• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Balance between Messianic Judaism?

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by Messianic Jewboy, Feb 18, 2014.

  1. Messianic Jewboy

    Messianic Jewboy Senior Veteran

    +107
    Messianic
    Married
    US-Democrat
    I know there are some here that won't associate with the Church for their reasons. Instead of looking at the bad in the Church, is there any good? If so what are they?

    What about a Church that also supports the redemption of Israel because they know Israel's redemption means life from the dead?
     
  2. CherubRam

    CherubRam Judaic Christian

    +304
    Non-Trinitarian
    Private
    Does the term "Israel" mean nation, or does it mean body of believers?
     
  3. Messianic Jewboy

    Messianic Jewboy Senior Veteran

    +107
    Messianic
    Married
    US-Democrat
    Israel meaning children of Israel. For me with the Church the most important thing if they support the 'doctrine' of Israel's redemption without down playing it. And yes there should be a balance as I don't want Christians to think that's my emphasis although it's on the top of my list.
     
  4. annier

    annier Guest

    +0
    Marc, Should the differences between Mosaic/Levitical Judaism and Rabbinic/Synagogue Judaism even be a factor in considering these things?
     
  5. Messianic Jewboy

    Messianic Jewboy Senior Veteran

    +107
    Messianic
    Married
    US-Democrat
    No Jews are Jews.
     
  6. annier

    annier Guest

    +0
    I was thinking more along the the lines of synagogue is synagogue, not the temple type thinking.
     
  7. Messianic Jewboy

    Messianic Jewboy Senior Veteran

    +107
    Messianic
    Married
    US-Democrat
    Don't know what you're trying to ask I guess.
     
  8. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

    +1,118
    Oriental Orthodox
    Private
    US-Others
    Seems reasonable enough of a stance you're taking, IMHO.
     
  9. mishkan

    mishkan There's room for YOU in the Mishkan! Supporter

    +234
    Non-Trinitarian
    Married
    US-Republican
    I'm sorry, but the more I studied Christian theology of all sorts, the less I find of merit in the arguments. The foundation of all Christian theology is Greek theosophy, with the fundamental point being how a Gentile community can replace Israel in God's plan.

    As for Christians who are pro-Israel... they take that view despite the formal theology, not because of it. My own experience is a fine illustration. I asked questions pastors were uncomfortable answering, and came to recognize the Bible as a text of Israel, by Israel, and for Israel. I started out trying to take Yeshua to Jews, and found myself assimilated into Jewish culture and belief--as defined by first century writings.

    After awhile, I was no longer a pro-Israel Christian... I became a Messianic Gentile. I view this as the standard trajectory depicted in Scripture.
     
  10. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

    +1,118
    Oriental Orthodox
    Private
    US-Others
    I do think that it can be problematic whenever the Church is something others claim they don't want to associate with - for whether people really prefer it or not, when you say "Yes" to Yeshua, one automatically says "Yes" to the Church and becomes a part of it. And thus, people fight against themselves/Christ in trying to claim no connection or allegiance to it.

    The basis of what Messianic Judaism was in the 1st Century is exactly what Christianity in its formation was about. It was never Greek philosophy/mindsets of "Gentiles replace Jews!!" that Christianity was born out of no and there is not a shred of evidence that has ever been placed forth to substantiate the point.

    And I am still surprised every time I've been able to talk to Jews who came to believe in Yeshua and noted how much they took issue with other Gentiles claiming that Israel/the Church are not the same and then assuming Jewish cultural norms require Jews to not see themselves as such.


    And it was not something done (when noting Jews were seperate in practice from Gentiles many times) to say Gentiles were NOT important.

    As Brother Contra said best:

    [/QUOTE][/INDENT]



    The Church of Jesus Christ is not something separate from Israel, but is the true Israel --the true manifestation of the Chosen People (see Gal 6:16, 1 Peter 2:9-10, etc.). It is because of this that the Eastern Church is correct to refer to the saints of the Old Testament as "St. Abraham" and "St. Moses," etc.

    For, we are not a replacement for Israel of old, but an unbroken continuation of Israel under the promised King and Messiah of Israel, and His Church is His Kingdom of Israel, expanded to include all the Gentile peoples of the earth. And so, in Acts of the Apostles, when you have Jewish Christians addressing their fellow Jews who are not yet full Christians, you will see them refer to it as "the Way" -- that is, the true manifestation of Israel -- the "sect" that truly represents Israel, as opposed to the other Jewish sects (the Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots, etc.) who did not recognize the true King of Israel, Who is the only "Way" -- the "Way, the Truth, and the Life."

    Because the Church is remnant Israel, Paul--certainly a member of the Church--could say that since he was a believer in Jesus, he was part of remnant Israel (Romans 11:1-5). Because the Church is remnant Israel, Paul could say that Gentile believers in Jesus have been grafted into remnant Israel (Romans 11:17). Because the Church is remnant Israel, both Paul and Peter could say that Jews who didn't accept Jesus would be cut off from Israel (Romans 11:17; Acts 3:23). Because the Church is remnant Israel, Paul could say that Gentile believers are no longer "excluded from citizenship in Israel" and no longer "foreigners to the covenants of the promise" (Ephesians 2:12). Because the Church is remnant Israel, Paul could say that Gentile believers "are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household" (Ephesians 2:19).


    Christ was present within the early Jewish community (alongside Gentile Churches where the Gospel was contexualized in their frameworks , Romans 16:3-5 ), as it pertains to the ecclesia/local bodies (Acts 8:1-3 , Acts 9:30-32, Acts 15:40-41, Acts 16:4-6, Romans 16:15-17, 1 Corinthians 7:16-18, 1 Corinthians 11:15-17 , 1 Corinthians 14:32-34 , 1 Corinthians 16:18-20, 2 Corinthians 8:17-19 , Galatians 1:1-3, 1 Thessalonians 2:13-15, Revelation 1:3-5 , Revelation 22:15-17, etc ) and the issue of where the Lord proclaimed how He would establish His Church upon the apostles ( Matthew 16:17-19, Matthew 18:16-18 )...


    As said before, Messianic Judaism doesn't equate to not being Christian in thinking (false scenario) at any point - and Biblically/historically, Jewish believers in Messiah - whether in Jerusalem or in the Diaspora - had NO problem identifying as Christian since the Way/Nazarene Sect within Judaism was also known as that (1 Peter 4:15-17 , Acts 11:25-27 Acts 26:27-29 - ) - and the terms of discussion focused on wasn't on whether or not one was a "Christian" when it came to Jewish culture - but rather, what TYPE of Christianity one had been practicing (i.e. Jewish Christianity vs. Gentile Christianity). Other non-believing Jews have long noted this.

    There are many excellent works on the issue - one of them being Nazarene Jewish Christianity: from the end of the New Testament Until Its Disappearance in the Fourth Century (Studia Post-Biblica)... by Ray Pritz .....a comprehensive study of the heirs of the earliest Jerusalem church, their history and doctrines, their relations with both synagogue and the growing Gentile church...with the author analyzing all sources, Jewish, Christian, and pagan, which can throw light on the sect and its ultimate mysterious disappearance. Additionally, another excellent resource is Jewish Christianity in apostolic times: A native Jewish Church andFather Bernstein Finds the Jews | The Groom's Family - as it concerns Jewish believers in the Church showing their heritage and what it means to live Messianic Jewish within Christendom - and often feel like they live in dual worlds....

    As there
    have always been various forms of Judaism, there are various forms of Messianic Jews.[/COLOR][/COLOR], so it is with the Church - but we are all ONE Body, One Church.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2014
  11. David Ben Yosef

    David Ben Yosef Foundation In Torah

    +104
    Messianic
    Single
    Welcome back, Mishkan! I've been enjoying your study on Ephesians over at your blog. You are a very talented writer. Did you take any courses for that, or is it just natural?
     
  12. mishkan

    mishkan There's room for YOU in the Mishkan! Supporter

    +234
    Non-Trinitarian
    Married
    US-Republican
    LOL! Thanks for the welcome.

    I'm glad you are enjoying the Ephesians study. It has been enhanced and put to print now. I will be posting the press release in about a week.

    The writing is just God-given talent. No formal training outside of a couple college classes on literature and lots of reading/writing over the years. I really started taking notice of what constitutes good vs. bad writing in the mid-90's, when I started coming across web pages that droned on forever, with no paragraph breaks, and no clear flow of logic. I thought to myself, "I can do better than that"... and so I did! :)

    I don't have a lot of time these days, but I will try to keep in touch here, as much as possible.
     
  13. annier

    annier Guest

    +0
    I am asking about the foundational ideas associated with the beginnings and purpose of worship at synagogue. The transfer of temple ritual ( as well as it's holiness) to synagogue. Bringing a sense of HOLINESS to Synagogue assembly (as a convocation) , and the performing of it's rituals, which prior belonged to God' house, and the servants in God's house.
    As I think the article which I copied from your op in another thread alludes to as "identifying with the jewish people", and " unique theological and ritual characteristics"
    The orientation of two parent communities.
    Evangelicalism
    Judaism
    Do you think it is not an issue here, that temple rituals along with some of it's holiness is not at play here? Don't you think it has an effect on the distictiveness Jew's have of themselves?

    Shouldn't these issues which are branded in the minds of Jew's be examined?
    Is the synagogue HOLY? Are those attending and performing those rituals HOLY?
    Is this the parent of the umjc?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 18, 2014
  14. mercy1061

    mercy1061 Newbie

    +114
    Messianic
    Married
    [/INDENT][/QUOTE]
    Of course it were the jews that were being crucified by the romans or gentiles. The original martyrs were all jews. Let us not ignore the obvious fact the entire torah was written by a
    jew. While the romans did acknowledge him as king, they did it while they continued to crucify him.
     
  15. Phillip Hawley

    Phillip Hawley Y'shua HaMoshiach based Messianic Jew

    +340
    Messianic
    Married
    I think in many cases, when people say the don't want to associate with the church, it is Christian theology with which they are really trying to distance themselves. Israel replacement, revisionism, anti-semitism, etc. Saying 'yea' to Y'shua means saying 'yea' to Y'shua. Nothing more. Nothing less.

    There are plenty of people that claim allegiance to the Messiah. But like so many before them, many worship with their lips, but are far from Him in their hearts.
     
  16. David Ben Yosef

    David Ben Yosef Foundation In Torah

    +104
    Messianic
    Single
    I sure wish I could write like that. Over the years of participating in fora such as this I have noticed invariably that it is not always the message that counts, but how that message is delivered. Take the King James Bible for instance. It is probably the most horrible English translation of the Greek NT texts that exists. But, on the other hand, it is an absolute literary masterpiece! And this is why it is still the best selling Bible version in the United States. My personal opinion, of course.

    Sounds great. I really enjoy your posts. I began to seriously study Israeli history because of a few posts of yours about two years ago. I'm indebted to you for that. I've learned quite a bit about it since then. :)
     
  17. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

    +1,118
    Oriental Orthodox
    Private
    US-Others
    With the Church, one thing I am thankful for are those who have died for the spread of the Gospel.....for anywhere His saints die (Psalm 116), it is a precious thing to the Lord. As it concerns current times, we already have the example of the author of "Tortured for Christ" Rev. Richard Wurmbrand , who is known in differing Messianic Jewish circles due to how he spoke in them often as an international Messianic Jewish leader in the body - being Jewish himself and the creator of the global ministry known as "Voice of the Martyrs" that documents persecution of believers all over the globe/is dedicated to honoring their struggle in the Lord just as the Early Church honored believers wherever they were - be it Jew or Gentile - for them suffering for the Faith ( more here and here, #231 /#235 )...

    Any where believers in Christ celebrated the Death and Resurrection of Yeshua, we should also be celebrating with them - for it is not seperate from the Jewish people/Israel to do so. Be it the Christians dying for the Gospel in Syria, Iraq or Uganda (with the children/women abused) or China with the Underground Church and so many other places - God's Body is to be celebrated when others perish for the Faith.

    And of course, there are many others besides that spreading the work of the Gospel - places such as the International House of Prayer - if aware of their work called Israel Mandate | Israel Mandate - International House of Prayer ( - working with multiple Messianic congregations when it comes to raising up house of prayer to intercede for the work of God - Gentiles honoring the Jewish people and Jewish people blessing the Gentiles in the common work of serving the Messiah.


    Much of that has been a blessing to see in action in light of how the Synagogue rejected the early Jewish believers in Messiah, who were originally called Nazarene Jews. For After the Temple fell, the Pharisees became the leadership, which led to today’s Orthodox Rabbinical Judaism - and the rabbis sought to preserve and unify the Jewish community under their teachings and excluded any other forms of Judaism.....leading to the eventual casting out of Nazarene Jews from rabbinical synagogues.

    Through different historical events eventually the loss of a community of Messianic Jews resulted in the loss of the bridge of understanding between Judaism and the Church - unfortunate since Messianic Jews could have kept alive the true picture of the Jewish Messiah and helped to avoid the future anti-Semitism in the Church. ...but even further than that, there was extensive history of Jewish people claiming to be God's people and yet dehumanizing other ethnic groups. That occurred in the Civil Rights era when it came to how many Jews spoke negatively toward blacks/didn't want to support them in their struggle even though they wanted to advance the cause of their people being protected - something unfortunate in light of the extensive history between Jews and Blacks during that time who went against the norm - and it even though there has been much collaboration between Jews and Gentiles (especially in the arts - from Bob Marley to Lenny Krativs to Andre Crouch and others), it has been consistently ignored by other Jews who sadly carry much prejudice toward Gentiles.....a form of racism.

    And Jews who were Christians were already persecuted by other Jews who didn't believe in Yeshua - or support forms of Judaism that existed and yet were not in line with what the commands of the Lord was about ). From the Bar Kokhba revolt where Jewish Christians were called "traitors" by Jewish patriots to times Gentile Christians were sold out to Roman authorities by others in Judaism itself who felt competition with Christians - and others who had the mindset of assuming each/everything associated with being Christian was "negative" despite where the Apostles already worn the name proudly from Acts 11 (where they were first called Christians in Antioch) to I Peter 4 where Peter speaks on bearing the name "Christian" and Acts 26:28 amongst many other places. The same also goes for forgetting where Gentiles were already keeping Holy Days and others (assuming the mindset that all Gentiles were automatically being kept from them because others didn't have the mindset they HAD to do so in order to gain God's approval in light of where Christ brought new dynamics to the Law/Torah) didn't wish to square with that - this being addressed before in previous discussions (such as here and here). And the Church, in reaching out to Gentiles, was also free to develop means of connecting with the Gentile world in ways that exalted the Lord while Jewish believers were able to do the same ....yet both were persecuted by the world.

    But in the end, in our times, Israel - in the form of the Church (Jew and Gentile) - has survived and is one in Messiah, seeking to reach out to those in Ethnic Israel so that they can show the life of the Messiah....the true purpose of what the Church was meant to be about....and the ways that the Lord has knit his people together to do amazing things :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2014
  18. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

    +1,118
    Oriental Orthodox
    Private
    US-Others
    [/QUOTE]Of course - and unfortunately, it was both Jews and Gentiles that often worked together to crucify others, from the thieves on the cross to Barabbas and Yeshua himself when the crowds demanded his death and the Gentiles carried out the execution at the orders of the Roman Leaders and Jewish leaders.

    Outside of Yeshua, the first real Martyr was Stephen from Acts 6 - one of the Hellenized Jews chosen to serve others in the community from his background...an after that, persecution broke out against the Church till Saul converted in Acts 9. And later, as it concerns the first of the Apostles to perish, it was St. James (Acts 12) at the hands of Herod. Many others followed after that, of course - both Jew and Gentile. Gentiles and Jews in the Early Body of believers all realized how indebted they were to the Lord and honored to walk with Him - while also seeing God's Work in history, be it seeing how Moses (Hebrew) wrote the Torah or how Jethro (Midianite) helped develop the legal system of the Judicial laws in Israel - or how Noah (Gentile) helped save the world, as did Abraham (Gentile background).

    God has always used Jew and Gentile for His purposes..
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2014
  19. David Ben Yosef

    David Ben Yosef Foundation In Torah

    +104
    Messianic
    Single
    I would be cautious who you label "saint" and how you define what the "Gospel" of the Kingdom actually is. I doubt that dying for replacement theology is a precious thing in the eyes of the G-d of Israel. It definitely is not what He had in mind in Tehilim 116! ;)
     
  20. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

    +1,118
    Oriental Orthodox
    Private
    US-Others
    Unless it is somehow the case that believing in Replacement Theology changes the fact that Yeshua is God Incarnate/the one who died to atone for sins of mankind when it comes to the simplicity of the Gospel (I Corinthians 15), I'd be cautious to assume who is or isn't a saint when it comes to people living out what Christ noted.

    Obvious is the fact that Replacement Theology isn't Biblical nor what God had in mind - but neither were a host of things present in the times of Christ (such as Retribution Theology - believing others suffering DESERVED to because of sin...John 9....or believing Gentiles had to be circumcised to be approved of by the Lord as Peter believed alongside many other Jews in Anti-Gentile ideologies ) - and God works with people where they are. Just as He can work thru someone only knowing John 3:16 (even though ignorant on other issues), he does so for others in all camps....and all kinds of issues, as the Hall of Faith (Hebrews 11) points out when seeing the characters of some and how much God worked in spite of.

    Dying for the Kingdom is sacred throughout the history of God's Kingdom - even more so when one does so for love for the Lord (I Corinthians 13) - and the blood of the saints in His name (Psalm 116:15-16) will always be sacred to Him wherever - and where Christ is preached, I rejoice:


    Ultimately, no one knows the full hearts/intents of others but the Lord and only He is the Final Judge.

    Wherever Christ is preached - His Death, Life and Resurrection - that is what we rejoice. And the Apostles of the Church noted this many times - just as much as they noted how it'll always be an issue whenever others claim Yeshua was NOT God or simply a man (which is a matter of a false Gospel - most of the early deadly heresies of the Church addressing it just as it is in addition to noting where Jew/Gentile together were Israel ...neither group devalued in Christ).
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2014
Loading...