Baptist Church Hires Lesbian pastors

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Paul Yohannan

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In no sense is this church bound to your apostolic canons.
Ringo

I support ecumenical reconciliation, and thus find myself distressed when non-Orthodox churches erect barriers which are quite nearly insurmountable to the process of eventual reunion with us.
 
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Ringo84

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I'm very ecumenical too. I don't consider the Baptist and Catholic churches to be all that different at all, but I also don't think that protestants should be bound by canon law. Without derailing into a debate about church structure/the protestant reformation, and without seeming like I'm insulting the Church, I believe in church autonomy.
Ringo
 
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greenguzzi

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I support ecumenical reconciliation, and thus find myself distressed when non-Orthodox churches erect barriers which are quite nearly insurmountable to the process of eventual reunion with us.
Um, most of us aren't the slightest bit interested in "reunion" with the "Orthodox" church. So if there are barriers, then so be it. I have a couple of Orthodox friends, and I respect their religion, but it isn't for me at all.
 
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ken777

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that is a young child. Are you suggesting that Christ would endorse sex with young children?
It might be helpful to check the use of "pais" (servant) in Scripture to see how it is used, especially Matthew 12:18 & Luke 2:43 where it refers to Jesus.
 
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greenguzzi

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Yes or no questions, let your yes be yes and your no be no.

Do you think God is cool with homosexuals?
Do you think God is cool with a homosexual pastor?

Yes or No, that simple
The "let your yes be yes and your no be no" quote is talking about oaths, not questions.

I don't see why I should answer a question that you haven't fully explained.

I won't answer a complex question with a simple answer.

I won't be bullied.
 
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Paul Yohannan

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Specifically, this canon by implication applies in this case:

CANON XVII (17)

Whoever has entered into two marriages after baptism, or has possessed himself of a mistress, cannot be a Bishop, or a Priest, or a Deacon, or anything else in the list of clerics.

---

Apostolic Canon XVII explicity precludes divorced and remarried men, and by implication, women in lesbian marriages, from ordination.

Source: the Pedalion of St. Nicodemus the Hagiorite.
 
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ken777

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It seems very odd to me that some people defend Lesbian pastors on the grounds that other pastors could have sin in their lives.

The foundation of the Gospel Jesus preached is love & forgiveness, but based on repentance. Matthew 4:17
 
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greenguzzi

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You can't escape the fact that Romans 1:26 describes people who have sexual feelings (pathe which comes from pathos) for their own sex, as well as homosexual behavior.
So? We've already covered that. My argument still stands.

To claim that the whole range of human feelings & emotions was not known to the authors of the Bible is without any foundation.
I posit that the claim that the whole range of human feelings & emotions was known to the authors of the Bible is without foundation. My argument is a lot more plausible than yours, so it's up to you to prove it wrong.

The thrust of Paul's argument in Romans 1 is that rejection of God's purpose causes people to live immoral lives. "And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper" (NASB)
Agreed, but that doesn't relate to the modern concept of homosexuality.

If you read carefully you will see that idolatry was one of the consequences of not acknowledging God, not the cause of their homosexuality. It was because they "exchanged the truth about God for a lie" that "God gave them over to shameful lusts".
Again, so what?

Paul does not say these women & men exchanged their sexual practices, he says they exchanged the natural for the unnatural. It is statement about nature and how it has been perverted by those with same sex desires.
I'm not sure that you are correctly representing the text here, but it still changes nothing. What is being described in this scripture is not the same as the concept and experience of most gay people. You are forcing the scripture to apply to a situation it doesn't actually address.
 
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ken777

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Pray tell me, what is the sin of Sodom? Ez 16:49 “Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.”

Nothing in there about homosexuality--or sex of any sort.
Probably just a glitch in your copy & paste but you omitted the next verse (Ezekiel 16:50) which tells us why Sodom was destroyed.
Given that "abomination is a singular noun, and given that Ezekiel frequently referenced the Levitical holiness code, and given the assessment of 2 Peter 2:7 & Jude 1:7, we can identify the "abomination" as Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13.
 
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greenguzzi

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since all the examples in your graphic of marriage are between men and women i'd say i was right.
To quote you in full, you said "this is the only romantic relationship approved in Scripture. a man and a woman in marriage". Which you now say is the same as "between men and women". Or more specifically, between a man, up to 700 women, and a number of concubines. And possibly (and unromantically) one's rape victims and prisoners of war.

Those things are NOT the same. So you can say you were right all you like, but the evidence is there for all to see.
 
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TurtleAnne

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This is not a good thing.

Everyone is a sinner, everyone has sinned, but we are supposed to be trying our best to not sin, and especially shepherds of the flock should not be knowingly, willfully, flauntingly embracing sin. It would be just as bad if this was a male pastor flaunting his mistresses, or continuously stealing, or blaspheming against God, or so on. Yet people who are struggling with sins of adultery, or stealing, or speaking out in anger towards God, and so on, should all be welcomed in church as sheep if they are trying to change their ways.

So on one hand, I do not think that hostility/hatred should be shown to people who engage in homosexual sex, just like hostility/hatred shouldn't be shown to people guilty of many other types of sins, because this is not what Jesus taught, He did not teach His disciples to be hostile or to falsely represent God as being hateful towards people (but towards sin). But on the other hand, shepherds of the flock should not be willfully reveling in and flaunting sin.

Satan is the father of lies, though, and his primary tactics include all manner of deceit and trickery. This is becoming such a pervasive tactic, in particular, it seems. People try to present the topic as though there is no option to rebuke the sin but be kind to the sinner. Instead they try to present it as though, you are either embracing the sin, or you are "beating people over the head with the Bible" and spouting "hate speech" towards people. A very simplistic manipulation tactic, yet apparently quite effective.

Well anyway, there are many millions who claim to be Christians, but who willfully and brazenly do not follow the teachings of Christ or His apostles (Romans 1:26-27, Matthew 19:4-5, Matthew 15:19 for the curious on this particular topic, Jesus explains that marriage is to be between a man and a woman, that sex outside of marriage - fornication - is sin, and then Paul in Romans clarifies the topic even further), like a person who claims to be a vegan while chowing down on a steak. So this case is no different, just more people trying to falsely represent Christianity, like a satirical mockery that still fools people.

Further warning in Acts 20:28-30, which echoes the warnings from Jesus Himself in Matthew 7:15.

But also in Matthew 7, is the very first verse, "Judge not, that ye be not judged," so we should still always remember not to hate or persecute, but to say a prayer (Matthew 5:44). We are all sinners, and God desires everyone to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-4), and that definitely includes these lesbian pastors.
 
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ken777

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So? We've already covered that. My argument still stands.

I posit that the claim that the whole range of human feelings & emotions was known to the authors of the Bible is without foundation. My argument is a lot more plausible than yours, so it's up to you to prove it wrong.

Agreed, but that doesn't relate to the modern concept of homosexuality.

Again, so what?

I'm not sure that you are correctly representing the text here, but it still changes nothing. What is being described in this scripture is not the same as the concept and experience of most gay people. You are forcing the scripture to apply to a situation it doesn't actually address.
You seem to trying to build an argument on what you perceive to be the difference between "lust" and "attraction". The word "pathe" in Romans 1:26 refers to feelings & emotions so is quite appropriate to describe homosexuality as it is understood today. Paul distinguishes between feelings and lust by using a stronger word in Romans 1:27.

Paul's arguments in Romans 1 can be seen in the key phrases he uses, such as "men who suppress the truth", "they did not honor Him as God", "they exchanged the truth of God for a lie", "did not see fit to acknowledge God".

Because they did not respect God's natural laws, "God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper".

I could not think of a better description for the situation we see today.
 
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S.O.J.I.A.

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To quote you in full, you said "this is the only romantic relationship approved in Scripture. a man and a woman in marriage". Which you now say is the same as "between men and women". Or more specifically, between a man, up to 700 women, and a number of concubines. And possibly (and unromantically) one's rape victims and prisoners of war.

Those things are NOT the same. So you can say you were right all you like, but the evidence is there for all to see.

yet again, all between men and women. this thread is about two lesbians being promoted to the pastorate and the discussion is on whether or not this is right according to scripture which brings up the question of whether or not homosexuality is a sin.

your graphic does nothing in providing evidence that homosexuality is not a sin.
 
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FireDragon76

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The foundation of the Gospel Jesus preached is love & forgiveness, but based on repentance. Matthew 4:17

Always a "but..." in there with you guys?. When you preach this kind of love and forgiveness, you are really preaching no Gospel at all. It's another cruel program of works-righteousness for the afflicted to burden their backs. No wonder so many people cannot be bothered with Christianity. If that so-called Gospel is true, then I'm afraid there is no hope in it, if we are honest with ourselves. Who among us can be sure they are perfectly repentant?.

All I have to say to that is Matthew 11:28-30
 
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2Timothy2:15

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The "let your yes be yes and your no be no" quote is talking about oaths, not questions.

I don't see why I should answer a question that you haven't fully explained.

I won't answer a complex question with a simple answer.

I won't be bullied.

No one is bullying you. It is a simple question, and I do not know how more simple I can frame it.

Matthew 5:37 is not exclusive to "oaths" as you suggest.

Here is the greek word used in the text.

Vine's Expository Dictionary: lxxvi. λαλέω, λέγω (λαλιά, λόγος).
lxxxix. φωνή, λόγος.
xc. λόγος, μῦθος.

KJV Translation Count — Total: 330x
The KJV translates Strong's G3056 in the following manner: word (218x), saying (50x), account (8x), speech (8x), Word (Christ) (7x), thing (5x), not translated (2x), miscellaneous (32x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
  1. of speech
    1. a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea

    2. what someone has said
      1. a word

      2. the sayings of God

      3. decree, mandate or order

      4. of the moral precepts given by God

      5. Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets

      6. what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim
    3. discourse
      1. the act of speaking, speech

      2. the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking

      3. a kind or style of speaking

      4. a continuous speaking discourse - instruction
    4. doctrine, teaching

    5. anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative
Not it is simply about communicating an answer.

Now, what is your answer, yes or no, the bible says anything else is from the evil one.....you decide.

Is God cool with homosexuality?
Is God cool with homosexual pastors?

Yes or No, does not get much more direct.
 
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Mrs.PGL

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I am saying that He praised the FAITH of the centurion. But if He felt it was wrong, would He not have spoken against it?
And He wouldn't have protected that young child from a pervert trying to have sex with him? You're losing perspective Brendan
 
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Mrs.PGL

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And you've never held on to ONE sin in all your life? Not even a little bit unrepentant? Maybe, for instance, you have to much pride in how holy you are?
I would suggest that you talk to Christ. He said that homosexuals would not go to heaven.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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That's correct, but irrelevant to the discussion. I would argue that many homosexuals also are not acting out of sexual lust, any more than heterosexuals are. So the problem isn't homosexuality, it's lust.
An assertion in your post was made about what Hosea did that was meant to cast a Biblical view of marriage in a very poor light. Given Hosea did nothing wrong - I think it is relevant to this discussion that this attempt was a fail in that regard. To someone unfamiliar with the story Hosea's story, saying that he married a "prostitute" could indeed sound like a lust situation and also grossly mis-characterizes the story.
Most sexual sins do begin as thoughts, then lust before an act is committed. So yes, all homosexuals engaging in sex (married or not) are giving in to that lust same as any heterosexual having sex outside marriage. Giving into such lust was a point of several NT quotes others gave about homosexual activity, which as I recall, like the idea of Biblical marriage, were also dismissed.
I won't comment on this because I don't understand what you mean.
If that part of my post was not understood then neither was the Bible reference understood given for Hosea allegedly marrying a "prostitute" in the attempt to smear a Biblical concept of marriage. God had Hosea marry a pagan for a reason - understanding that reason should help one understand what I meant.
Also correct, but that fact doesn't say anything about homosexual relationships, or any other type of relationship for that matter. It obviously didn't exclude polygamy or concubines. You can't base your argument on what is not said.
No. "That fact" regarding your list of OT marriage says a lot about what was allowed because of the weaknesses of men. Same sex marriage and any other sort of marriage is absent from the list because it was not allowed because they knew it was wrong. And we know it was not because all sorts of sexual activity outside of marriage between a man and a woman was also a part of the same law. Any homosexual acts make the OT list of sinful acts to be punished as such. So we should not wonder that same sex unions did not make your distorted list of marriages.
Nothing about your list demonstrates what was right, commanded or ordained with God - He spoke that plainly in Gen 2. Polygamy was not even a common practice with the Israelites - something only the elite could afford and allowed not because God ordained it but because of the sinfulness of men (we want a king - king should have status - wives equaled status..etc). Concubines and substitute "wives" are examples of the weakness of some men. How can we accept Biblical examples of the weaknesses of men and sinning justifies the corruption of marriage as God ordained it then infer from those examples that we should therefore condone all such corruption today?
Also, being forced to marry your rapists is surely less acceptable than two consenting adults getting married. But maybe I have strange standards: I guess I do when compared to some of the Old Covenant laws, but I'm comfortable with that. If you're not, then make sure your tzitzit are firmly attached.
Again some context matters. If we consider verbal tradition, we are talking what, about 6k years ago or so. The societal norms of morality compared to today was different. We cannot take evidence from that era of the widespread brutality and measures to curb their sinfulness (the Law), in order to compare that to how one should supposedly be "comfortable" with sinful behavior today. I would hope everyone's standards today, especially Christians, are higher than the norm of that ancient world. Am unclear how those low standards of the past mean we should be "comfortable" with sin today.

Rape? We are talking about an earth full of people where "an eye for an eye" was a revolutionary morale concept. Until then it would be something like "slaughter your entire village including animals for looking at my cow wrong" if someone felt like it. Women were treated as property. A girl raped would have been shunned by family or killed. She would have been blamed (wrongfully) for inciting the lust of the rapist. She certainly would not be marriage material, so a death sentence either way. So "the law" in that regard represents progress being made in the hearts of men.
It took God a long time to change their hearts to the point where His saying "Love one another" clearly made such "laws" archaic relics of the Biblical recorded history of man's sinful past. He did not say "love one another" means we can do whatever we want sexually. Nor did He ever say "I was only making male/female a suggestion when I made you that way."
 
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Mrs.PGL

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I find those numbers dubious.

What was the sample size?
What was the sampling method?
Was this a double blind test?
How were the questions phrased?
How were the questions asked?

There are many ways to skew a poll.
ask the authors. Gallop poles are accurate - unless one wants to deceive people
 
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