of tongues only edifies the one praying)

    3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
    (Prophesy edifies everyone that hears it)

    4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
    (The gift of tongues only edifies the one praying. Prophesy is given to and edifies the whole Church)

    5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
    (Paul's is prayerful all will receive the gift of tongues. But, teaches prophesy is better because is edifies all)

    6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
    (Speaking in an unknown tongue only helps/edifies the speaker)

    12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
    (Seek the gifts of love & prophesy 1st. These lift up many)

    13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
    (Only use the gift of tongues in assembly. When someone with the gift of interpretation is present)

    14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
    (The gift of tongues only benefits others when there is an interpretation. Tongues plus interpretation equals prophesy)

    15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
    (Without an interpreter present pray & sing so that all listening can understand)

    16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
    (In assembly your gift of tongues doesn't help anyone else. Save it for your personal time with the Lord)

    18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
    (Paul say's he spends more personal time praying in tongues to God then ALL of them)

    19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
    (During assembly, Paul only speaks words all can understand)

    23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
    (During an assembly only use words everyone can understand)

    24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
    (Prophesy is good during assembly because it is a word from God that edifies/lifts up everyone)

    26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
    (During assembly only seek to edify everyone)

    27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
    (If someone with the gift of interpretation is present during assembly. Have 2-3 words given that will edify all)

    28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
    (Is no interpreter is present. Save your gift of tongues for your personal time with the Lord)

    29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
    (During assembly allow 2-3 prophecies be given to edify all present. Usually in this setting someone in leadership has the gift of discernment)

    30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
    (If you have a word. And someone before you gives the same word. Leave it at that)

    31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
    (Take turns one by one)

    33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
    (Gift are given to the church for the edification of everyone. And are to be done orderly)

    40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
    (Words & prophesies are to be given and done in an orderly fashion) Maranatha