Do Baptists Believe in the Virgin Mary?

[KennySe]

"Do Baptist believe Mary is the Mother of God?"
Mary gave birth to God Incarnate. That Jesus was 100% God was due to the fact of His coneption by the Holy Spirit. "Mother of God" can be a confusing title for the unsaved. And God is one God, in three persons.

Would it be nonconfusing to Baptists to say "Mary is the birth giver to God Incarnate."?

Is this term embraced in Baptist teaching, or which terms are in Baptist teaching regarding this?

 

[eldermike]

Would it be nonconfusing to Baptists to say "Mary is the birth giver to God Incarnate."?

In baptist Tradition there is simply no reason to go beyond saying Mary is the mother of Jesus.

 

[thereselittleflower]

1) In a perfect world (one with only baptists ), there probably would be little to do about such doctrines. Chances are they would never come up. I think the reason they come up so often is simply because we don't live in a monotonic world, with everyone echoing the same ideas, but one that is very diverse. Within that diverse world there is significant disagreement over this issue precisely because Rome in particular has declared these things as dogma, essentially tying them into the gospel itself and salvation (in the sense that EENS would normatively require membership in the church, and membership in the church requires assent to all dogmas). As such, there is significant division over this issue because of that. I think if Catholics held these beliefs but never declared them dogma, there would not nearly be so much rancor over them, though it might still exist.

2) A distinction should really be made between marian doctrines as well. Some, such as using God-Bearer or the perpetual virginity, do not really raise that many hackles as they aren't really that theologically significant in defining the theological boundries of various churches. This is quiote different from doctrines such as Mary as the mediatrix which involves a very different conception of grace of salvation itself that the protestant perspective. As such, we react strongly to such ideas.

3) As our attitude is to stay as much to the scriptures as possible, the marian doctrines in large measure create tension because they push the boundries of this very hard while simultaneously being advanced as required belief (which makes them tied into salvation by implication as I illustrated above).

I think my arguments above show this. Ultimately it comes down to this - that we do not believe as a general rule that one should bind the conscience of a believer with doctrines the scripture has not revealed. Of course, baptists are not always stringent in application of this principle, but nonetheless we do try not to trangress such things. As Rome has bound the consicences of believers to these doctrines, and requires consent to them in a normative sense for salvation (through membership in the visible church), we cannot help but be opposed to such teachings.

ken

Hi Ken

So, it is not so much the teachings that the Baptists find themselves opposed to as much as it is the declaration of these to be dogma . . from your perspective I can appreciate your view point on that . .

I guess what I think would help Baptist Cathollic relations would be more of a distinction in this . .

It would really be nice to hear more often that as a Baptist one doesn't hold, for instance, a belief in Mary's perpetual virginity to be absolutely wrong . . just that it is wrong to require such a belief . . .

I think a lot of misunderstandings between the 2 groups could be avoided if the problems with marian doctrines were approached in that manner . . because the way it usually comes across is that it is wrong to even entertain the a marian belief such as Mary was a perpetual virgin . .


Being free to believe something is one thing , , not being free to believe something other than a specific belief is another . . I understand your issues with the latter . . I wish I would hear more about the former.


(PS by the way, you know what they say about Baptists in heaven, don't you ???? )



Peace in Him!

 

[thereselittleflower]

Hi therese,

I think the reason some Baptists seem to get upset about marian doctrines in the Catholic Church is because we tend to be very sensitive about elevating other biblical characters (besides God/Jesus/HS). What I mean is, we see a thin line between idolizing an undoubtably important person, and respecting that person. It's a line we want to be careful not to cross. I'm not saying that the Catholic view of Mary is idolatry--don't get me wrong. There's no way I can look into someone's heart and know if they're committing idolatry. I just know that from the outside looking in, it's hard to see the line between respect and idolatry sometimes.

(Still no reason to assume someone's being idolatrous, IMO).

Have a good day!
J

Thanks J.


Peace in Him!

 

[II Paradox II]

So, it is not so much the teachings that the Baptists find themselves opposed to as much as it is the declaration of these to be dogma . . from your perspective I can appreciate your view point on that . .

I think that is the case with *some* of the marian doctrines. Some of the others such as Mary as Mediatrix or the Immaculate conception I think we would have more theological objection to.

I guess what I think would help Baptist Cathollic relations would be more of a distinction in this . .

Probably. This act of making things dogmatic can have very bad consequences for intra-church relations in general, not just in the case of baptists. A quick trip over to the TAW will illustrate that they are not happy over the definition of transubstantiation even though they may in essence believe something quite similar (the same with the Assumption I think).

It is difficult I think for Catholics to realize the effect such proclamations have because you see them as a defense of Orthodoxy whereas non-catholics of many stripes view it as needless additions to the fundamental gospel passed down in either scripture (for prots) or tradition (for EO's).

It would really be nice to hear more often that as a Baptist one doesn't hold, for instance, a belief in Mary's perpetual virginity to be absolutely wrong . . just that it is wrong to require such a belief . . .

At least for me, I think if the scripture is not very clear on a subject, one is more free to make these sorts of judgments on their own. I for one am skeptical about the PV, but I wouldn't outright reject it either because the scriptural evidence is not cut and dry.

(PS by the way, you know what they say about Baptists in heaven, don't you ???? )

heh... yes.

ken

 

[theseed]

Hi

What is the Baptist understanding of Mary role in Salvation history?

It was predicted in Gen. 3.15, I think, that the serpeant would bruise "his heal", and not "thier heals", hence it does speak of one person--Christ.

Mary was the vessel that help Christ develop and come into the world.

Does it effect Baptists understand the nature of Jesus and our relationship with Him?

I would say no, as long as you believe that Christ was concieved by the Holy Spirit, and not Mary.

Do Baptist believe Mary is the Mother of God?

No, because Mary did not concieve (beget) God. The Holy Spirit did.


Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary:” (Apostles Creed, 100 AD)



Matthew 1:20
But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. (Isaiah 7.14).· “…and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end.” How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin? The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God” (Luke 1.33-35).

Do Baptist believe in Mary's virginal conception and is Ever-virgin?

Christ was born of the virgin, Mary, but that does not mean she remained a virgin. And she did not need to. Her virginity proved that Christ was not concieved by a man or woman, but of the Holy Spirit.

Do Baptists believe that God made Mary emaculate (Without orginal sin) in order to make the vessel of his only beggoten Son suitable for Him?

Yes, I believe that she was regenerate (before Christ was concieved by the Holy Spirit), and because of her regeneration by the Holy Spirit (Titus 3.5-7). We all recieved imputed rightousness through Christ alone. (Romans 4, 2 Cor. 5.21).

Do Baptists believe in the bodily Assumption of Mary, body and soul into Heaven (Like Elijah was)?

I see no proof of this in the bible, and its irrelevant or unnecessary for eternal life.

 

[theseed]

Are you saying that the Word did not become flesh (a real human)?
That the infant born of Mary was not God?

Are you saying that Christ was concieved by the a man or women, and not the Holy Spirit?

 

[theseed]

You may not want to ask questions, it may prompt people to debate.

And why are you using those weird names, and leaving the "o" out of Lord?

He is a Messianic Jew among, and they leave the vowls out of God's name, to make it more Holy. Kinda like with Y-H-W-H.

 

[theseed]

If I may ask a follow up

Do Baptists believe that Jesus received His humanity from Mary, or do they believe that she was just an empty vessel or vehicle to bring forth God the Word into the world ?

Thanks

P.S. I used to be Baptist and this was NEVER touched on so I am genuinely curious.

Do Baptists believe that Jesus received His humanity from Mary, or do they believe that she was just an empty vessel or vehicle to bring forth God the Word into the world ?

She was a mere vessel, but I would not say empty. That is what is taught in the Aposltles Creed, and the Gospels.
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary:”
· Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. (Isaiah 7.14).

· “…and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end.” How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin? The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God” (Luke 1.33-35).



Matthew 1:20
But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

 

[theseed]

Do any Baptists use the term Theotokos ?

Aside: My sisters Methodist minister gave a sermon where the title was at least recognized. I did not hear it in person so I cannot vouch for the context, but I do know that she squirmed in her pew wanting to raise her 'pick me teacher !' hand as she has been to a few EO services

Do any Baptists use the term Theotokos ?

I've never heard it from a Baptist.

 

[theseed]

Perhapse I could re-orient the question?

Would you think it would be Ok for a Baptist to believe in one or more of these doctrines?

For instance, would it be permissable for a Baptist to believe in the Immaculate Conception of Mary?

For instance, would it be permissable for a Baptist to believe in the Immaculate Conception of Mary?

Mary was concieved in sin like we all are, but she would have had the imputed sin removed and imputed rightousness instead, like all believers do.

 

[theseed]

I mean, if such marian doctrines may be believed if one wishes to in the Baptists tradition, they why are we looked down on amd/or critcized for believing them because we wish to?

Part of having a sin nature. Many non RCC people get defensive about anything that is RCC.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Hi




It was predicted in Gen. 3.15, I think, that the serpeant would bruise "his heal", and not "thier heals", hence it does speak of one person--Christ.

Mary was the vessel that help Christ develop and come into the world.


I would say no, as long as you believe that Christ was concieved by the Holy Spirit, and not Mary.


No, because Mary did not concieve (beget) God. The Holy Spirit did.

WAIT WAIT WAIT . . now you have me confused!

The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father . . the Holy Spirit did not beget God .

The problem that I have understood people to have with the term "Mother of God" is it makes it sound as if Mary caused God to be eternally . . so that God could not exist without Mary to begin with . .

Now, taking that logic, if I apply it to your words, you would be saying that God could not exist unless the Holy Spirit begat Him causing Hm to be eternally . .

So, please clarify what you mean here . .

Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary:” (Apostles Creed, 100 AD)

Matthew 1:20
But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. (Isaiah 7.14).· “…and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end.” How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin? The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God” (Luke 1.33-35).

Let me ask you something . .

When we speak of a woman getting pregnant, we speak of her as conceiving a child . . and we speak of the father of a child as having conceived the child in the Mother . .

The conception takes place within the woman . . . not outside if it (except invitro fertilization)

The passage from the Creed is speaking to the paternity of Jesus when it says "conceived by the Holy Spirit" . .

It is almost like you are saying that Jesus' conception was more like an invitro fertilization and that the embryo was somehow implanted into Mary . . but that she did not have anything to do with His conception at all . .

She was simply like a surrogate mother in whom the already conceived Jesus was implanted, but she contributed nothing to the conception of Jesus herself . .


Is this what you are saying?



Peace in Him!

 

[theseed]

I prefer the term "imputed sin"

 

[theseed]

Therse, I don't believe that Christ got his humanity (flesh) from Mary, but the Holy Spirit--as it is stated in the Scriptures and the Apostles Creed.

 

[thereselittleflower]

was responding to the post above the one above this. . . thought it was in response to my question, never mind . .


Peace in Him!

 

[theseed]

Would it be nonconfusing to Baptists to say "Mary is the birth giver to God Incarnate."?

Is this term embraced in Baptist teaching, or which terms are in Baptist teaching regarding this?

Yes, I agree with that statement

 

[jenptcfan]

What's wrong with Mary's the mother of Jesus, God the son? I guess I just don't understand why we're nitpicking this?

 

[KennySe]

Are you saying that the Word did not become flesh (a real human)?
That the infant born of Mary was not God?

Are you saying that Christ was concieved by the a man or women, and not the Holy Spirit?

I said nothing; I asked bleechers two specific questions.

But to put you at ease, I do accept the Sacred Scripture that Mary conceived in her womb when the Holy Spirit came upon her and the power of the Highest overshadowed her.

Luke 1:31-36
And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God

And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
​

to conceive: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=conceive

1.To become pregnant with (offspring).

 

[thereselittleflower]

Therse, I don't believe that Christ got his humanity (flesh) from Mary, but the Holy Spirit--as it is stated in the Scriptures and the Apostles Creed.

OK - then I have to ask, how did he get his humanity from the Holy Spirit?


And I need to ask another question, or I might completely miss you on this . .

Is Jesus somehow different than Christ? Or do you use Christ and Jesus interchangibly?


Peace in Him!