Baptism?

[Orthodox Andrew]

Is it considered a proper Baptismal if you're whole body does not get touched by the water?

 

[MariaRegina]

What does one do in the desert during a drought? I read a passage where the Holy Fathers would baptize using sand - which has some moisture in it.

In San Francisco, in the 1960's a young man was dying after being bitten by a shark. His Catholic fiancee asked him is he sincerely repented of all his sins and if he believed in Christ and desired baptism. He said, "yes." Then she quickly ran to the ocean and using a beer can (I think) filled it up and baptized him in the name of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit. He died immediately after receiving Holy Baptism. Our God is a God of mercy and love.

 

[Orthodox Andrew]

Thanks you very much. I asked that question because I was reading a book by Bishop Timothy Ware, and he felt it was wrong for any Orthodox Church to only spread a little water on a person's head for Baptismal. He felt one's body must be entirely covered with water for it to be a true Baptism, except under special circumstances. Much like the one you had mentioned.

 

[Orthodox Andrew]

So am I right to say Bishop Ware is wrong on this issue?

 

[MariaRegina]

So am I right to say Bishop Ware is wrong on this issue?

Dear Andreas:

What did Bishop Ware say? Can you give a direct quote. Here's what I found in the Didache (~60 AD).

Concerning Baptism. And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

Your sister in Christ,
Elizabeth

 

[Orthodox Andrew]

Thanks for that quote from the Didache, Chanter. I'm going to look to see if I can find the quote in the book by Bishop Ware, and type it out for you.

 

[Orthodox Andrew]

I just found it and typed it.

"Many Orthodox are disturbed by the fact that western Christendom, abandoning the primitive practice of Baptism by immersion, is now content merely to pour a little water over the candidate's forehand, or even to smear some slight moisture on the forehead without pouring any water at all (regrettably this is now becoming frequent in the Anglican communion). Even though some Orthodox have grown careless about observing proper practice, there is not doubt about the true Orthodox teaching: immersion is essential (except in emergencies), for if there is no immersion the correspondence between outward sign and inward sign are lost, and symbolism of the sacrament is overthrown. Baptism signifies a mystical burial and resurrection..."


Excerpt from "The Orthodox Chruch" By Timothy Ware

 

[MariaRegina]

I just found it and typed it.

"Many Orthodox are disturbed by the fact that western Christendom, abandoning the primitive practice of Baptism by immersion, is now content merely to pour a little water over the candidate's forehand, or even to smear some slight moisture on the forehead without pouring any water at all (regrettably this is now becoming frequent in the Anglican communion). Even though some Orthodox have grown careless about observing proper practice, there is not doubt about the true Orthodox teaching: immersion is essential (except in emergencies), for if there is no immersion the correspondence between outward sign and inward sign are lost, and symbolism of the sacrament is overthrown. Baptism signifies a mystical burial and resurrection..."


Excerpt from "The Orthodox Chruch" By Timothy Ware

His Grace Bishop Kallistos certainly knows what is going on in the Church. I do believe he is correct. Both the Didache and the good bishop are saying the same thing. Water is to be poured if the person cannot be immersed in running water.
Some of our Orthodox Churches are building huge baptistries that can accommodate an adult for the full immersion.

Your sister in Christ,
Elizabeth

 

[Orthodox Andrew]

His Grace Bishop Kallistos certainly knows what is going on in the Church. I do believe he is correct. Both the Didache and the good bishop are saying the same thing. Water is to be poured if the person cannot be immersed in running water.
Some of our Orthodox Churches are building huge baptistries that can accommodate an adult for the full immersion.

Your sister in Christ,
Elizabeth

Thank you. You just helped me clear up a few things.

 

[Matrona]

Some of our Orthodox Churches are building huge baptistries that can accommodate an adult for the full immersion.

Aww, no more horse trough baptisms?

(At least my horse trough baptism will be something I can tell my kids about. )

 

[eleni]

We have a priest here that goes to a 'river' and does the babtism there.after they celebrate with the families present...

If I may ask a question...My father in law was sick and dying in hospital (Roman Catholic)and I annointed him with some holy oil on his feet ,hands ,forehead ..saying the words (in my head)I babtise you in the name of the Father ,Son, and Holy Spirit an Orthodox Christian...was wondering and still not sure..does that make him an orthodox Christian???
Only my husband knows and not my mother in law..
He was pretty sick with Alzeimers and went through quite alot.....
He passed away on the day of the Archangels, Michael, Gabriel, Raphael and it was a miracle in my eyes because on that last day we visited him in hospital....he looked very peaceful and was looking up ...we went home and then received a call from the hospital to say he passed away....
Lord have mercy on his soul..
helen..

I forgot to mention that his name (my father in law) was Raphael....

 

[Orthodox Andrew]

Eleni,

I'm not sure, but unless he accepted Orthodoxy on a true level, I doubt it. However I do know that the Roman Catholic Church teaches that a Catholic can be Baptized even by a atheist, if it's an emergency situation. However I could be wrong, but I do recall reading about it. But if may I ask, did he accept The Holy Orthodox Church as the one true Catholic Church? Or was he too sick to make such a decision?

 

[eleni]

Andreas my father in law while alive spoke of the Roman Catholic church as being traitors because of WW11 ...something about being traitors(not so sure the reason)and when I asked him about the sign of the Cross he always showed me three fingers and did the sign of theCross like the Othodox from Right to left....my mother in law would get quite upset about this,so I did not go into it much...
In hospital he was very sick..he did not recognise many people and would look up on the ceiling and do a sign of the Cross.but would not speak much to anyone.....he just layed there..
What his thought were God only knows....
When he was sick and at home ...hesaw strange things like small creatures running around the house.my mother in law said he was crazy.but I told her to get an exorcism and do some Prayers .but she said it was the condition he had that caused all this.I believe it was because he was being tested by demons and his faith in God.....
On one occasion I took with me some Holy oil and kept it hidden in my pocket...when I approached my father in law he went quite wild and mad looking..he told me to show him what was in my hand and pocket..no one knew this.I did this on my own ......how else would he have known what I had?
I also brought with me prayers of Saint Cyprian and he told me to go....but he did calm down later...
helen..

 

[Orthodox Andrew]

Very interesting, thanks for sharing that with us. I guess since it was an emergency Baptismal, and he accepted the teaching of Orthodoxy, I can only assume that makes him on some level Orthodox. But I guess we would have to know his deepest thoughts and feelings, to really know the truth about his faith in this situation.

 

[eleni]

I guess it doesn't hurt to use prayer for all of mankind because we are all...made ''in the image of God'' and i'm sure God has a way for the truth to be known to all of us.no matter when that time is ....whether it comes at the last breath we take in this earthly existence ...
helen.

 

[MariaRegina]

I guess it doesn't hurt to use prayer for all of mankind because we are all...made ''in the image of God'' and i'm sure God has a way for the truth to be known to all of us.no matter when that time is ....whether it comes at the last breath we take in this earthly existence ...
helen.

Dear Helen:

The sacraments in the Orthodox Church are only administered by an Orthodox Priest; however, that does not mean you cannot pray for another person or even anoint them with blessed oil.

There are some fundamentalists who say that lay people should not say "God bless you" as that is the priest's function. That's going a little far - the Irish who were converted by Orthodox monks have been saying "God bless you" for a long long long time.

Anyway, have you heard of the Harvard study done last century. It was published around the turn of the century. They took people who were terminal and assigned them to three different groups. One group knew they had been paired with a prayer partner, the second group didn't know that someone was praying for them, and the third group wasn't assigned any prayer partners.
The differences between the first two groups compared with the third group were astounding. The people who had prayer partners had a longer life span. The researchers quickly paired the third group with prayer partners. These people then began to improve and have longer survival rates.

Prayer is effective -- that is why the Didache encourages us to pray and fast for our enemies.

Love in Christ,
Elizabeth

 

[Seraphim Reeves]

This is a somewhat confusing area for people, because the principles of exactitude and economy are little understood, and often, are mischaracterized and abused by people who should know better.

"Exactitude" simply means, doing what the Church properly does, according to the letter and spirit of Holy Tradition. "Economy" would be some sort of leniency on the Church's part in regards to these norms, when it is in the interest of someone's salvation. For example, "economy" is often practiced in regard to rules regarding fasting, in the case of someone who a pastor of souls knows cannot properly observe them, or in regards to the enforcement of certain disciplinary canons (for example, showing leniency in the penances canonically mandated for certain sins - which are often quite severe.)

In reality, the only proper, genuine Baptism is that...

- Performed by an Orthodox Priest, and occuring within the Orthodox Church of Christ
- threefold immersion, with the proper prayer
- is followed up immediately with Chrismation and Holy Communion; this completes the initiation of a Christian into the Body of Christ

Many people believe there are "baptisms" in the proper sense, outside of Orthodoxy. This is due to misinformation they've received (generally because of the ecumenical movement), or ignorance regarding the significance of economy in Orthodox observences.

This confusion comes, mainly, because there is a long standing (though definately not universally observed - the Greeks for example, were historically on again, off again, on this subject, as even were the Russians at a few points in their history) custom of receiving converts from heterodox groups whose former "baptisms" have maintained enough of the "form" of a genuine, Orthodox Baptism. Such persons are typically received by a profession of faith, rejection of heresy, and Chrismation & Communion - that is to say, without being placed into the Baptismal Font.

It is very easy to see such a thing, and either assume (out of innocent ignorance) or even be falsely told, that the significance of it all, is that "oh, they were already truly baptized in their previous denomination." This is not correct. The Christian Mysteries, are acts of the Body of Christ, which is synonymous with the Orthodox Church.

Strictly speaking, converts from heterodox groups can be received outright by Baptism. Why? Because such would not be a case of baptizing them twice "in truth", because they only had the "form" of baptism before, but not the grace thereof. It is this Grace, which is given by the Church alone, and given by Her when She (out of condescension) receives heterodox converts without giving them the "waters of Baptism" again. The best image would be, that the Church is filling an empty vessel - the vessel is fine, but it was empty before that person approached the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

It is because of the confusion synonymous with the current practice of sacramental economy in the case of converts from heterodox bodies, that many groups (whether it be the Jerusalem Patriarchate, ROCOR, the monks on Mt.Athos, the Greek Old Calendarists, etc.) will only receive converts by "exactitude" - precisely because, sadly, the leniency often practiced by the Church towards converts, is actively misconstrued to faciliate the heterodox ideas underlying ecumenism (that the Church exists in divided, doctrinally disagreeing "branches", with some perhaps being better than others - but all somehow "part" of the Church).

As for documents like the Didache, what they are outlining is the economy which occurs within the Church. If there are dire circumstances preventing a proper Baptism, there is a great deal of lee-way that can occur in the Church's ability to confer a true Baptism.

- If water is scarce, or some other circumstance exists which prevents a proper Baptism, a person can simply have water poured over their head
- If there is a grave emergency, an Orthodox layman can Baptize someone.

Of course, even the above situations (if the possibility eventually presents itself) need to be completed; hence, if the person Baptized gets well, or can avail themself of this, they must be put through the other ceremonies of Baptism, and also be properly Chrismated and Communed. While this "economy" within the Church has some similarities to that practiced in regards to converts, it is fundamentally different, for these are unequivocally acts of the Church of Christ, where as a heterodox "baptism", of itself (without later correction) is not.

Seraphim

 

[MariaRegina]

Dear Seraphim:

Thanks for your post. Have they set a date for your baptism yet?

Yours in Christ,
Elizabeth