Baptists abstain from alcohol but Christ created 6 barrels of it

[Jonaitis]

Unfortunately, something is wrong with the website and you can't change your religion, only your political party and marital status.

I wish they had the option of Reformed Baptist, I would have gladly chose that.

 

[GodLovesCats]

What is the difference between Reformed and Calvary Baptist?

 

[Jonaitis]

What is the difference between Reformed and Calvary Baptist?

Good question, I don't know what all Calvary Baptists believe.

 

[ml5363]

We are taught that Jesus made wine if the vine...that He is pure and holy, that alcohol is fermented, tainted thus Christ would not have made this wine

 

[Carl Emerson]

There is a serious alcohol problem in the Far North of New Zealand. For this reason when I visit there I will not drink at all. This is to avoid being party to others stumbling.
There are parts of the world where moderate drinking is so much part of the culture and to not drink there would be a potential barrier to sharing ones faith.
I think then that context is important.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

 

[Carl Emerson]

The host who tasted the wine that Jesus supplied commented on it being a high class wine. If it was non-alcoholic he would not have commented about bringing the best wine last when others were already under the influence of alcohol.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

I'm a Baptist but I don't understand why they believe in abstaining from all Alcohol including wine.

Not all Baptists believe that Post.

understand abstaining if someone you love battles with alcoholism and we don't want to be a stumbling block but to have this stance within your church doctrine when Christ himself drank wine seems really odd.

From where do you get the idea that all Baptists have that in their doctrine?

My own stance is that it's okay to drink, but not to drink to get drunk. Also, we shouldn't drink around weaker friends (who are, say, battling alcoholism).

 

[Carl Emerson]

As an associated issue - should we serve real wine for communion?

If Jesus ordained this why do we not do it???

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

As an associated issue - should we serve real wine for communion?

If Jesus ordained this why do we not do it???

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

We should. Jesus said about the wine, "This is my body." Not about grape juice, "This is a symbolic representation of my body."

 

[Carl Emerson]

You mean Blood?

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

You mean Blood?

No. I mean body.

Ha, just kidding. That's a whopper of a mistake, eh.

 

[thecolorsblend]

I'm Baptist and I'm underage. But I think I'll be ok with drinking temperately when I can.

I can understand moderation as a matter of individual preference. If it wasn't for Mass, I'd probably be a tee-totaler, myself.

But this idea that God has forbidden the consumption of alcohol in spite of all evidence to the contrary would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

 

[Mary Meg]

But this idea that God has forbidden the consumption of alcohol in spite of all evidence to the contrary would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

Yes... I am pretty amazed at some of the arguments I've heard.

 

[Dave-W]

The host who tasted the wine that Jesus supplied commented on it being a high class wine. If it was non-alcoholic he would not have commented about bringing the best wine last when others were already under the influence of alcohol.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

The pastor of the church I grew up in said that statement proved it was grape juice and not wine since grape juice tastes SO MUCH BETTER than that “nasty old alcoholic stuff.”

 

[Mary Meg]

I've most commonly heard that

(1) Jesus is talking about "new wine" (Matt 9:17 etc.), which means it hasn't fermented yet.

(But you don't have to look very far to see that apparently "new wine" is supposedly even more intoxicating: Acts 2:13)

(2) Jesus is talking about "fruit of the vine" (Matt 26:29 etc.), so it doesn't say it's wine, that means it's grape juice or something. Despite the fact that the only way to keep grape juice from fermenting (and very quickly) is to pasteurize it, something that nobody did then and wouldn't for 18 or so centuries. And besides, why would they want to?

(3) People drank wine because the water was bad. Despite, you know, there being clean wells all over the place where even Jesus drank (John 4). And even if this were a valid reason, they still drank wine.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

romans 14

 

[eleos1954]

I'm a Baptist but I don't understand why they believe in abstaining from all Alcohol including wine. I understand abstaining if someone you love battles with alcoholism and we don't want to be a stumbling block but to have this stance within your church doctrine when Christ himself drank wine seems really odd.

Matthew 11:19 19The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard..." So apparently Christ drank wine.

But the biggest issue I find is when Christ himself did his first miracle and created 6 barrels of wine from water. This was not some non-alcoholic wine either because in John 2:10 it says, "Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now."

Would Christ have created 6 stacks of dirty magazines, of course not. Would he have created 6 bags of heroin, of course not. Christ wouldn't have created 6 barrels of wine if it was something to be ashamed of so why do so many households act ashamed of wine? I guess my ultimate question is, why do people try to act more righteous than Christ?

Matthew 11:19 19The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they (the Pharisees) say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard..."

The Pharisees frequently accused Jesus of being a winebibber, drunkard and glutton. They also said He had a devil and blasphemed God, among other things. We know He wasn’t a glutton or demon-possessed blasphemer! So if these things are not true, why should we assume that our Lord was a drinker as indicated by the Pharisees, a group of Jesus’ most-outward adversaries well known for their questionable theology?

We know leaven is symbolic of sin in the Bible, and that only unleavened — unfermented bread can be served at Communion, so it would be preposterous to think that it would be okay to serve fermented grape juice — alcoholic wine. The blood of the sinless Lamb of God would not be symbolized by corrupted, fermented wine. Furthermore, Jesus called it “fruit of the vine”, which refers to fresh grape juice and not fermented wine. Jesus refused to drink fermented wine even when He was hanging on the cross and cried: “I thirst!” They gave Him “wine mingled with myrrh”, but when He tasted it, He refused to drink it (Matt.27:34, Mk.15:22).

The good wine is the unfermented wine (new wine - grape juice)

 

[Mary Meg]

The Pharisees frequently accused Jesus of being a winebibber, drunkard and glutton. They also said He had a devil and blasphemed God, among other things. We know He wasn’t a glutton or demon-possessed blasphemer! So if these things are not true, why should we assume that our Lord was a drinker as indicated by the Pharisees, a group of Jesus’ most-outward adversaries well known for their questionable theology?

There is a difference between a drinker and a drunkard (I'm pretty sure this point was addressed above).

We know leaven is symbolic of sin in the Bible, and that only unleavened — unfermented bread can be served at Communion, so it would be preposterous to think that it would be okay to serve fermented grape juice — alcoholic wine. The blood of the sinless Lamb of God would not be symbolized by corrupted, fermented wine. Furthermore, Jesus called it “fruit of the vine”, which refers to fresh grape juice and not fermented wine.

Yes, see my post above. This is exactly the argument I've heard all my life.

You do realize that fermentation occurs naturally in grape juice, and the only way to stop it is a process of pasteurization (to kill the natural yeasts)? Nobody understood this in the first century. If anybody had "grape juice" stored at all, then very quickly they had wine (and if they weren't deliberate in their winemaking, then it wasn't very good wine either).

Jesus refused to drink fermented wine even when He was hanging on the cross and cried: “I thirst!” They gave Him “wine mingled with myrrh”, but when He tasted it, He refused to drink it (Matt.27:34, Mk.15:22).

Really? You're making His refusal to drink on the cross about His refusal to drink alcohol?

 

[Dave-W]

(2) Jesus is talking about "fruit of the vine" (Matt 26:29 etc.), so it doesn't say it's wine, that means it's grape juice or something.

And that is a problem stemming from the separation of Church and Synagogue. He and Paul both use that phrase: Fruit of the vine. It is from the common blessing said over both alcoholic wine and grape juice:

Baruch atah Adonai Elohenu, Melech haOlam, borei p’re ha-gaffen.

Blessed are You Oh Lord our God, King of the universe, who creates the fruit of the vine.

 

[Dave-W]

Really? You're making His refusal to drink on the cross about His refusal to drink alcohol?

His refusal was in line with HIM taking a Nazirite vow during the Last Supper. A nazirite could not ingest anything from the grape plant. Not wine, not grape juice, not even stuffed grape leaves.

Matthew 26:29
But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.”