Baptism

FaithT

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I’ve been to two Baptisms this month. One was a Catholic baptism of my grandson and another was done on a teen I did not know at my Lutheran church during worship. My grandson is a baby and the ceremony took quite awhile, by appointment, after Mass. The one done at my church was a took just a few minutes, if even that.
Why the difference?
 

chevyontheriver

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I’ve been to two Baptisms this month. One was a Catholic baptism of my grandson and another was done on a teen I did not know at my Lutheran church during worship. My grandson is a baby and the ceremony took quite awhile, by appointment, after Mass. The one done at my church was a took just a few minutes, if even that.
Why the difference?
A Catholic baptism usually includes a minor exorcism and an anointing with chrism oils. I don't know if a Lutheran baptism includes those two things. That might make for the difference in how long it took.
 
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ViaCrucis

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A Catholic baptism usually includes a minor exorcism and an anointing with chrism oils. I don't know if a Lutheran baptism includes those two things. That might make for the difference in how long it took.

The Lutheran baptismal services I've witnessed include the same. In fact one of the major controversies of the Reformation apparently, between Lutherans and Calvinists, is that Lutherans insisted on retaining the exorcism, where the Calvinists did not. I suspect that in most cases the Lutheran and Catholic baptismal rites are nearly identical.

Upon some further looking into it, I came across this from a Lutheran blog, speaking of Luther's baptismal rite books, the first published in 1523 was effectively a straight German translation of the Latin rite with very few changes; but in 1526 put forward a new edition which reduced some of what was seen as extraneous, to put more emphasis on the Baptism itself.

"Overall, Luther’s main concern was that the parents and sponsors hear God’s Word and pray for the one being baptized. He mentions that some of the other “external things” were less important.[11] And so when the 1526 revision was published, many of these rites were gone. Gone was the blowing under the eyelids, the salt, the spit, the anointing and even the baptismal candle. Several prayers were omitted. In general, the whole service was shortened. Previously Luther had left many of these ceremonies in because of “weak consciences,” but three years later he was comfortable removing them." - https://lutheranreformation.org/worship/luthers-baptismal-rites/

This may help account for the differences in how long the Rite takes, the Lutheran Baptismal Rite may be more "streamlined" as it were--getting to the actual Baptism itself and not worrying too much about additional ceremony.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Andrewn

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A Catholic baptism usually includes a minor exorcism and an anointing with chrism oils.

Gone was the blowing under the eyelids, the salt, the spit, the anointing and even the baptismal candle.
EO perform chrismation immediately after baptism and it is considered a very important sacrament that involves the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the baptized.

Do the statements above mean that belief in the sacrament of chrismation persists among Catholics but not among Lutherans?
 
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chevyontheriver

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The Lutheran baptismal services I've witnessed include the same. In fact one of the major controversies of the Reformation apparently, between Lutherans and Calvinists, is that Lutherans insisted on retaining the exorcism, where the Calvinists did not. I suspect that in most cases the Lutheran and Catholic baptismal rites are nearly identical.

Upon some further looking into it, I came across this from a Lutheran blog, speaking of Luther's baptismal rite books, the first published in 1523 was effectively a straight German translation of the Latin rite with very few changes; but in 1526 put forward a new edition which reduced some of what was seen as extraneous, to put more emphasis on the Baptism itself.

"Overall, Luther’s main concern was that the parents and sponsors hear God’s Word and pray for the one being baptized. He mentions that some of the other “external things” were less important.[11] And so when the 1526 revision was published, many of these rites were gone. Gone was the blowing under the eyelids, the salt, the spit, the anointing and even the baptismal candle. Several prayers were omitted. In general, the whole service was shortened. Previously Luther had left many of these ceremonies in because of “weak consciences,” but three years later he was comfortable removing them." - https://lutheranreformation.org/worship/luthers-baptismal-rites/

This may help account for the differences in how long the Rite takes, the Lutheran Baptismal Rite may be more "streamlined" as it were--getting to the actual Baptism itself and not worrying too much about additional ceremony.

-CryptoLutheran
Never even heard of 'blowing under the eyelids'.

I wonder if all kinds of Lutherans use the same rites. I think Catholic priests have to follow the ritual fairly closely.

We had a baptism last Sunday as part of the mass and it did include the exorcism (with salt) and the chrism oils. It didn't take long.

I suspect another possibility for a long Catholic version could also make for a long Lutheran one. I think there is the option for additional readings. Checking.
 
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tampasteve

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In my time in both the Lutheran and Catholic churches I can say that the Baptisms I saw were nearly identical in both of them. My experience is in the ELCA Lutheran Church, so it may vary from LCMS or others. The ELCA church I was a part of was more "traditional" and used the more traditional rites.
 
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chevyontheriver

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EO perform chrismation immediately after baptism and it is considered a very important sacrament that involves the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the baptized.

Do the statements above mean that belief in the sacrament of chrismation persists among Catholics but not among Lutherans?
I would not be implying that and would need information on whether the intent of chrismation was present or absent in Lutheran rites. Catholics do have a separate sacrament of confirmation and most of the magisterial Protestants have kept that even while it is not quite considered a sacrament by all of them.

Chrismation would seem to require chrism oil. Do Lutherans have chrism oil?
 
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chevyontheriver

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The Lutheran baptismal services I've witnessed include the same. In fact one of the major controversies of the Reformation apparently, between Lutherans and Calvinists, is that Lutherans insisted on retaining the exorcism, where the Calvinists did not. I suspect that in most cases the Lutheran and Catholic baptismal rites are nearly identical.

Upon some further looking into it, I came across this from a Lutheran blog, speaking of Luther's baptismal rite books, the first published in 1523 was effectively a straight German translation of the Latin rite with very few changes; but in 1526 put forward a new edition which reduced some of what was seen as extraneous, to put more emphasis on the Baptism itself.

"Overall, Luther’s main concern was that the parents and sponsors hear God’s Word and pray for the one being baptized. He mentions that some of the other “external things” were less important.[11] And so when the 1526 revision was published, many of these rites were gone. Gone was the blowing under the eyelids, the salt, the spit, the anointing and even the baptismal candle. Several prayers were omitted. In general, the whole service was shortened. Previously Luther had left many of these ceremonies in because of “weak consciences,” but three years later he was comfortable removing them." - https://lutheranreformation.org/worship/luthers-baptismal-rites/

This may help account for the differences in how long the Rite takes, the Lutheran Baptismal Rite may be more "streamlined" as it were--getting to the actual Baptism itself and not worrying too much about additional ceremony.

-CryptoLutheran
While we are looking at the language I want to bring up something that has been a problem in Catholic sacramental practice. Saying 'I baptize you ...' is according to the rite. Saying 'We baptize you ....' is considered so verboten it is considered no baptism at all. A priest recently watched a video of his own baptism and heard them say 'We baptize you ....' and he called up his bishop, who rebaptized him, reconfirmed him, and reordained him.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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Chrismation would seem to require chrism oil. Do Lutherans have chrism oil?

It wasnt used when I was confirmed LCMS in 1980. Confirmation is not considered a sacrament but rather a human rite, mainly for being able to receive communion. It is considered to be a "public affirmation of baptism and faith". So I had a 2 year confirmation class with lots of memorization and review of Luther's Small Catechism and explanation to various questions.
 
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chevyontheriver

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It wasnt used when I was confirmed LCMS in 1980. Confirmation is not considered a sacrament but rather a human rite, mainly for being able to receive communion. It is considered to be a "public affirmation of baptism and faith". So I had a 2 year confirmation class with lots of memorization and review of Luther's Small Catechism and explanation to various questions.
The confirmation class sounds like a fairly good idea. But no chrism oil?
 
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GreekOrthodox

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ViaCrucis

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EO perform chrismation immediately after baptism and it is considered a very important sacrament that involves the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the baptized.

Do the statements above mean that belief in the sacrament of chrismation persists among Catholics but not among Lutherans?

The linked blog post mentions that some of the things removed from the 1526 revision have made a comeback, such as baptismal candles.

I've never witnessed a baptism that didn't include the use of chrism in a Lutheran church. I honestly couldn't tell you if this is universal, though my experience and conversations about it lead me to believe it's pretty standard. But the use of chrism isn't considered a distinct Sacrament from Holy Baptism.

The statements by @GreekOrthodox above would suggest to me that perhaps these things may be related to time and place, there has been a fairly strong commitments among American Lutheran bodies toward liturgical renewal, which has included bringing back more traditional liturgical elements. Partly because American Lutheranism had historically suffered a kind of identity crisis, and the stress on being distinctively Lutheran has become more important in more recent times.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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While we are looking at the language I want to bring up something that has been a problem in Catholic sacramental practice. Saying 'I baptize you ...' is according to the rite. Saying 'We baptize you ....' is considered so verboten it is considered no baptism at all. A priest recently watched a video of his own baptism and heard them say 'We baptize you ....' and he called up his bishop, who rebaptized him, reconfirmed him, and reordained him.

The Baptismal Rite used by the ELCA can be found here in the ELW (Evangelical Lutheran Worship):
http://allsaintsoakcreek.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/ELW-Holy-Baptism.pdf

The Baptismal Rite used by the LCMS can be found in the LSB (Lutheran Service Book), example here:
https://www.ziongwinner.org/Christmas 1 baptism liturgy.pdf

-CryptoLutheran
 
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While we are looking at the language I want to bring up something that has been a problem in Catholic sacramental practice. Saying 'I baptize you ...' is according to the rite. Saying 'We baptize you ....' is considered so verboten it is considered no baptism at all. A priest recently watched a video of his own baptism and heard them say 'We baptize you ....' and he called up his bishop, who rebaptized him, reconfirmed him, and reordained him.
Orthodox wording is careful to express that baptism isn't something necessarily done by the priest or even the local ecclesiastical community, but is ultimately something done by God.

The servant of God (name) is baptised in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Amen.​

http://www.greekorthodox.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/GOAA-BAPTISM-English.pdf
 
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FaithT

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The ones at my church don’t take that long.

If the church is contemporary in style, I'm not too surprised that the Baptism was quick. When I was baptised in Hillsong London, it was basically: "Do you believe in Jesus? Do you accept Him as your Lord and Saviour?" "Yes." DUNK. Baptised. :) No real liturgy or preaching, except for people sharing their testimonies.

But I think it's good to appreciate that it's not the level of formality or the length of the Baptismal service that constitutes a real Baptism, but God's Word and promise to us in connection to the water, and our faith that apprehends it. We can know this from the Bible — for example, the eunuch in Acts 8 was baptised on the spot, though after receiving God's Word on the way — so even that Baptism was not void of preaching.

Baptism is God's work through the Church. But it's for that reason that the orthodox rites (Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Lutheran, and Anglican) are done with the reverence, instruction, and clarity it deserves. So if you're left with an impression of the LCMS Baptism being quick, I suspect that's due to the influence of charismatic churches in that particular congregation. The LCMS, to my knowledge, promotes three Baptismal rites. One general, one alternative based on Luther's rite, and one short rite in case of emergencies.
 
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