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Balance between Messianic Judaism?

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by Messianic Jewboy, Feb 18, 2014.

  1. Messianic Jewboy

    Messianic Jewboy Senior Veteran

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    Yep what you posted in red.

    According to the article I posted I'm using how they use it....

    "At first glance, relating Messianic Judaism to a broad term like "evangelicalism" may seem to obscure more issues than it clarifies. For our purposes, I will use James Davidson Hunter's definition of evangelicalism, which states that at the doctrinal core, contempo[bless and do not curse]rary evangelicals can be identified by their adherence to the belief that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God (on essential matters of faith and life), the belief in the divinity of Christ, and the insistence on the efficacy of Christ's life, death, and physical resurrection for the salvation of the human soul.3 For Hunter, evangelicals are also generally marked by an individualized and experiential orientation toward spiritual salvation and religiosity, and by the conviction of the necessity of actively attempting to proselytize all nonbelievers to the tenets of the evangelical belief system."

    I want to be clear that I'm not advocating one Messianc Jewish organization over another. My point what you posted in red, that's it's not impossible to have evangelical theology and and have Israel centric theology.

    Some here wouldn't agree.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2014
  2. ContraMundum

    ContraMundum Messianic Jewish Christian Supporter

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    Thank you....much appreciated.

    I really don't think Israel is properly understood. Far too much emphasis is placed on Isreal according to the world. The physical Israel, the physical nation of Isreal, and the physical Jerusalem. While those things are good and necessary, they are not the centre of faith in God. God is building a New Jerusalem- His Kingdom. It's made up of people from all nations. I think the Church is the best representation of that on the planet, because people only enter the Church through the power of His Spirit- you can't get in any other way.

    Now, if God's Spirit is calling people in to that Kingdom, then we have to recognise and respect His work and stop putting so much emphasis on our pet doctrines and whether or not it looks or acts "Jewish" enough for our approval.

    I recognize your concerns over the "Greek" paradigm of the Church, and agree with it to a point, but I also think God has put the Greek into the Church to make her complete. It's a marriage of many nations, not a master/slave relationship of Jews over the Gentiles where the Gentiles are replaced and have their identity rubbed out...and I don't find anywhere in the Bible, Tanakh or NT that says Yeshua died to make everyone Jewish.

    I understand there is error in the church- but let's face it, there's abundant error in the synagogues too. Simply saying that the Church's definitions and understandings of the scriptures are incorrect and that the Jewish ones are correct is really an exercise in being arbitrary. It's the 21stC....and the Holy Spirit has been leading and guiding God's people since the start of the New Covenant. I say we put some trust in Him, despite how it looks to our human reasonings. Let's stop making war against the Church and start promoting peace within her.
     
  3. Avodat

    Avodat Contending for Biblical truth

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    Hunter is a bit long-winded with his definitions, though! :D
     
  4. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Can one be evangelical in their spreading of the good news and still have Israel centric theology?
     
  5. ContraMundum

    ContraMundum Messianic Jewish Christian Supporter

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    I think too much of MJism, especially on this forum, is really about identity. In fact, if one's exposure to MJism was contained to this forum, you would think it's an identity religion.

    The identity of a person who is born-anew by the power of the Holy Spirit to faith in the Risen Lord is not their Jewishness or Gentileness, but their identity is in Him.

    I think some people are too attached to their kippahs, or their choir robes, or their icons, or fridge magnets with scriptures and pictures of furry cats or whatever. They seem less attached to their Saviour than to their outward human identity.

    Here's what I do- I wear a kippah on the inside, but I wear a cross on the outside.

    Why? The guy I was born as is dead- crucified on the Cross. He's not important anymore. There is another within me now. I'm not the first guy born Jewish to say that either:

    Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

    So we're Jews. So what? God is within us. We didn't put Him there, nor did we invent Him and thus have ownership of Him and all knowledge of Him. He came to dwell within us when we put our old man on the Cross. I say we need to stop constantly trying to give that old identity too much credit.
     
  6. mishkan

    mishkan There's room for YOU in the Mishkan! Supporter

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    Thank you! The odd use of that term was driving me batty!

    I am well aware that most Messianics would agree with you. But my experience is different. I have reached the point in my studies where I have concluded that most Christian theology is rooted in theosophy, and is fundamentally designed from its core to lionize the Gentile church while demonizing Israel.

    The foundational question that Christian theology must address is, "Who/what/where is Israel?" Covenantalism declares that "WE are Israel, and the ancient Jews get to be part of our lineage." Dispensationalism says, "We are distinct from Israel, but we'll bring them back to suffer the Great Tribulation; we get the eternal blessings and they get the dirt."

    I don't consider either of these approaches acceptable.
     
  7. mishkan

    mishkan There's room for YOU in the Mishkan! Supporter

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    Do you mean "evangelical" (a form of moderate Protestantism), or "evangelistic" (having a zeal to spread the Good News message)?

    I am very evangelistic, but I am not evangelical in outlook.
     
  8. Messianic Jewboy

    Messianic Jewboy Senior Veteran

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    We are talking about....

    This is an MJ that is evangelical talk.

    What you're doing is discussing an organization that is completely evangelical. You haven't addressed if a MJ organization that isn't completely evangelical can be Israel centric theology?
     
  9. Avodat

    Avodat Contending for Biblical truth

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    I was in agreement with view expressed in the bit in red - it now makes sense - not the whole argument that is on the thread!
     
  10. mishkan

    mishkan There's room for YOU in the Mishkan! Supporter

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    Todah. Nice to get a professional opinion.

    You've noticed that, too? ^_^

    I have concluded that part of wisdom is being able to distinguish between the facts and the false disclaimers. That discernment only comes from experience.
     
  11. mishkan

    mishkan There's room for YOU in the Mishkan! Supporter

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    Marc, I am very surprised at your repeated allegations that I don't know what I'm talking about. I've been part of the Messianic Jewish Movement since 1981, and an Elder at a major MJ shul since 1986. There are few who have more experience with the very issues you are addressing.

    You are apparently missing MY point. I'm not addressing ANY organization. I am bringing to the discussion foundational concepts and principles that I find basic to the definitions and terminology being used. Without a good grasp of definitions, you miss half of what is being said.

    You haven't shown me you know what an "evangelical" is, what constitutes "evangelical theology". So, I'm not sure how to address the question.

    In what way do you think the term applies to any Messianic organization? The theology? The practice? What?
     
  12. Avodat

    Avodat Contending for Biblical truth

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    I'm sure your opinion is just as good :thumbsup:
     
  13. Messianic Jewboy

    Messianic Jewboy Senior Veteran

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    This is from the article...

    ""At first glance, relating Messianic Judaism to a broad term like "evangelicalism" may seem to obscure more issues than it clarifies. For our purposes, I will use James Davidson Hunter's definition of evangelicalism, which states that at the doctrinal core, contempo[bless and do not curse]rary evangelicals can be identified by their adherence to the belief that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God (on essential matters of faith and life), the belief in the divinity of Christ, and the insistence on the efficacy of Christ's life, death, and physical resurrection for the salvation of the human soul.3 For Hunter, evangelicals are also generally marked by an individualized and experiential orientation toward spiritual salvation and religiosity, and by the conviction of the necessity of actively attempting to proselytize all nonbelievers to the tenets of the evangelical belief system."

    Then the article proceeds with...

    " Since the Messianic Jewish congregation stands at the center of the Messianic Jewish faith, its practices are an effective gage of each organization's attitudes toward evangelicalism. The rituals of cir[bless and do not curse]cumcision and baptism are especially relevant as each represents the primary means of entering into a faith community, the first tra[bless and do not curse]ditionally for the Jews, the second for Christians. In Messianic Judaism both are practiced, and the rituals create affinity with or distance from one or the other faith community. Bar/Bat Mitzvahs can be seen as parallels to adult baptism or confirmation in that they also function as entrance rituals into the community, in this case when a child of the congregation comes of age. Teenagers are trained in certain beliefs and practices to prepare them for active participation in the congregation, and in the case of Jewish tradi[bless and do not curse]tion, it is at this point that they come to be held accountable to the law, the commandments of God. As Bar/Bat Mitzvah is a post-bibli-cal tradition, it can also be examined as an indicator of the Union and Alliance's approaches toward Jewish tradition as a whole."

    Then the article shows examples of differences in Bar Mitzvah and a Bris. One tying in sort of evangelicalism + tradition into the Bar Mitzvah and Bris and one being more traditionaly Jewish.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2014
  14. mercy1061

    mercy1061 Newbie

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    The article and if you agree with article are confusing terminology. Circumcision is not just a ritual, it is a direct commandment. Baptism or public ceremonial washing may be more of a ritual or tradition. The gentile christians dont really practice any of them in its original form. Thus the hidden or intrinsic meaning has been lost. The gentile christians seek to make void the commandments of G-d. Abraham had a family relationship in his ministry, I would not consider him to be evangelical his thoughts were certainly Israel centric theology. I dont think his focus was on evangelizing he was more focused on reaching the promise with the hope of obtaining citizenship in a holy city. The problem with evangelical is that many gentile protestant denominations have no desire of even visiting Israel, so I do not understand how they share the faith of Abraham?
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2014
  15. Messianic Jewboy

    Messianic Jewboy Senior Veteran

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    The article is about different views between 2 Messianic Jewish organizations.
     
  16. Avodat

    Avodat Contending for Biblical truth

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    Being an evangelical and sharing one's faith are not necessarily the same thing. Many evangelicals do NOT share their faith - it is not a base requirement of being an evangelical.

    People are still confusing evangelical and evangelism. They are not the same. Evangelicals can be evangelists but evangelists need not be evangelical.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2014
  17. mercy1061

    mercy1061 Newbie

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    The reason I have a problem with the article, the gentiles in ancient times were already part of Abraham family or community before they were circumcised. The purpose of circumcision was not to enter Abraham household or community but as a sign of a covenant. This is why Pharisee Shaul says every man should remain in their calling, the gentiles were slaves before circumcision, they kept their legal status after circumcision. Those gentile slaves have a future hope of continued employment in the promise land. My point is simple, circumcision does not make you part of Abraham family, circumcision is a sign of an agreement between parties.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2014
  18. Messianic Jewboy

    Messianic Jewboy Senior Veteran

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    The Bris has to do with Jewish parents circumcising their son on the 8th day. The article isn't referring to non Jews.
     
  19. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    Wouldn't be any need to prove anything seeing that it's basic that Abraham saw the Messiah when he actually ate with the Lord himself in Genesis 18 - the concept being known as Theophany and something I've never been against spoke on before in #74 )
     
  20. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    Indeed..

    Jesus told His fellow Jews that if they knew the Father, they would know Him also, and those who rejected Him rejected the Father as well (see Luke 10:16; John 5:36-47; cf. also 9:39-41). In keeping with this, John wrote that “he who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life,” and that “no one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also” (1 John 5:12; 2:23).

    Paul had “great sorrow and unceasing anguish” in his heart since many of his people were not saved (see Romans 9:2), including those whom he said were “zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge” (Romans 10:2). It was for those very people that he prayed (see Romans 10:1), “Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness” (Romans 10:3).

    According to Paul, despite the religious zeal of the Jewish people, they failed to understand the gift of God’s righteousness and therefore “his heart’s desire and prayer to God for [them was] that they may be saved” (Romans 10:1)..for even Jewish people who are zealous for God (Romans 10:2) and are pursuing a law of righteousness (9:31; 10:3) are in need of salvation through Yeshua.

    And so we have to be very careful when it comes to what occurs within Messianic Judaism and the issue of balance - for in many places, there is indeed Philio-Semitism occuring where others assume any/all Jews will be saved and not cut off from the Lord simply because of how they are descended from Israel - that is a reflection of Universalism for a select group and that will always be an issue.


    I know God hasn't rejected the Jews and anyone saying he has doesn't know the heart of God - but He has not rejected them, because they can join the Church. The point is you CAN read that as the Church being the Israel of God, owing all to the Jews for bringing the Law, Prophets, and the Messiah. But as it concerns the Remnant of Israel that will be saved, tere is only one Israel, and it is God's people. God has not ever dumped anyone. He called certain Gentiles to salvation even before the Messiah came - and this is something numerous Jewish evangelists for the Gospel have said for a long time.

    God has not cast Israel off because he wants them all to be saved, yet he has made plain that those who follow him are truly His Israel..not just those who are Israel in the Flesh. And everything that Paul said later in Romans 11 about all Israel being saved was in a CONTEXT since he wrote LETTERS and not simple paragraphs divorced from one another. Before Romans 11, his pressuposition was the following:
    Romans 9:9

    Israel’s Rejection and God’s Purpose

    6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”[a] 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”[b]
    ...............
    Romans 10:1

    Israel Needs the Gospel

    10 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel[a] is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
    5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.”[b] 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’”[c] (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’”[d] (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”[e] (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
    __________________
     
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