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Balance between Messianic Judaism?

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by Messianic Jewboy, Feb 18, 2014.

  1. mishkan

    mishkan There's room for YOU in the Mishkan! Supporter

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    Marc,

    Outstanding. I appreciate the specific quotes from the article, and your narrowing of the topic a bit. Todah.

    So, if I am following you correctly now, I believe I was perfectly ontrack with my earlier comments. Almost all Messianics, Jew and Gentile, entered the Messianic Movement via a church venue. In those venues, we were taught basic fundamental beliefs that largely came from evangelical Christian theology. The first generation of leaders in MJ all started there, and passed most of it on to their students. That's the way things were, and we were all happy with the situation.

    As such, Jewish accusations that, "MJ is little more than Christianity with some Yiddish words thrown in for flavor", are largely accurate in their representation.

    But I have pursued a course of going back to the Bible with a historical perspective (re-)building my views from the Torah, the Prophets, and the rabbinic discussion. Only after these are firm do I then seek the adaptations, applications, and commentaries on the earlier texts that were developed in the first century Messianic Writings.

    I believe my result to be a more faithful representation of "Messianic Judaism", rather than simply a veneer of Yiddishkeit slapped over the Christian theology that has grown up outside of any Jewish influence over the past 2,000 years. I don't have to wrestle with post-first century idealogy and antagonisms. I can let all the texts say what they say, without needing to resort to contorted renderings. And best of all, I don't have to defend ideas that are indefensible and unprovable. I don't have to sensationalize anything, or talk about "kosher pigs". Most of all, I can drop the privatized religion, and talk honestly about Israel as my "community of reference".

    While most in the MJ world do still regard themselves as evangelicals, I do not. Which is not to say I think they are bad people, but I do believe the theology held by 99% of Christians is fundamentally flawed, designed from the ground up with the intention of breaking ties with Israel and Israeli institutions like the priesthood, Temple, and even any real reverence for the office of the Israeli king, per sé.

    I believe that, as long as Messianics identify as part of the Christian Evangelical community, they will forever harbor the schizophrenic angst this entails. The current topic du jour of "bi-polar ecclesiology" is a direct result of this angst. Having their theology firmly grounded in Christendom, while wanting to maintain the appearance of an authentically Jewish religious expression, the current Messianic leadership find themselves forced to exclude Gentiles from their communities. This is the act of someone who is conflicted and lacking confidence in his own Jewish identity. They think that bloodline determines "authenticity", when Scripture repeatedly denies that option.

    I stated before that I have all the patience in the world for anyone, Jew or Gentile, who started in the Church and comes to me seeking help in developing a mature Messianic Perspective. (It did hurt me that you so badly manipulated my words, there.) I do not hate or despise anyone, regardless of origins or bloodline. But I do insist that any significant study of Christian theology is inherently a study in segregation from all semblance of Jewish mindset and practice. The two are simply antithetical, and cannot be reconciled, in my opinion.

    The article writer's own mindset is clearly positioned in the evangelical world. Make no mistake about it--he is not neutral in his approach. And he touches on a reality that many do not wish to accept--that the Union and the Alliance are both far more concerned with "culturally Jewish identity markers" than they are with identifying and implementing an authentic form of first century Messianic belief in the Jewish Messiah. Such a community would:

    1) welcome both Jews and Gentiles into a common community, where
    2) leaders would call out one another for the sins of hypocrisy and bigotry towards the Gentile membership, and
    3) new disciples, whether Jewish or Gentile, would be trained to identify with Israel in all significant ways--political, cultural, historical, and geographical.

    The theology and practice of an authentic Messianic Jewish community would reflect the mindset, and not just the bloodline, of first century Judaism, including emphasis on the "Son of David" as the dynastic heir of Israel's first King, who will restore Israel and the Israeli institutional forms mentioned above. But Evangelical theology will not allow us to focus on Jewish life-cycle events, Jewish institutions, and Jewish concerns.

    When I was a young Messianic, I read an article entitled, "Is It Good for the Jews?" As you can probably guess from the title, this is a driving question in Jewish concerns. Evangelicals will focus on this from only one angle--"Do you believe in Jesus? Then you're good." But an actual Jewish consideration of this topic will be much more nuanced, leading to a discussion that will result in a bonding with the other person. Until we can not only explain why we think, "Jesus is good for the Jews", but also live in a manner that reflects unity with Israel in all aspects, then we will constantly face the wall of separation that has been erected by both Judaism and Christianity for the past two millennia.

    That's just the beginning of my thoughts on the subject. I've given this topic a great deal of attention over the past three decades, and the time has been very productive... in my (sometimes) humble opinion. :)
     
  2. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    As long as Yeshua is the focus - as you noted earlier - I think you're doing the best thing that can be done. As I've been told by several Messianic Jews, the most Jewish thing a Jew could do is to believe in Yeshua and that choice will always carry consequences. For Jews trusting in Yeshua, wherever they are at, it will never be an issue whether or not other non-believing Jews approve of them in their focus since the Apostles themselves and Yeshua were not approved of when Jewish non-believers persecuted the Followers of the Way/Nazarene Sect that arose in competition alongside the differing Jewish Camps (i.e. Pharisees, Sadduecees, Herodians, etc.) - the history of the Jewish believers from Acts 3-4 or Acts 5-7 and Acts 24 is noteworthy .....

    And I've seen a lot of Jewish believers note how they set themselves up for failure when going into things assumimng they had to have the approval of the synagogues/Judaism in order to be valid - of course they thanked God for the things they learned growing up in Judaism, just as a believer from a Muslim Background thanked God for the truths he had learned of during his time in the Mosque....seeing partial truth revealed and knowing how God was present throughout the learning process. But when they came to trust in Yeshua, they kept going and didn't think others saying "You're not legitimate!!!!" stop them - or paid heed to others saying "If you were really Jewish, you'd come to Synagogue!!!"..


    As it is, the synagogue system itself was not always present in the history of Israel and was an innovation developed - something many non believing Jews have pointed out when they felt that much of modern rabbinical Judaism exalts one era of Jewish practice and forgets that others Jews have more than enough reason to not stop there with how they see Jewish culture (more in #4 /#21 , #78 ). But even if going back to synagogue and still appreciating things, I do think it may be a bit of an illusionary battle to say "If I can get the approval of the synagogue, they'll finally listen to me!!" - the authority of Rabbinic Judaism was never something that the Body of Believers was meant to seek after for appeasment since the goals are radically different......and what causes the Jewish people to come to Messiah is the Power/Work of the Holy Spirit and seeing how they were meant to be a part of it.

    There is the dynamic always present of remembering where Christ said plainly that "No student is above his master...if they hated me, they will hate you also" (John 16)

    Because of the Gospel itself that He preached, there will be division even within the family or community (Matthew 10), as the Lord preached he it came to living for Him. The type of love He advocated and lifestyle (a challenge to the systems of his day at all levels) AND proclaimation of himself as God in the Flesh was divisive by nature - yet it was necessary as His mindset was the only kind of rebellion that would last beyond all other forms any system could offer - and where all other revolutions failed and ended up promoting more mess/sin, only what Christ offered with Hope in Him was the most successful rebellion since the hope was in eternity.


    "49 “I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until it is completed! 51 Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52 From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”" ( Luke 12:48-55 )

    Matthew 10:32-37
    32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
    34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

    “‘a man against his father,
    a daughter against her mother,
    a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
    36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[c]
    37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.


    If you know you're not always going to be accepted and most likely (as St. Paul experienced) be rejected, it makes things less complicated.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2014
  3. annier

    annier Guest

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    But the discussion concerns these two organizations? One moving towards "Jewish" the other maintaining evangelical aspects. Which organization do you represent here that addresses this?
     
  4. Messianic Jewboy

    Messianic Jewboy Senior Veteran

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    Do we be bold like Paul was? How did he handle this with his brethren?

    Ok so we have the Messianic Jewish synagogue today. And it's obvious from the article that the 2 organizations discussed are taking different approaches.

    The one approach is to be like the traditional Jewish synagogue and to be in line with it. So it looks to me as becoming in line with everything that Judaism subscribes too including Halacha. The only difference is belief in Yeshua. This side and I could be wrong emphasis is becoming more authentic Judaism. It's pretty evident because of the Torah isn't for non Jews debate, the growing minority position on Messianic Jewish conversion etc.

    The other approach can be 'churchy'(I use this term loosely)to some either in a good way or bad way depending how you look at it because the message is salvation. With all Jewish practices and such as secondary.

    One group says that Jews are obligated to Torah. The other says it's a matter of conscience.

    I've been to a local church near me and the message is the same as our Messianic Jewish synagogue. The difference is a Messianic significance on scripture. I go to a conservative synagogue and the message isn't the same as the local church and Messianic synagogue but I see it in a veiled way of that makes sense.

    Point is there isn't a perfect Messianic Judaism. The perfect for me would be the centrality of Yeshua's atoning sacrifice, the centrality of the crucified and risen Messiah where Jew and Gentile are one in the olive tree and have Israel centric theology AND at the same time be traditional as possible.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2014
  5. MWood

    MWood Newbie

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  6. Avodat

    Avodat Contending for Biblical truth

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  7. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    What you say is definitely note worthy when it comes to the identity crisis and trying to have that be the focus - you're not saved by your ethnic background nor does it make you better than anyone else in need of salvation. What matters is Christ - whether you're saved in Him - and although one can appreciate their background heritage, it is not to be what they push forth in all settings since the Body is made of many people and Christ unites them all together..

    From ONE Man he made the nations ( Acts 17:26 ) - and if we're attached to anything else but the Messiah, we have to wonder if we really know him.
     
  8. Avodat

    Avodat Contending for Biblical truth

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    Why not - it happens with people on these fora. It is not an oxymoron to have both in one sentence!
     
  9. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    So true...

    And on the "Greek"claims, The exact difference between a Greco-Roman mindset and a Hebrew mindset is key to remember since much of Scripture makes no sense from a Greco-Roman linear point of view, but only from a block logic, circular pattern point of view.

    Many Jewish Rabbi/organizations have made clear how Greek Thought is based more so on a Step model of logic (i.e. "1+1=2") where there's a great degree of forumla while the Hebraic is very much with similar dynamics, except that on many things there's a BLOCK Model of logic where things do not have to be in sequence or formulaic. Thoughts can parralel without necessarily having to make sense on why they connect---and there can be a great degree of mystery involved where some things are not necessarily certain. And Greek Thought was linear and Hebraic was circular...but even with one being more so linear and the other being circular, it would not be fully accurate to say the Hebraic has absolutes in all things...as in, all things neatly "categorized", "boxed" and in nice rows of thought.

    Not all things Greek are bad, of course. The Jewish brothers/sisters from The Rosh Pina Project did an excellent review of rabbinical Judaism/some of its heroes already advocating some of the same dynamics that Christianity has with the Greek - as seen in It’s All Greek To Me. I thought the review was beyond fascinating since it did a great job of addressing how one considered amongst the greatest of berian Judaism Rabbis, Maimonides, based his whole “negative theology” off Aristotelian ideas, meaning that he defined God by what he is not, as you can’t explain God in positive terms by human philosophy.

    Not many are aware of the Greek (as well as Islamic ) Influences on Maimonides' Philosophy - in fact, many aren't even aware of Greek Philosophies Impact upon Medieval Jewish Thought in general. But it's there and that is significant in light of how many today in the Modern Messianic Jewish movement wish to be against any/all things Greek in preference for rabbinical Judaism even while not knowing where Judaism itself already had that present.

    And of course, he wasn't new in what he did since we already have the ways that Judaism after/during the Maccabean Revolt managed to find ways of utilizing Hellenization to their advantage by making it fit a Judaic perspective) - literally shaping the rest of the culture the Jews lived in.

    The Maccabean fighters, who eventually established the Hasmonean kingdom, were themselves influenced deeply by Hellenism - with later generations finding many positive benefits from it as a result (more shared here /here).

    This dynamic of adaptation - in honor of the very concept of the Lord working in all nations to make people for himself - is also seen in the time of St. Stephen. The Greeks were complaining against the Hebrews because they were being neglected. These were Greek-speaking Jews, not Gentiles - but it appears that the Greek-speaking Jews were considered to be rather Hellenised, inferior, and not as observant as the Hebrew-speaking Jews, so they were neglected and the situation had to be rectified. (Acts 6:1). This is where Stephen was brought in as well as others. When Stephen was called before the High Priest and the council, he gave a defence that was thoroughly Jewish, all about the history of Israel, and then he was stoned. (Acts 7). He did not see the Temple in the same ways as His Jewish brethren - and yet in what he said, he was more faithful to the intent of what the Lord wanted than all the others who glorified the Temple at the expense of progressive development - some of his quotations being speculated to have come out of the Greek version of the Scriptures....and his mindsets being reflective of Jews in the Diaspora who knew how to work within the Greek world - something Jewish Christians in the 1st century knew well when it came to spreading the Gospel.

    And so we see the same settings developed that allowed for other believers to know how to work and operate within a Greco-Roman culture for the sake of outreach. And we have to be faithful to that if we're to honor their work.

    For Israel was a global reality with people from every culture included in the advancement and spreading of who Yeshua was :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2014
  10. MWood

    MWood Newbie

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    In the post that you quoted under my name is not mine. It is Contra's that Gxg quoted that was a part of the Gxg quote that I quoted. The only part of that quote that is mine are the last two sentences of that whole quote.;)
     
  11. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    I think if we were to really be radical as Paul was, then there'd be some things done that many in the Messianic Jewish world today don't seem focused on doing when it comes to outreach.

    We know Jesus and the apostles frequently taught in synagogues (Matt. 4:23; Lk. 4:15; Luke 6:6; Luke 13:10, etc) - but we also know Jesus did use synagogues to teach against Jewish traditions that were inaccurate and he spoke in synagouge on misconceptions about the Law. Specifically, in one of the more notable of these passages the Jews became so angry over what Jesus taught in the Synagogue that they tried to kill Him (Luke 4:16-29). Luke 13:10-17 also records an occasion on which Jesus taught in a synagogue, but people were also upset with Him there. In fact, this passage shows that Jesus debated in the synagogue.

    And because of who Christ was and what He represented, he was often kicked out of synagogues...and the same went for his followers, as synagogue members were excommunicated for believing that Jesus was the Messiah (Jn. 9:22; John 12:42; John 16:2).

    And we see this same dynamic lived out by Paul himself. Paul had a simple strategy. First, he went into the largest city of the region (cf. Acts 16:9, 12), and second, he planted churches in each city (Titus 1:5- “appoint elders in every town”). Once Paul had done that, he could say that he had ‘fully preached’ the gospel in a region and that he had ‘no more work’ to do there (cf. Romans 15:19, 23), meaning Paul had two controlling assumptions: a) that the way to most permanently influence a country was through its chief cities, and b) the way to most permanently influence a city was to plant churches in it.

    One can see that not only did Paul target the largest cities, but he targeted the synagogues within those cities:


    @ Salamis
    - Acts 13:5
    When they arrived at Salamis, they proclaimed the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews. And they had John to assist them

    @ Antioch
    Acts 13:14-16
    but they went on from Perga and came to Antioch in Pisidia. And on the Sabbath day they went into the synagogue and sat down. After the reading from the Law and the Prophets, the rulers of the synagogue sent a message to them, saying, “Brothers, if you have any word of encouragement for the people, say it.” So Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand said: “Men of Israel and you who fear God, listen.


    @ Iconium
    Acts 14:1
    Now at Iconium they entered together into the Jewish synagogue and spoke in such a way that a great number of both Jews and Greeks believed.

    @ Thessalonica
    Acts 17:1-3
    Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.”

    @ Berea
    Acts 17:10
    The brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived they went into the Jewish synagogue.

    @ Athen
    Acts 17:17
    So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the devout persons, and in the marketplace every day with those who happened to be there.


    @ Corinth
    Acts 18:1-4
    After this Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. And he found a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to leave Rome. And he went to see them, and because he was of the same trade he stayed with them and worked, for they were tentmakers by trade. And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and tried to persuade Jews and Greeks.


    @ Ephesus
    Acts 18:19
    And they came to Ephesus, and he left them there, but he himself went into the synagogue and reasoned with the Jews.

    Acts 19:8-10
    And he entered the synagogue and for three months spoke boldly, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God. But when some became stubborn and continued in unbelief, speaking evil of the Way before the congregation, he withdrew from them and took the disciples with him, reasoning daily in the hall of Tyrannus. This continued for two years, so that all the residents of Asia heard the word of the Lord, both Jews and Greeks.


    In some examples, we see how Paul is said to address Jews only (Salamis, Antioch, Thessalonica, Berea, and Ephesus) while other times he address a mixed audience (Jews and Greeks in Iconium and Corinth, Jews and “devout persons” in Athens). Luke states the main action of Paul was to “reason” (explain, prove, and persuade), although at Salamis he “proclaimed” the word of God. But even in predominately Gentile regions, Paul first entered the synagogue. Not only that, but Paul explicitly states that his apostolic mission is to reach the Gentiles with the gospel.

    He went to the synagogues because he was a Jew and he could always be found in synagogue on shabbat. ...and He went to the synagogues because he operated on the principle of going “to the Jew first.” Even though he was the Apostle to the Gentiles, the Jews had priority in every locale.

    Prior to his conversion as a devoted and well-known Pharisee, Paul might have known many leaders in these synagogues and wanted to first testify of the life-transforming gospel of Jesus Christ (since perhaps the synagogues were the places he would have been most familiar with). More can be found in Is the Bible Contradictory Regarding Paul’s “Target Audiences”? and A Comparison of Paul’s Missionary Preaching and Preaching to the Church and Gospel Preaching in Acts - The Preaching of Paul

    But with Paul, it makes sense how he went to synagogues because the prophets said that deliverance would begin with Zion, but he also went because he wanted to recruit the Jews to go to the Gentiles with the message that salvation has come for them as well. He understood what Isaiah noted, whom Paul quotes frequently, as at the end of this passage in Romans 15:8-12 when showing God’s work among Israel and among the other nations as correlated:

    8 For I tell you that Christ became a servant to the circumcised to show God’s truthfulness, in order to confirm the promises given to the patriarchs, 9 and in order that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written,”Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles, and sing to your name.” 10 And again it is said,”Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people.” 11 And again,”Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles, and let all the peoples extol him.” 12 And again Isaiah says,”The root of Jesse will come, even he who arises to rule the Gentiles; in him will the Gentiles hope.”​


    It's interesting to consider the Synagogue Influence on Paul’s Roman Readers when seeing some of the allusions/concepts he spoke on - but because he wanted to tell his people that tHe Messiah had come and been raised from the dead, THE final resurrection, and the Kingdom was at hand, He went to the synagogues ....and he also did so in the hopes of recruiting the Jewish people to go to the nations with the same message with which he had been entrusted.

    But in all realness, how often is that the case today in much of what you see within the Messianic Jewish movement from the 1960s? The focus is - for many - more so about making Messianic Jewish synagogues more so than proclaiming the Gospel in places the Jewish people are.

    Although I've seen/known others who truly are outreach-focused on their people, I've noticed how You didn't really see many willing to go into Jewish Synagogues and preach on Yeshua being Divine, dying for our sins and His kingdom present. Many others claimed they wanted to go in to "reach out to the Jews" but it became more so a matter of being Jewish in traditions rather than preaching the Gospel first/foremost.

    And for many, to actually do as St. Paul did would be considered bothersome by Jewish communities - but that's the example we have of Paul and Yeshua. And as they often were rejected, it seems odd whenever the goal is to make Messianic Synagogues in the hopes of being approved of when the Apostles themselves didn't even have that.

    I can definitely see where you're coming from. I'd personally go with the latter approach you noted - as it concerns keeping the focus on the Gospel itself and other issues being secondary just as it is in Gentile churches when the focus is primarily on the message.

    There's nothing wrong with making Messianic synagogues that are in line more so with much of what's taught in traditional synagouges in Modern Judaism - but if that becomes the dominant focus and Yeshua's Gospel isn't preached directly, then you can get into trouble in the same way others got into trouble preaching to Native Americans with trying to develop much of what they grew up in during the Church Services and yet they placed preaching on Christ (if it was offensive) as secondary.


    Can definitely understand. In many places, where you go, you end up having a message on the Gospel but with the surroundings being more in line with what one grew up with (i.e. processions, readings for the Drasha, prayers, etc.) - whereas in another the message is the same without the other traditional aspects. And in some places, it's the same dynamics but in different format and language used.

    This is something I've seen with many Jews who were reached out to by camps in Apostolic Christianity and noted the ways that they saw more things connected with Judaism than what they grew up with in Rabbinical Judaism. Someone like Father Bernstein (one of the founder leaders of Jews for Jesus and a Jew who grew up in Orthodox Judaism) comes to mind when seeing how he saw connection to priesthood, the Temple Worship and Christ in liturgical camps such as Orthodoxy:

    The Jewish Roots of Orthodox Christian Worship - Fr. A.J. Bernstein - YouTube
    Fr James Bernstein on: Processions in Orthodox Worship - YouTube

    Be it in an Orthodox Parish or a modern Messianic Synagogue, I'd say that both are very much Messianic - but as far the aspects of Messiah emphasized, you'll see differently at times. And as far as attending a traditional synagogues, I can definitely see the dynamic of others still appreciating what they grew up with. You don't reject all things you learned growing up in elementary school (from arithmetic to ABCs) simply because of being at more advanced levels - nor do you claim that nothing one learned from an atheist father (from how to drive to valuing being with family) is to be practiced simply because you came to believe in Christ and have completion in who you are. In the same way, Jews don't have to forsake all aspects of their culture or not be able to go back to traditional synagogue to still value the prayers/other traditions they grew with in order to believe in Christ..

    It's similar to what happens for many known as Muslim Background Believers when they go back to Mosque with family and appreciate the services - appreciating the background they came from/the things God showed them in it (even though it was incomplete and partial revelation) and still remembering how Isa is the Messiah. Some who came out of Islam may ask "Why are even appreciating anything you learned from your past? You have Christ now!!!!" - and yet others disagreeing realize that just because certain things were used wrongly doesn't mean you can't appreciate it. .......for many were able to come to trust in the Lord after seeing things in the Quran or their background in various ways the Lord used to help them see how Isa Al Masih was the Messiah - they didn't have to forsake all aspects of who they were in order to serve the Lord.....and just as that has that has occurred for those who are Muslims, the same can occur for Jewish people as well
    :thumbsup:
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2014
  12. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Shoot, there's no perfect Church or Body - and if there were, no one would be allowed:)^_^
     
  13. Yoseft

    Yoseft Veteran

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    I agree 100 per cent.

    We are all human and flawed, no matter how much
    we attempt, to present ourselves as the perfect Torah Observant
    Yeshua Disciple or Congregation.

    We are flesh, and He is Spirit and Perfect.

    I can not wait until I am in that Holy perfect place, run by
    Him, The King, and no longer here to wrestle with
    all of this that is not of HIS Heart, and learn all in His Presence that He Desires.

    Shalom,
    Yosef
     
  14. mishkan

    mishkan There's room for YOU in the Mishkan! Supporter

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    My apologies. I didn't notice all the complexities of the construction. I'll look more closely next time.
     
  15. MWood

    MWood Newbie

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    Apologies accepted.
    I don't understand how my quote of Gxg came out the way it did. Stranger things have happened I'm sure.
     
  16. mercy1061

    mercy1061 Newbie

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    Am I missing something here? I think you are misrepresenting the article, this article equates or parallel circumcision to adult baptism? If circumcision is performed on the 8th day, how can it be compared to adult baptism? Then it mentions rituals done for ENTRANCE into a faith community. Now if circumcision is performed by the parents, then the son is already part of the family.
     
  17. mercy1061

    mercy1061 Newbie

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    The article mention rituals being performed for ENTRANCE into a faith community, these are nothing more than identity markers. How are their views supported by torah?Circumcision is more than a tradition, it is a commandment. I do not think evangelical have foundations in torah.
     
  18. Avodat

    Avodat Contending for Biblical truth

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    I was commenting on the confusion of evangelical and evangelist - not the argument in which the words were being mis-used :)

    The standard attributes to be found in an evangelical are:

    Biblicism, activism, conversionism and crucicentrism

    not one of those attributes is out of line in regard to Messianic believers - Jewish or Gentile.

    Baptism, arguably fulfilling a function similar to circumcision, is NOT a defining characteristic of an evangelical.
     
  19. mercy1061

    mercy1061 Newbie

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    What about circumcision on the 8th day and sabbath keeping, holy days? Evangelicals are protestants? How does evangelical provide balance to mj?
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2014
  20. Avodat

    Avodat Contending for Biblical truth

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    I'm not too sure what you are getting at. Baptism can happen at any stage in someone's life. I would prefer people to use it as a rough equivalent to a bar / bat mitzvah. In days gone by the child would have been presented in Church on the 8th day with Baptism following when the 'child' was old enough to learn the catechism - usually as a teen; Baptism would follow at the Easter Day after successfully learning the catechism.

    Being an evangelical SHOULD mean taking the whole Book seriously (though for many it is just the latter part). They are usually well versed in what the latter part of The Book says as well as the prophecies in the former part. Charismatics are evangelicals plus the gifts of the Holy Spirit being an essential part of Christian life today.

    The above is an incredibly small nutshell view of the subject matter.
     
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