Baptism or Dedication?

[GodsGrace101]

Does the Nazarene church baptize babies now or do they still dedicate them to our Lord?

If they are baptized, what does this mean exactly?

When I belonged to the Nazarene church (which is not available to me anymore)
babies were dedicated.

Thanks.

 

[tampasteve]

Does the Nazarene church baptize babies now or do they still dedicate them to our Lord?

If they are baptized, what does this mean exactly?

When I belonged to the Nazarene church (which is not available to me anymore)
babies were dedicated.

Thanks.

I believe it is up to the congregation. From their main website:
"Nazarenes also understand baptism to be a symbol of the new relationship God establishes with His people. Because of this, some Nazarenes choose to have their young children baptized as a symbol of their intention to raise their children in God's Church and their hope to see that their children choose God's ways when they are older."
Questions | Church of the Nazarene

 

[Kevin Snow]

Baptism is the first step of obedience that a person takes in walking with Jesus Christ. It is a sign to all believers that this person will walk in obedience. A baby does not have the ability to know right from wrong and can't possibly make the decision to walk in obedience. It requires this understanding of the person to be baptized, no matter how old you are.

 

[Albion]

All very worthwhile information for us onlookers.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I believe it is up to the congregation. From their main website:
"Nazarenes also understand baptism to be a symbol of the new relationship God establishes with His people. Because of this, some Nazarenes choose to have their young children baptized as a symbol of their intention to raise their children in God's Church and their hope to see that their children choose God's ways when they are older."
Questions | Church of the Nazarene

Thanks T

I guess that would be like preparing the baby like John the Baptist prepared the way for Jesus. The baby is getting prepared for his new life.

I don't know. I kind of liked the dedication...

 

[GodsGrace101]

I also found this on a site. I was hoping to hear from a fellow Nazarene.

"We, as the COTN, do practice infant baptism. My son was baptized as a baby and the minister said something along the lines of, "Do you, as his parents, promise to raise him in the community, so he will learn he is a part of this community through baptism now?”
For the beauty of infant baptism- is it reminds us none of us KNOW enough to be baptized. My little boy did not know enough as a squirming little baby, I did not know enough as a bratty 13 year old, and the ancient old man does not even know enough. It is GOD who makes the covenant with us—drawing us towards the beauty of who we were called to be. As the water is on us, we die to ourselves—with Christ—and when the water is washed away—we rise again with Christ to new life. It is not so much about our level of knowledge as we enter into this community through this sacrament. It is about God.
Since my son was baptized as a little baby and there is no way he can remember it, we celebrate his baptism birthday every year- to remind him he is a part of the community. I usually give him a special gift and have a special dinner- so that as he grows up he will remember his baptism and that he is special. It was the day he entered into the community of faith. He is a part of us- and we are raising him together- to help him learn who he was created to be.

source. REDEMPTION IS CALLING-- by Christy Gunter: Nazarenes and Infant Baptism

 

[tampasteve]

Thanks T

I guess that would be like preparing the baby like John the Baptist prepared the way for Jesus. The baby is getting prepared for his new life.

I don't know. I kind of liked the dedication...

I personally do not have a problem with dedications, other than I like the historic baptism followed by confirmation when older. It is more or less the same meaning outwardly, but theologically for different purposes. I just do not see the theological reason for dedication, but I can understand the community reasons.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I personally do not have a problem with dedications, other than I like the historic baptism followed by confirmation when older. It is more or less the same meaning outwardly, but theologically for different purposes. I just do not see the theological reason for dedication, but I can understand the community reasons.

Baptism came about because of Augustine.
He found the problem of original sin in scripture and decided babies should be baptized so that they shouldn't die in sin and not go with God. He was Catholic.

Then other churches began to understand baptism in a different ways because it's unheard of that God would send babies to hell. Even the Catholic church no longer believes this.

So Dedication seemed nice -- you give back to God what God gave to you...your baby. He is in God's hands as we all are.
It was presenting the baby to God in His service and to be raised in our faith.

Baptism is more serious to me and I don't really understand how a baby could be baptized although I do know Catholic doctrine (which is why I WISH I could be allowed on the OBOB forum...) and understand why they do this.

I'm not familiar with Lutheran doctrine.

 

[tampasteve]

Baptism came about because of Augustine.
He found the problem of original sin in scripture and decided babies should be baptized so that they shouldn't die in sin and not go with God. He was Catholic.

Then other churches began to understand baptism in a different ways because it's unheard of that God would send babies to hell. Even the Catholic church no longer believes this.

That is not really accurate as we can trace infant baptism being debated to Tertulian around the late 100s. When St. Augustine was in the late 300's the matter was decided in favor of infant baptism. The NT and Didache are not clear on the practice, hence the difference in opinions and reasons to baptize as infants or wait. The NT only mentions "households" or individuals being baptized, which historically we assume would have included babies. This along with the practice of families with babies converting to Judaism and everyone needing to be immersed in the Mikvah leads many to believe in infant baptism. Basically it was debated very quickly after the Apostles were gone as we have no explicit directive handed down. All that said, I believe there is no clear answer from scripture or Tradition, so if one wants to wait that is fine and there are solid reasons.

Happy to discuss this further, but probably in another thread

So Dedication seemed nice -- you give back to God what God gave to you...your baby. He is in God's hands as we all are.
It was presenting the baby to God in His service and to be raised in our faith.

Baptism is more serious to me and I don't really understand how a baby could be baptized although I do know Catholic doctrine (which is why I WISH I could be allowed on the OBOB forum...) and understand why they do this.

I'm not familiar with Lutheran doctrine.

That does sound nice, I like bringing the baby into the community of Christians and to God.

In the Lutheran Church (as well as others) the liturgy with Baptism is similar. The baby is baptized and then introduced to the community, who promises to assist in raising the child in the faith. Then around 12-15 years old the child makes "Confirmation" where he or she confirms their belief in the faith, God, etc. in front of the community; this would be similar to the Bar Mitzvah in Judaism, so again there are ancient traditions tied to the practice. At this point they are a full member of the community and church. Baptism is a means of grace and remission of sins provided by Christ's sacrifice.

 

[GodsGrace101]

That is not really accurate as we can trace infant baptism being debated to Tertulian around the late 100s. When St. Augustine was in the late 300's the matter was decided in favor of infant baptism. The NT and Didache are not clear on the practice, hence the difference in opinions and reasons to baptize as infants or wait. The NT only mentions "households" or individuals being baptized, which historically we assume would have included babies. This along with the practice of families with babies converting to Judaism and everyone needing to be immersed in the Mikvah leads many to believe in infant baptism. Basically it was debated very quickly after the Apostles were gone as we have no explicit directive handed down. All that said, I believe there is no clear answer from scripture or Tradition, so if one wants to wait that is fine and there are solid reasons.

Happy to discuss this further, but probably in another thread


That does sound nice, I like bringing the baby into the community of Christians and to God.

In the Lutheran Church (as well as others) the liturgy with Baptism is similar. The baby is baptized and then introduced to the community, who promises to assist in raising the child in the faith. Then around 12-15 years old the child makes "Confirmation" where he or she confirms their belief in the faith, God, etc. in front of the community; this would be similar to the Bar Mitzvah in Judaism, so again there are ancient traditions tied to the practice. At this point they are a full member of the community and church. Baptism is a means of grace and remission of sins provided by Christ's sacrifice.

You're right about the idea of baby baptisms being around before Augustine.

I believe I'm going to start a thread on the early church fathers. It's an interesting topic. Wonder where to post the thread?

Lutheran baptism is much like Catholic baptism.
Thanks for all the info.

I wish some Nazarenes had posted. I live in Italy now and really miss the fellowship...

Thanks for all the info!

 

[tampasteve]

You're right about the idea of baby baptisms being around before Augustine.

I believe I'm going to start a thread on the early church fathers. It's an interesting topic. Wonder where to post the thread?

Sounds good! Depending on how you want the conversation to go it could go in:
General Theology
Christian History
Christian Scriptures
Denomination Specific Theology

Obviously the more general forum the more the conversation will develop into a contentious and dabate oriented discussion rather than simple history or theology of different ways of expressing the faith.

Lutheran baptism is much like Catholic baptism.
Thanks for all the info.

It is very much the same outwardly, the Lutheran Mass/Divine Service is very similar to the Roman Mass overall.

I wish some Nazarenes had posted. I live in Italy now and really miss the fellowship...

Thanks for all the info!

Yeah, there are not a ton of Nazarenes on the forum, more Methodists to be sure.

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

Baptism came about because of Augustine.
He found the problem of original sin in scripture and decided babies should be baptized so that they shouldn't die in sin and not go with God. He was Catholic.

Then other churches began to understand baptism in a different ways because it's unheard of that God would send babies to hell. Even the Catholic church no longer believes this.

So Dedication seemed nice -- you give back to God what God gave to you...your baby. He is in God's hands as we all are.
It was presenting the baby to God in His service and to be raised in our faith.

Baptism is more serious to me and I don't really understand how a baby could be baptized although I do know Catholic doctrine (which is why I WISH I could be allowed on the OBOB forum...) and understand why they do this.

I'm not familiar with Lutheran doctrine.

If you want to know more about the RC teachings it is easier to Google it and get the official teaching

 

[GodsGrace101]

If you want to know more about the RC teachings it is easier to Google it and get the official teaching

LOL
I know Catholic theology and doctrine!

But thanks,,, I really appreciate the thought.

 

[bekkilyn]

Hah, yes, be careful where you post your thread when including infant baptism. A few months ago, I got dragged into a thread arging about infant baptism and some people are adamant that their belief is the only true belief!

 

[GodsGrace101]

Hah, yes, be careful where you post your thread when including infant baptism. A few months ago, I got dragged into a thread arging about infant baptism and some people are adamant that their belief is the only true belief!

Everybody thinks they're right.
Regarding baptism, there is leeway.
God accepts all worship and I believe baptism is also a form of worship and show of respect and adoration.

Thanks for the tip!

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

Hah, yes, be careful where you post your thread when including infant baptism. A few months ago, I got dragged into a thread arging about infant baptism and some people are adamant that their belief is the only true belief!

What is the purpose of infant baptism? Where in the Bible is it taught

 

[tampasteve]

Hah, yes, be careful where you post your thread when including infant baptism. A few months ago, I got dragged into a thread arging about infant baptism and some people are adamant that their belief is the only true belief!

On CF? I have not encountered people like that





JK, obviously, I am certain that I have fallen into the category of "have to be right" at times as well.

 

[tampasteve]

MOD HAT ON

Just a reminder for the thread and people posting in it, myself included.

From this forum's SOP:

• All posts within this faith community must adhere to the site wide rules found here (Community Rules). In addition, if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach against it's theology. You may post in fellowship. Active promotion of views contrary to the established teachings of this group will be considered off topic.
  
  
• Our Sacraments include baptism and communion. All of our churches perform "believer's" baptisms, some also Baptize infants as a means of grace.
  

MOD HAT OFF

 

[GodsGrace101]

What is the purpose of infant baptism? Where in the Bible is it taught

The Early Church Fathers spoke about infant baptism but never made a doctrine out of it.
The bible speaks of entire households being baptized but we can't know for sure if that included children since it wasn't mentioned.
They DID believe in the baptism of Jesus and not that of John.
John's baptism was for the forgiveness of sin and to prepare the Jews for Jesus. Paul did speak about those that asked "in whose name are you baptized?"
Acts 19:3

Baptism in Jesus' name is a baptism of power.
Acts 1:8
Acts 2:4

About the year 400 AD a catholic theologian, one of the brightest minds of Christianity but, I must say, I don't really care for him, wrote on original sin and it was accepted by the church. Original sin states that we are imputed the sin of Adam, not only suffer the effects of it.

So, since sin cannot enter into heaven, Revelation 21:27 for instance, babies had to be baptized immediatly in case they died and should go to hell. There is no such concept of Limbo in the Catholic church. This was invented by laymen and left alone by the church because some could not fathom babies going to hell.

In fact, the catholic church no longer believes this and declares that we must trust in the mercy of God. I can give you the paragraph of the CCC if you wish.

So, that's the story.

 

[Maid Marie]

The Manual for the Church of the Nazarene allows for both infant baptism and infant dedication. It is up to the parents which will occur.

I was baptized when I was a year old and consider it one of the best things that my parents did. I also, thankfully, never was rebaptized. God's grace given to me in my baptism at age one was enough. I don't need to be rebaptized.