baptism with water or holy spirit? or both?

[Presbyterian Continuist]

"Pentecostals identify three distinct uses of the word "baptism" in the New Testament:

• Baptism into the body of Christ: This refers to salvation. Every believer in Christ is made a part of his body, the Church, through baptism. The Holy Spirit is the agent, and the body of Christ is the medium.[25]
• Water baptism: Symbolic of dying to the world and living in Christ, water baptism is an outward symbol of that which has already been accomplished by the Holy Spirit, namely baptism into the body of Christ.[26]
• Baptism with the Holy Spirit: This is an experience distinct from baptism into the body of Christ. In this baptism, Christ is the agent and the Holy Spirit is the medium.[25]"

Pentecostalism - Wikipedia

Baptism with the Holy Spirit "gives to the receiver an 'enduement of power for life and service, the bestowment of the gifts and their uses in the work of the ministry'. There are four experiences listed in the Fundamental Truths that result from Spirit baptism: 'overflowing fullness of the Spirit', 'a deepened reverence for God', intensified consecration and dedication to God and his work, and 'a more active love for Christ, for His Word and for the lost'."

Assemblies of God USA - Wikipedia

That is certainly AOG doctrine, and because I was converted in an AOG church, I subscribed to that doctrine for many years, and actually taught it and wrote a book about it on the basis of that doctrine. But in recent years after carefully studying the New Testament Scriptures, I could see that the support for it was weak, almost non existent, and the support for conversion and baptism with the Spirit happening at the same time was much stronger; so I amended my theology to maintaining that baptism into the body of Christ and with the Holy Spirit happen at exactly the same time, with water baptism occurring soon afteward.

 

[Andrewn]

That is certainly AOG doctrine, and because I was converted in an AOG church, I subscribed to that doctrine for many years, and actually taught it and wrote a book about it on the basis of that doctrine.

Wow, you really studied the subject.

But in recent years after carefully studying the New Testament Scriptures, I could see that the support for it was weak, almost non existent,

How do you understand Acts 8:15-17?

and the support for conversion and baptism with the Spirit happening at the same time was much stronger; so I amended my theology to maintaining that baptism into the body of Christ and with the Holy Spirit happen at exactly the same time,

Would you present some of this evidence?

with water baptism occurring soon afteward.

For many / most Christians, water baptism is the only true baptism through which one is baptized with the Holy Spirit (similar to the Lord's baptism). What do you say to this?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Wow, you really studied the subject.


How do you understand Acts 8:15-17?


Would you present some of this evidence?


For many / most Christians, water baptism is the only true baptism through which one is baptized with the Holy Spirit (similar to the Lord's baptism). What do you say to this?

The Acts 8 reference is the reason why I didn't do a complete rewrite of my book which includes the steps to receiving the baptism with the Spirit and the gift of tongues. And it is also the reason why I have not rejected that a person can be saved and baptised and not baptised with the Spirit. I don't have all the answers to that. So, if someone asks me to help to receive the baptism with the Spirit I take them through the steps"
* Believing that it is God's will for them
* Asking for the baptism
* Receiving it by faith
* Activating their faith by speaking in tongues.

[Note for those who want to engage in a debate about tongues, please don't! Go to the other threads that have had comprehensive debates about tongues and read all the posts there.]

The result is that they will be baptised with the Spirit and the Spirit will flow out of them.

But I am not going to tell a person who believes they are baptised with the Spirit at conversion as many do. that they are not. I tell them that now they have the infilling of the Spirit, they need to allow Him to flow out of them in either tongues, prophecy, or any of the other gifts as the Spirit decides to manifest through them. So I ask them whether they think it is God's will for them to have the gift of tongues. If not, then I leave them to wait further on God to see how the Holy Spirit wants to manifest Himself through them. If they do, then I take them through the same steps to receive that gift.

So, it doesn't really matter how a person receives the Holy Spirit, because when the Spirit is manifesting Himself through them with His tools of trade, then the outcome is the same. It is a matter of according to one's faith be it unto them.

 

[Phil W]

No. People are baptized with the Holy Spirit first. This is believed to be when people speak in tongues. Only people who have been baptized by the Holy Sprit are to be baptized in water.

That only happened once, to Cornelius.
The reason the baptism of the Holy Spirit happened first was so the Jews would acknowledge that the Gentiles too had been given deliverance.
"When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life." (Acts 11:18)
Peter, in Acts 2:38, enunciated the normal order of things..."Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
Repent and be baptized AND THEN you will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[Phil W]

That only happened once, to Cornelius.
The reason the baptism of the Holy Spirit happened first was so the Jews would acknowledge that the Gentiles too had been given deliverance.
"When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life." (Acts 11:18)
Peter, in Acts 2:38, enunciated the normal order of things..."Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
Repent and be baptized AND you will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

BTW, without a complete turn from sin, repentance from sin, there will be no gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[GodLovesCats]

So according to Acts 2:38, both baptisms happen at the same time.

 

[Phil W]

So according to Acts 2:38, both baptisms happen at the same time.

Nope.
Turn from sin and get baptized in Jesus' name for the remission of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
The baptism of the Holy Ghost is a gift given because we have turned from sin and gotten baptized for the remission of past sins and into Christ and into His death, burial, and resurrection.
The baptism of the Holy Ghost is a gift given because of our obedience to the words of Peter.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Water baptism is totally unnecesary to receive the Holy Spirit gift of baptism.

 

[Phil W]

Water baptism is totally unnecesary to receive the Holy Spirit gift of baptism.

Then Peter was wrong.
So was Paul and the twelve at Ephesus.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Then Peter was wrong.
So was Paul and the twelve at Ephesus.

How do you explain people being baptized by the Holy Spirit before getting water baptisms? The former is given freely to pepole who are saved. Salvation does not depend on being dunked in a pool at church.

 

[Andrewn]

The Acts 8 reference is the reason why I didn't do a complete rewrite of my book which includes the steps to receiving the baptism with the Spirit and the gift of tongues. And it is also the reason why I have not rejected that a person can be saved and baptised and not baptised with the Spirit.

But I am not going to tell a person who believes they are baptised with the Spirit at conversion as many do. that they are not. I tell them that now they have the infilling of the Spirit, they need to allow Him to flow out of them in either tongues, prophecy, or any of the other gifts as the Spirit decides to manifest through them.

Basically, the Spirit blows where he wishes (Joh 3:8) and this is why people's experiences are different.

 

[Andrewn]

How do you explain people being baptized by the Holy Spirit before getting water baptisms? The former is given freely to pepole who are saved. Salvation does not depend on being dunked in a pool at church.

Salvation doesn't depend on water Baptism / Immersion but water Baptism / Immersion is a powerful means of grace by which God grants faith and the forgiveness of sins.

1) The Bible teaches that a person is saved by God’s grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ alone. The Bible tells us that such “faith comes by hearing” (Rom. 10:17).

2) The Lord Himself commands Baptism and tells us that Baptism in water used together with the Word of God (Matt. 28:19-20; Mar 16:16).

3) The Apostles taught that Baptism is one of the miraculous means of grace, through which God creates and/or strengthens the gift of faith in a person’s heart (see Acts 2:38; Acts 8:26-40; Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21; Gal. 3:26-27; Rom. 6:1-4; Col. 2:11-12; 1 Cor. 12.13).

4) In conclusion, water Baptism / Immersion must not be despised or willfully neglected, since it is explicitly commanded by God and has His precious promises attached to it.

 

[tturt]

There's a doctrine of baptismS,..." (Heb 6:2)

There are 3 baptisms; specifically:

1 - By The Holy Spirit into Jesus is the baptism for salvation (blood baptism)
(Rev 1:5; Matt 26:28; Mark 1:4, 16:16; Luk 3:3; 1 Cor 12:13: Acts 2:38: Gal 3:27, +++)
Also, "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise," Eph 1:13

Water and Spirit baptism follows - not in a set order:
2 - By another believer (water baptism) (Matt 28:19++++!)
3 - By Jesus with or into The Holy Spirit (The Spirit baptism)
(Matt 3:11; Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16; Acts 11:16++++)'

And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." I John 5:7-8

 

[Phil W]

How do you explain people being baptized by the Holy Spirit before getting water baptisms? The former is given freely to pepole who are saved. Salvation does not depend on being dunked in a pool at church.

That happened exactly one time, to Cornelius and those with him.
That one time was to show the Jews that God had also accepted the Gentiles.
I'll stick with Peter's exhortation from Acts 2:38.
Turn from sin.
Get water baptized in Jesus' name for the remission of sins.
Receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[Kaon]

i dont know if baptism with water is strictly required or not

It is not. John the Baptist was performing outward acts that alluded to the Redeemer fulfilling prophecy.

The Redeemer Himself said you must be born of 1) water, and 2) spirit. When He was questioned about more details on this, the implication was that natural humans are already born of water (a woman), but you must be born again (of spirit).

People who participated in the baptism were showing their faith in the prophecy of the Redeemer; even the Redeemer Himself did this to further show His faith, and to support His cousin as well - who had undoubtedly been called crazy and/or a lunatic for eating locust with honey in the wilderness, and dunking naked adults in river water.

 

[Andrewn]

It is not.

This is not true. I explained that water Baptism is required in message #32.

 

[Danthemailman]

Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the one requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? - *BELIEVES.*
*What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[devin553344]

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the one requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? - *BELIEVES.*
*What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Sure but he who believes will be baptized. There's no other way.

 

[Danthemailman]

Sure but he who believes will be baptized. There's no other way.

It logically follows that we get water baptized after we believe, but if you are on your death bed (like the thief on the cross) and are unable to get water baptized, you are still be saved because you BELIEVE (John 3:18; Acts 10:43; 16:31; Romans 1:16 etc..) which is in harmony with Mark 16:16(b)..but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Now anyone who professes to BELIEVE yet refuses to get water baptized is of questionable sincerity. It's unthinkable that anyone would truly believes would refuse to be water baptized. Notice, however, those who Jesus said would be condemned: "whoever does not believe." No mention was made of not being water baptized. The emphasis in regards to condemnation is on the lack of belief and not on the lack of water baptism.

Sadly, there have been many people in various false religions who have been water baptized, yet don't truly believe. Such people may believe in the existence of Jesus and in certain historical facts about Jesus, including that His death, burial and resurrection "happened," yet they are not trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16) but instead are trusting in works for salvation.

 

[Kaon]

This is not true. I explained that water Baptism is required in message #32.

Show me one place where the Most High God, or the Word of God Himself say that baptism with water - unlike being born from a woman's bag of waters (i.e. the medical way). I am not being argumentative, but it would be good to find this and determine it through Law - and the only One(s) who can comment on the existence and relevance of Law is [the Word of] God Himself.


We should be careful of dogma; suggesting one needs to be baptized to be saved when the lot of the OT patriarchs and heroes, and someone literally next to the Son of Man on His dying day did not get baptized (and are saved) produces a problem in and of itself.