Baltimore Residents Blame Murder Rate on Lower Police Presence

[Liza B.]

It was certainly implied when you said:

We are talking about a notoriously corrupt and crooked police force here... So what else is someone supposed to take from that?

That, or you're one of those conservatives who likes to play the "imply then deny" game that seems to be real popular on your side.

Words have meaning. They really do. Big, fat, and powerful does not mean corrupt. That is also true. If you don't believe that, than I don't know why you're a liberal who wants a big, fat, and powerful Central Gov't since it must therefore be corrupt.

 

[Liza B.]

I don’t get it?

Yes American liberals changed their name to "Progressives" because liberal took on a bad connotation.

 

[Larniavc]

Yes American liberals changed their name to "Progressives" because liberal took on a bad connotation.

So where does the left fit in to it?

 

[Liza B.]

So where does the left fit in to it?

In America the Left is considered a faction of liberalism. The term actually got its start in the French Revolution.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Many of these cities that have been run by the Democrats for so many years probably are looking for a new approach?

As Trump mentioned when he was running what have you got to lose?

M-Bob


Urban America should give up on the Democrats

Oh, some opinions from a retired money manager who likes to cherry-pick his data and use Forbes clickbait listicles as evidence. What the author failed to mention is that that Forbes list only sampled the 200 largest cities in the country - if urban areas tend to skew Democrat, then they're obviously going to be over-represented in any list of cities. The list also factors things like weather and home prices, which don't have much of anything to do with political parties.

Detroit Tops 2013 List Of America's Most Miserable Cities

The author also conveniently ignores the track record of Republicans in their own poor, crime-ridden areas (e.g. the deep south). Which stands a better chance of turning around - bad neighborhoods in Chicago or bad areas of Alabama?

They signed up to serve, sure. They didn't sign up to be sued and jailed and doxxed and humiliated.

Anybody who commits a crime signs up to be sued and jailed.

 

[FenderTL5]

Agreed.

There are a few very, very bad police officers and more mediocre ones. And good ones, and great ones. Just like in every profession...

and my point is:
How do we know?

 

[Belk]

Baltimore is seeing record-high murder rates, and many residents see lax police presence as a cause. The police simply do not want to make their presence known in the neighborhoods as they once did.

Who's surprised? In a city where you are called up for murder, sued, blamed and then rioted against, would you be quick to pursue every crime on the street? Or would you tend to cool your heels more often than not?

Seriously: who did not see this coming?



Baltimore Residents Blame Record-High Murder Rate On Lower Police Presence

Is there any evidence that their belief is correct?

 

[GoldenBoy89]

Words have meaning. They really do. Big, fat, and powerful does not mean corrupt.

And here I thought it was a common Christian belief that humans are inherently flawed and therefore prone to corruption.

But that's besides the bigger point that context also helps with understanding. Like the context that this story is concerning a famously corrupt police department.

That is also true. If you don't believe that, than I don't know why you're a liberal who wants a big, fat, and powerful Central Gov't since it must therefore be corrupt.

Maybe you can stop imagining what I believe and just ask me instead of assuming?

Even if that was a liberal belief (hint: it's not), why would you automatically assume that was my belief? Outside of a prejudice assumption, where would you even get that idea?

 

[Liza B.]

And here I thought it was a common Christian belief that humans are inherently flawed and therefore prone to corruption.

But that's besides the bigger point that context also helps with understanding. Like the context that this story is concerning a famously corrupt police department.


Maybe you can stop imagining what I believe and just ask me instead of assuming?

Even if that was a liberal belief (hint: it's not), why would you automatically assume that was my belief? Outside of a prejudice assumption, where would you even get that idea?

You're a Democrat. It says so on your personal information. This comes from the Democrat Party Platform.

Strengthening Management of Federal Government
Democrats understand responsible fiscal stewardship is key to American democracy and to the country’s long-term economic prosperity. We believe that by making those at the top and the largest corporations pay their fair share we can pay for ambitious progressive investments that create good-paying jobs and offer security to working families without adding to the debt. This stands in contrast to Donald Trump, whose plans could add more than $30 trillion to the debt and who casually suggests defaulting on America’s debt, ending more than 200 years in which the full faith and credit of the United States has been sacrosanct.

We will also ensure that new spending and tax cuts are offset so that they do not add to the nation’s debt over time. We will tackle waste, fraud, and abuse to make sure government dollars are spent wisely and efficiently. Democrats believe that we should not be contracting, outsourcing, or privatizing work that is inherently governmental in nature, including postal services, school services, and state and local government services. We are committed to a strong, effective, accountable civil service, delivering the quality public services Americans have every right to expect.

Democrats believe that, in general, the most effective way to identify problems facing our country and develop good solutions is by enacting evidence-based public policy. We recognize the value of data in allowing us to count and carefully consider the needs of different communities. That is why we will preserve and enhance the integrity and accuracy of the census and the American Community Survey (ACS). We will equip the Census Bureau with the resources needed to prepare for and conduct a cost effective, complete and accurate census, as well as improve counting segments of the population that are historically and persistently undercounted, specifically communities of color, immigrants, LGBT people, young children, those with disabilities, and rural and low-income populations. We will also maintain the legal requirement for the public to participate and be counted.

Democrats.org

 

[Liza B.]

and my point is:
How do we know?

View attachment 217530

Statistics. Not manipulated Norman Rockwell paintings.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

You're a Democrat. It says so on your personal information. This comes from the Democrat Party Platform.

My views aren't necessarily informed by what the Democratic Party platform says. YMMV but, I have a mind of my own and do try to use it as much as I can.

Plus, you said liberal, now you've changed it to Democrat. Those two are not synonymous.

Democrats believe that, in general, the most effective way to identify problems facing our country and develop good solutions is by enacting evidence-based public policy.

I'd love to know what personal problem you or conservatives could possibly have with evidence-based public policy. Would you prefer policy based on faith? Gut instincts?

Would you trust a doctor who didn't use facts to inform his opinion?

 

[GoldenBoy89]

Yes American liberals changed their name to "Progressives" because liberal took on a bad connotation.

Lol. With whom does 'liberal' carry a bad connotation?

I mean, I can certainly imagine the type of person but I'm left wondering why I should even care what they think.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

This is an entirely nonsensical premise that's bordering on reductio ad absurdum.

This idea that "because you complained about the police brutality issue, that means that you didn't want a police force at all, this is what you asked for!" is a load of unproductive drivel.

...what they asked for, is to have a police force, but one that's held to specific ethical standards and a code of conduct with respect to usage of force.

That'd be like if you had a city where members of the fire department were stealing from houses they were in, and when people complained about that and demanded accountability, the "Pro firefighter no matter what"-type folks (or, the ones that simply had an ax to grind with the group that was raising awareness for the issue, so felt the need to oppose them on everything) tried to throw it in their faces when there was a fire, by saying "see, you complained about firefighters so much, this is what you asked for!"...or tried to rationalize it by saying "it's a rare occurrence"


This is what happens when people buy the bogus assertion that "demanding police accountability" is the same thing as "being anti-cop".

It's basically operating on the premise that if you want to have a specific institution as part of a society, then you have to put up with any and all negative behavior and allow people in that profession to get away with anything they want, otherwise, that means you really don't want that institution.

Perhaps that's because so many on the far-right possess the "throw the baby out with the bathwater" mentality with respect to so many different public institutions and programs, that they project that mentality onto their political opponents.

 

[Liza B.]

My views aren't necessarily informed by what the Democratic Party platform says. YMMV but, I have a mind of my own and do try to use it as much as I can.

Plus, you said liberal, now you've changed it to Democrat. Those two are not synonymous.

I'd love to know what personal problem you or conservatives could possibly have with evidence-based public policy. Would you prefer policy based on faith? Gut instincts?

Would you trust a doctor who didn't use facts to inform his opinion?

Wow. First.

It is widely understood that Democrats historically and right straight through to the present prefer a strong federal gov't while conservatives prefer gov't that is local and limited. That's 7th grade civics.

Second, you are missing the point of "Public policy" entirely. You won't hear conservatives trumpeting "public policy" at all, or very little. We say, get the blasted "public policy" OUT OF THE WAY. It ruins pretty much everything it touches!

 

[Liza B.]

This is an entirely nonsensical premise that's bordering on reductio ad absurdum.

This idea that "because you complained about the police brutality issue, that means that you didn't want a police force at all, this is what you asked for!" is a load of unproductive drivel.

...what they asked for, is to have a police force, but one that's held to specific ethical standards and a code of conduct with respect to usage of force.

That'd be like if you had a city where members of the fire department were stealing from houses they were in, and when people complained about that and demanded accountability, the "Pro firefighter no matter what"-type folks (or, the ones that simply had an ax to grind with the group that was raising awareness for the issue, so felt the need to oppose them on everything) tried to throw it in their faces when there was a fire, by saying "see, you complained about firefighters so much, this is what you asked for!"...or tried to rationalize it by saying "it's a rare occurrence"


This is what happens when people buy the bogus assertion that "demanding police accountability" is the same thing as "being anti-cop".

It's basically operating on the premise that if you want to have a specific institution as part of a society, then you have to put up with any and all negative behavior and allow people in that profession to get away with anything they want, otherwise, that means you really don't want that institution.

Perhaps that's because so many on the far-right possess the "throw the baby out with the bathwater" mentality with respect to so many different public institutions and programs, that they project that mentality onto their political opponents.

Wrong.

They came at their police force irrationally, with accusations of "Black Lives Matter" and other tirades. Did you watch the footage?

BTW, I'm not arguing with strawman.

 

[Nithavela]

Wrong.

They came at their police force irrationally, with accusations of "Black Lives Matter" and other tirades. Did you watch the footage?

BTW, I'm not arguing with strawman.

If their only crime were "tirades", I think the police is overreacting.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

They came at their police force irrationally, with accusations of "Black Lives Matter" and other tirades.

So?


Also, I'm not finding anything accusatory in the simple statement "black lives matter". Perhaps you're reading more into it than you should.

To me the phrase has always meant exactly what it says. That black lives matter, and I agree. They do.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

If their only crime were "tirades", I think the police is overreacting.

I suppose a passive aggressive police force is a slight improvement over a just plain old aggressive police force.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Wow. First.

It is widely understood that Democrats historically and right straight through to the present prefer a strong federal gov't while conservatives prefer gov't that is local and limited. That's 7th grade civics.

What does the federal government have to do with policing in Baltimore?

Second, you are missing the point of "Public policy" entirely. You won't hear conservatives trumpeting "public policy" at all, or very little. We say, get the blasted "public policy" OUT OF THE WAY. It ruins pretty much everything it touches!

huh?

The topic of discussion here is policing in Baltimore. In the context of this discussion, "public" means of or relating to the government. Police are an arm of the government. You can't have a police department without public policy - the very existence of the department is the manifestation of some kind of policy.

The absence of "public policy" would be anarchy. Is that what you're proposing?

Wrong.

They came at their police force irrationally, with accusations of "Black Lives Matter" and other tirades. Did you watch the footage?

I live in Baltimore. My wife and I have worked with the department on community relations projects and commanders have expressed to us (along with other community leaders & advocates) that the problems in the department are very real and the complaints warranted.

BTW, I'm not arguing with strawman.

No, you're just constructing them.

 

[Liza B.]

What does the federal government have to do with policing in Baltimore?



huh?

The topic of discussion here is policing in Baltimore. In the context of this discussion, "public" means of or relating to the government. Police are an arm of the government. You can't have a police department without public policy - the very existence of the department is the manifestation of some kind of policy.

The absence of "public policy" would be anarchy. Is that what you're proposing?



I live in Baltimore. My wife and I have worked with the department on community relations projects and commanders have expressed to us (along with other community leaders & advocates) that the problems in the department are very real and the complaints warranted.



No, you're just constructing them.

Okay, first. When you butt in on a conversation between myself and another poster, try to pick up the context of the conversation or kindly just don't bother. Twisting it all out of context is worse than useless, don't you agree?

Secondly, if the police dept in Baltimore needs a tune up or even an overhaul, probably the way to get that fixed is not by sending a bulldog of a prosecutor to accuse officers of actual murder, and then have that bogus trumped-up charged dismissed out of hand because it was, yeah, trumped-up. And accompanied by riots, fires, looting, and etc. I'm not saying the Baltimore police dept is a shining city on a hill of police depts and I never did say that. I said the way to correct the problem is NOT trumped up charges, riots, looting, and etc. Because when that happens, as this Baltimore pastor rightly cites, the police just stop policing. As we see.

Now, I'm going to guess that you'll put more incorrect words in my mouth. But I'm telling you, if you do, I will put you on ignore. I will not make time to respond to strawmen.