Baha'i for Beginners

[Livindesert]

We're talking about your prophet's circular logic.

Speaking of that would you have followed Abraham after he alone received his revelation from God and you had to rely on his word?

Noah was told directly by God to build his ark if you were in Noah's town would you have changed your ways and listened to Noah and helped him build his ark?



Genesis 6:13
13 So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.

 

[pawnraider]

Speaking of that would you have followed Abraham after he alone received his revelation from God and you had to rely on his word?

This command was for Abraham alone and no one else.

Noah was told directly by God to build his ark if you were in Noah's town would you have changed your ways and listened to Noah and helped him build his ark?

This command was for Noah alone and no one else.

Hypotheticals have never impressed me.

 

[Arthra]

Yet the Jesus Christ of Christianity and the Jesus of the Baha'i faith are two completely different people! One was and is God and the other is not. The one thing the Baha'is have yet to prove is that all faiths have or at one time believed and taught as the Baha'is currently do. This cannot be done. Christianity has believed from day one that Jesus Christ is the promised Messiah and that He is God. We are continually warned in the Bible about the appearance of false christs and false prophets and there have been and there are many. Can you really blame us for holding selfishly to our beliefs when we are taught to do so?

You can hold to your beliefs.. No one here is trying to convert you or argue with you and we'll not engage in a debate with you..

Our beliefs are that Jesus Christ was not God but manifested His attributes perfectly.. His "Mirror" was perfectly polished from the beginning while the rest of us have to work to polish our mirrors!

Yes our view is different from yours and this thread was about Baha'i beliefs..

We accept that the teachings of Jesus are essentially as found in the Gospels.

We believe Jesus was actually crucified and that He physically died on the cross and that He spiritually was resurrected.

We also believe that all the great religions are spiritually one and that each age has had it's own laws and requirements to relate to the challenges humanity faces.. the challenges today are different from wehat they were say in the time of Moses.. so new requirement require new laws and so on..

When Jesus walked the earth mmost peopel didn't believe Him..some condemned Him and wanted to stone Him. He was using Beelzebub to drive out demons they said


Luke 1:15 "But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils."

So this rejection is nothing new and unfortunately it is usually the religious professionals that reject the most..

 

[pawnraider]

Our beliefs are that Jesus Christ was not God but manifested His attributes perfectly.. His "Mirror" was perfectly polished from the beginning while the rest of us have to work to polish our mirrors!

The Bible teaches and supports our beliefs about Jesus Christ while it fails to do either about the Baha'i conception of Jesus Christ.

We believe Jesus was actually crucified and that He physically died on the cross and that He spiritually was resurrected.

The Bible supports the belief that the resurrection was physical and fails to support your contention that Jesus' resurrection was nothing more than spiritual. Would you like me to show you again how and where it does this?

So this rejection is nothing new and unfortunately it is usually the religious professionals that reject the most..

But many did believe in Him. Acts 6:7, "And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith."

 

[Montalban]

Speaking of that would you have followed Abraham after he alone received his revelation from God and you had to rely on his word?

Noah was told directly by God to build his ark if you were in Noah's town would you have changed your ways and listened to Noah and helped him build his ark?

We are operating on two different systems. You ask questions I answer. I ask you dodge. Such as this. Rather than answer about your prophet, you ask me about this.

But I will endeavour to answer because you show by your own actions why one shouldn't be Baha'i

Firstly Abraham. Abraham was a 'prophet' only in a sense that he began the story for the Jews. He didn't make any claims based on his interpretation of other people's scriptures. He started a faith based on his own family and I guess they had servants and slaves.

I could not have followed Abraham as I wasn't chosen; I wasn't part of his household.

Same with Noah. Noah was chosen by God because he was excpetional and God wanted the others to perish.

If I were around in Noah's day I would have been, by virtue of not being called by God, one God wanted to perish.

I'm not aware of Noah or Abraham making claims of prophethood - and for people to follow them. If you're aware, let me know. Baha'i have a problem with analogy.

It's academic anyway as I'm not around in those days.

Further, and this is the annoying bit, I've already stated my view on the OT by showing you that we believe we had 'pefect knowledge' of God's will following from Pentecost. Whilst you continue to ignore things like that you'll continue to ask me questions like the one I'm answering now.

I don't follow the OT. The OT was completed by the NT

 

[Montalban]

It is the elephant whom the blind men feel. Each touches a different part some small some large. They only contradict each other if we think they do.

Apparently the blind people couldn't ask the Mahout what an elephant was.

 

[Montalban]

We accept that the teachings of Jesus are essentially as found in the Gospels.

Except the main one - that he's God.

Why do you accept these Gospels? They weren't themselves chosen by the church (and put into a canon) until 300 years later.

 

[Sen McGlinn]

In the first place, they are their own proof -- that's why the faithful, and later the Church recognised them. The same can be said of the Manifestation of God: they are their own proofs.

In the second place, there is a rational argument which supposes the power and justice of God (which belief is based on the Manifestations and the scriptures, so it is a circular argument). Baha'u'llah writes:

We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, .... such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also? What would be left to that people to cling to from the setting of the day-star of Jesus until the rise of the sun of the Muhammadan Dispensation? What law could be their stay and guide? How could such people be made the victims of the avenging wrath of God, the omnipotent Avenger? How could they be afflicted with the scourge of chastisement by the heavenly King?

Above all, how could the flow of the grace of the All-Bountiful be stayed? How could the ocean of His tender mercies be stilled? We take refuge with God, from that which His creatures have fancied about Him! Exalted is He above their comprehension!
(see ht tp:/ /reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-3.html#pg88
Book of Certitude pages 88-89)

 

[Montalban]

In the first place, they are their own proof -- that's why the faithful, and later the Church recognised them. The same can be said of the Manifestation of God: they are their own proofs.

In the second place, there is a rational argument which supposes the power and justice of God (which belief is based on the Manifestations and the scriptures, so it is a circular argument). Baha'u'llah writes:

What proofs?

 

[Sen McGlinn]

What proofs?

The proof I quoted, from the words of Baha'u'llah in the Book of Certitude.

 

[Livindesert]

We are operating on two different systems. You ask questions I answer. I ask you dodge. Such as this. Rather than answer about your prophet, you ask me about this.

But I will endeavour to answer because you show by your own actions why one shouldn't be Baha'i

Firstly Abraham. Abraham was a 'prophet' only in a sense that he began the story for the Jews. He didn't make any claims based on his interpretation of other people's scriptures. He started a faith based on his own family and I guess they had servants and slaves.

I could not have followed Abraham as I wasn't chosen; I wasn't part of his household.

Same with Noah. Noah was chosen by God because he was excpetional and God wanted the others to perish.

If I were around in Noah's day I would have been, by virtue of not being called by God, one God wanted to perish.

I'm not aware of Noah or Abraham making claims of prophethood - and for people to follow them. If you're aware, let me know. Baha'i have a problem with analogy.

It's academic anyway as I'm not around in those days.

Further, and this is the annoying bit, I've already stated my view on the OT by showing you that we believe we had 'pefect knowledge' of God's will following from Pentecost. Whilst you continue to ignore things like that you'll continue to ask me questions like the one I'm answering now.

I don't follow the OT. The OT was completed by the NT

Not sure what I have not answered. Anyway the stories of Abraham and Noah shows that sometimes even for huge earth changing events God will tell one person what to do and the rest have to follow him.

Now also you say a manefestaitions testemony is not valid alone but I think it is as dose Jesus in my view.

John 13-18

13The Pharisees challenged him, "Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid."
14Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. 15You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. 17In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. 18I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."

John 8:27-30
27They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. 29The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him." 30Even as he spoke, many put their faith in him.

 

[pawnraider]

Now also you say a manefestaitions testemony is not valid alone but I think it is as dose Jesus in my view.

And this is where our theologies separate. You consider Jesus Christ a mere "manifestation" whereby we Christians believe Him to be God. As I've stated before, and appears to fall on deaf ears, we have biblical support for such a belief which you do not for yours.

 

[Arthra]

And this is where our theologies separate. You consider Jesus Christ a mere "manifestation" whereby we Christians believe Him to be God. As I've stated before, and appears to fall on deaf ears, we have biblical support for such a belief which you do not for yours.

I think in your replies.. I've noticed you use words like a "mere manifestation" .. Our view of Manifestation means that God manifests Himself and in the case of certain special Persons from age to age this not a "mere manifestation".

Earlier you did the same thing regarding Jesus' resurrection "was nothing more than spiritual" ... We don't reduce that or it's significance to us spiritual resurrection is essential.. The body is material and served a purpose but it decays eventually.

For the sake of argument you seek to diminish concepts you may not fully understand ..

You can believe Jesus Christ is God and that He created the world if you wish.. that's your right and of course consider that Jesus would be the closest thing to God they had experienced so it would be natural for some to think Jesus as God..

We could get into a long protracted discussion on this but would it really serve the purpose of this thread?

"Theology" and doctrines and creedal statements developed over centuries of time..while there can be truths in them they can also become rigid and binding statements.. in some churches they are recited at every worship service. Over time some of these creedal statements have divided Christians and caused conflicts.

In Baha'i Faith we place a greater importance on what we call the Covenant rather than a creed as such.. when we become Baha'is about all we acknowledge is that Baha'u'llah is the Promised One for this day and that we recognize His forerunner the Bab and Abdul-Baha the Center of His Covenant.. that's as close to a "creed" you will find.

 

[Livindesert]

We could get into a long protracted discussion on this but would it really serve the purpose of this thread?

Very true threads are suppose to now be informational only.Not a debate area as this thread has turned into. Forgive me if I have been breaking this rule or the rule on promotion.

Promotion includes personal testimony and experiences which go beyond the basic information of a religion (personal witnessing, testifying, or guidance on practicing a non-Christian religion).

 

[pawnraider]

For the sake of argument you seek to diminish concepts you may not fully understand ..

Yet this is exactly what you do when you attempt to demote the diety of Jesus Christ to that of a "manifestation".

You can believe Jesus Christ is God and that He created the world if you wish.. that's your right and of course consider that Jesus would be the closest thing to God they had experienced so it would be natural for some to think Jesus as God..

The Bible fully supports as well as teaches the diety of Jesus Christ and fails to support your and the Baha'i belief and teaching of Jesus. The Bible supports a physical resurrection and fails to support any other conclusion than that.

We have believed in the diety of Jesus Christ for well over 1800 years before the advent of "Baha'u'llah" and then he comes along and basically tells us we had it wrong for that length of time? What would you think?

"Theology" and doctrines and creedal statements developed over centuries of time..while there can be truths in them they can also become rigid and binding statements.. in some churches they are recited at every worship service. Over time some of these creedal statements have divided Christians and caused conflicts.

You rather we compromise just so we can all get along? I don't think its the creeds that have caused division but rather our adherence to the Bible that has. And besides creedal statements and statements of faith are not at issue here. I've never referred to any but the Bible has been my only authority of appeal. Please don't try to deflect the issue to such issues. Thank you.

 

[Livindesert]

We have believed in the diety of Jesus Christ for well over 1800 years before the advent of "Baha'u'llah" and then he comes along and basically tells us we had it wrong for that length of time? What would you think?

Baha'is don't think you got it wrong just that Baha'is believe extra information was made availible by God on the subject.

You rather we compromise just so we can all get along?

Not compromise just to recognize we see thinks in different ways. As Athra said were not here to convert people just to answer questions regarding the Baha'i Faith and practice.

 

[pawnraider]

Baha'is don't think you got it wrong just that Baha'is believe extra information was made availible by God on the subject.

Well that's interesting! First God tells us that Jesus Christ is divine as is stated in the Bbible and now we're to believe that He's not and that He's just a "manifestation" as the Baha'is want us to believe? I'm sure you can appreciate the difficulty of such a situation.

Not compromise just to recognize we see thinks [sic] in different ways.

Both views cannot be right.

 

[peaceful soul]

originally posted by Livindesert

Not sure what I have not answered.

Perhaps this will remind you.

We're talking about your prophet's circular logic.

I didn't see that you specifically address that. Instead you started talking about Abraham and Noah in the following link: http://www.christianforums.com/t7466026-97/#post55270979. You switched the subject. Why?

Anyway the stories of Abraham and Noah shows that sometimes even for huge earth changing events God will tell one person what to do and the rest have to follow him.

I notice you and other Bahi's quite often overgeneralize or make comparisons that are not strictly relevant to discussion in order to make parallels so that one topic resembles another. That gives the appearance of agreement and continuity between what they are saying and what Christians are saying. If you read both accounts, you will see that your view is not entirely correct and applicable to the topic. Now, let's look at the verses that you didn't quote to see the application.

Noah:

Gen 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
Gen 6:18 But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.
Gen 6:19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.
Gen 6:20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.
Gen 6:21 And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them.
Gen 6:22 Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.

Upon inspection, we do not see a complete parallel to your prophet. We see that Noah was instructed by God to do a task. No one else was affected by what he did at the time. He was not obligated to go and collect converts or to announce a revelation. This was an isolated event that God used to bring about judgment upon the earth because of the increased wickedness of men and great evil in their hearts (Gen 6:5). God made a covenant with Noah because He saw that Noah was the only one that seemed to obey Him. He spared him and his family as a result.

In conclusion, Noah was separated from the wickedness of this earth and spared from God's judgment of man. He was not called in the manner of your prophet. There was no requirement for him to be followed as you suggested.

Abraham:

In a similar manner, Abraham was called by God to do a task which was foreign to your suggestion. It was basically the same type of calling that Noah received. The only immediate affect was upon him and his family later. He was not called to go and proselytize or to be ordained to give revelation to a group of people. This was an isolated event that was bound by a covenant, just as was the case with Noah. These covenants did have great impact upon the mankind, but they were personal covenants. There was no need for anyone else to follow in the sense of a declaration from God. It is worth noting that the immediate families of both Abraham and Noah followed only because it was expedient for them since they were family--not because either Noah or Abraham claimed that God commanded them to give revelation to them.

You should hopefully learn from this and see that context is very important; otherwise, any kind of parallel can be made falsely or inaccurately by overgeneralizing. In neither case did Noah nor Abraham use circular logic or did they profess to have a revelation that required others to follow.

Now also you say a manefestaitions testemony is not valid alone but I think it is as dose Jesus in my view.

The testimonies of God's prophets are never isolated like with Baha'ullah. Even if they receive revelation, the people that are to receive the revelation have some way of validating the prophet independently of that prophet. A prime example was with Moses. The Children of Israel saw directly that Moses was ordained by God. God spoke directly to them and appeared in a cloud. With Mohammad, the Bab, and Baha'ullah, we see 3 men who were self appointed. No one could verify that Mohammad was a prophet of God or that he received a revelation apart from Mohammad's assertions. The same with the Bab and Baha'ullah. What independent confirmations did either of them have? How could they be tested apart from their own proofs?

 

[peaceful soul]

We have believed in the diety of Jesus Christ for well over 1800 years before the advent of "Baha'u'llah" and then he comes along and basically tells us we had it wrong for that length of time? What would you think?

Baha'is don't think you got it wrong just that Baha'is believe extra information was made availible by God on the subject.

In other words, your revelation is esoteric. Only the few insiders know what is really going on. I think that you have been reading to many Illuminati books. Shi'a mysticism at its best! Understand that the Bible has its own hermeneutics. You should learn how to use it so you want obliterate the Bible's meanings any more.

If there is more information given by your religious interpretations, then it shouldn't contradict what is already understood. If that is correct, then your view can't be correct based upon the native understanding.

You rather we compromise just so we can all get along?

Not compromise just to recognize we see thinks in different ways. As Athra said were not here to convert people just to answer questions regarding the Baha'i Faith and practice.

We already know that you see things differently, and to a great degree, we know why. Baha'ullah was heavily influenced by Shi'ite mysticism and used those methods of interpretation that provides several layers of meanings beyond the literal. In some cases, the literal is overlooked or highly under emphasized in place of the more esoteric ones. A passage could have as many as 50 different meanings, depending upon the interpreter.

The main problem is that what you see and how you see it is not in accordance with biblical hermeneutics. You are relying upon esoteric interpretations, which are foreign to the text. The early Church fathers or the Apostles used such an approach; so, a Baha'i has no license to do so. If you want to disagree with a Christian's interpretation, at least use the same methodology in arriving at your disagreements. That is what any learned Christian should do.

 

[Livindesert]

Peacful soul I already addressed Montalban's question. Here I will re-post.

John 13-18

13The Pharisees challenged him, "Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid."
14Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. 15You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. 17In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. 18I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."
​

John 8:27-30
27They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. 29The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him." 30Even as he spoke, many put their faith in him.
​

Luke 16:29-32 (New International Version)
​

29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "
​

Jesus's words alone with nothing else were enough for many to turn to him. Jesus himself says his testemony is valid on his own behalf. Also don't forget about the rich man's relatives.