Bad theology springs from bible selectivity.

GingerBeer

Cool and refreshing with a kick!
Mar 26, 2017
3,511
1,348
Australia
✟119,825.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
You make none of these qualifications in your OP.
You are correct that I do not specifically distinguish between biblical uses of "perfect" and the way that some appear to use "perfect" as if it denotes an incommunicable attribute of God. That is because I do not use the word as if it were an incommunicable attribute of God and did not bother to say so until some posts in the thread came up with something like that in what they had to say about "perfect" and later about "blameless" implying total and absolute sinlessness. I also did not explain other points that did not arise until later in the thread. Not everything needs to be stated in the original post. Some matters arise as new needs arise in the discussion.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,176
25,219
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,727,040.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
You have misreported the history of my posts. Maybe you have not remembered the posts accurately.
No, I haven't. If Job sinned, then your point you were trying to force is moot.
 
Upvote 0

GingerBeer

Cool and refreshing with a kick!
Mar 26, 2017
3,511
1,348
Australia
✟119,825.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
If Job sinned, then your point you were trying to force is moot.
The scriptures do not say that Job sinned. In fact the scriptures say that Job was perfect and upright.

Sinning and being implicated in original sin are not the same thing. Job is implicated in original sin but there is no direct evidence that Job sinned. The same applies to Enoch. In the case of Jesus the scripture is explicit that Jesus knew no sin and that God is his Father and that he was born of the virgin Mary so he appears to be not implicated in original sin because his Father is God rather than a descendant of Adam.
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,176
25,219
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,727,040.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
The scriptures do not say that Job sinned. In fact the scriptures say that Job was perfect and upright.

Sinning and being implicated in original sin are not the same thing. Job is implicated in original sin but there is no direct evidence that Job sinned. The same applies to Enoch. In the case of Jesus the scripture is explicit that Jesus knew no sin and that God is his Father and that he was born of the virgin Mary so he appears to be not implicated in original sin because his Father is God rather than a descendant of Adam.
Doublespeak.
 
Upvote 0

GingerBeer

Cool and refreshing with a kick!
Mar 26, 2017
3,511
1,348
Australia
✟119,825.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Doublespeak.
Are you referring to something from the novel 1984 by George Orwell? That novel had "doublethink" and "newspeak" but I cannot recall "doublespeak". Or did you intend to type "double talk"? In either case you need to be more specific about what you mean because "doublespeak" is not a coherent idea nor is it an English language sentence so I do not know what you mean by it.
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,176
25,219
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,727,040.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Are you referring to something from the novel 1984 by George Orwell? That novel had "doublethink" and "newspeak" but I cannot recall "doublespeak". Or did you intend to type "double talk"? In either case you need to be more specific about what you mean because "doublespeak" is not a coherent idea nor is it an English language sentence so I do not know what you mean by it.
Doublespeak -
  1. evasive, ambiguous language that is intended to deceive or confuse.
 
Upvote 0

GingerBeer

Cool and refreshing with a kick!
Mar 26, 2017
3,511
1,348
Australia
✟119,825.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Doublespeak -
  1. evasive, ambiguous language that is intended to deceive or confuse.
Now you ought to tell me specifically what part or parts of the following is misleading to you
The scriptures do not say that Job sinned. In fact the scriptures say that Job was perfect and upright.

Sinning and being implicated in original sin are not the same thing. Job is implicated in original sin but there is no direct evidence that Job sinned. The same applies to Enoch. In the case of Jesus the scripture is explicit that Jesus knew no sin and that God is his Father and that he was born of the virgin Mary so he appears to be not implicated in original sin because his Father is God rather than a descendant of Adam.​
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,176
25,219
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,727,040.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Now you ought to tell me specifically what part or parts of the following is misleading to you
The scriptures do not say that Job sinned. In fact the scriptures say that Job was perfect and upright.

Sinning and being implicated in original sin are not the same thing. Job is implicated in original sin but there is no direct evidence that Job sinned. The same applies to Enoch. In the case of Jesus the scripture is explicit that Jesus knew no sin and that God is his Father and that he was born of the virgin Mary so he appears to be not implicated in original sin because his Father is God rather than a descendant of Adam.​
I asked a simple yes/no question.

So was Job sinless?
Instead of a yes/no answer, you posted
Why do you say that "Job was sinless". God asserts that Job was "perfect and upright" and I agree with Job. God did not say "Job is sinless". In fact Job was implicated in original sin just as you and I are. One cannot be sinless and yet implicated in original sin. But one can be "perfect and upright" in one's own conduct even if one is implicated in original sin and Job is said to be exactly that (perfect and upright) by God.
Lots of ambiguity.
 
Upvote 0

GingerBeer

Cool and refreshing with a kick!
Mar 26, 2017
3,511
1,348
Australia
✟119,825.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Job did not sin in word or deed as far as the scripture testimony is concerned. Job was also born of the seed of Adam and hence was born in Original Sin. So the answer to your question is "no Job did not sin in word or deed" and also "Job was born in original sin but that does not mean that Job sinned in word or deed".
 
Upvote 0

disciple1

Newbie
Aug 1, 2012
2,168
546
✟62,178.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Does not 1 John 1:8 say that if we have no sin we deceive ourselves?

Answer: Well, what is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at it's immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 moves verse 8 (which is present tense) into a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned at some point in their life (Regardless of whether they are an OSAS believer or a Conditional Salvationist). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."
(1 John 1:8 NET).​

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their sins are paid for: Past, present, and future by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus paid for it all by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.



If you were to re-read James chapter 2 and pay a little more attention to what it says, James is saying this not as means of how nobody can keep the whole law, but he is saying this as a means of condemnation in not loving the brethren. The chapter begins with certain believers having respect of persons. They favor the rich or financially well brethren, but they do not show favor towards the poor brethren. They are breaking the "Royal Law." For James calls it this. The Royal Law is loving your neighbor. James defines it this way. Then James talks about how if you break this law, you are guilty of breaking all of God's good laws. Then James continues to drive his point home about not having respect of persons by saying that faith without works is dead. Meaning, a person cannot just have a belief on Jesus and have no love in their actions towards others. James is saying that kind of faith is a dead kind of faith. In fact, the eternal moral law is kept by loving your neighbor (See Romans 13:8-1
Romans chapter 4
13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

disciple1

Newbie
Aug 1, 2012
2,168
546
✟62,178.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Did Jesus sin - he certainly is one who lived and you say "everyone who has ever lived has sinned". The scriptures say
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who in every respect has been tested as we are, yet without sin.
Hebrews 4:15
Your twisting things because you misunderstand the bible, and what Jesus did.
Romans chapter 4
13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
 
Upvote 0

disciple1

Newbie
Aug 1, 2012
2,168
546
✟62,178.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Does not 1 John 1:8 say that if we have no sin we deceive ourselves?

Answer: Well, what is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at it's immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 moves verse 8 (which is present tense) into a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned at some point in their life (Regardless of whether they are an OSAS believer or a Conditional Salvationist). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."
(1 John 1:8 NET).​

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their sins are paid for: Past, present, and future by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus paid for it all by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.



If you were to re-read James chapter 2 and pay a little more attention to what it says, James is saying this not as means of how nobody can keep the whole law, but he is saying this as a means of condemnation in not loving the brethren. The chapter begins with certain believers having respect of persons. They favor the rich or financially well brethren, but they do not show favor towards the poor brethren. They are breaking the "Royal Law." For James calls it this. The Royal Law is loving your neighbor. James defines it this way. Then James talks about how if you break this law, you are guilty of breaking all of God's good laws. Then James continues to drive his point home about not having respect of persons by saying that faith without works is dead. Meaning, a person cannot just have a belief on Jesus and have no love in their actions towards others. James is saying that kind of faith is a dead kind of faith. In fact, the eternal moral law is kept by loving your neighbor (See Romans 13:8-10).


...
Romans chapter 4
15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,502
7,861
...
✟1,192,685.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Romans chapter 4

A believer is initially and ultimately saved by Jesus Christ and His death and resurrection when they repent of their sins and accept Him as their Savior. This is where we read about Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5. But if you were to closely look at Ephesians 5:25-27 and Titus 2:14, you would understand that the REASON or PURPOSE Jesus gave (sacrificed) Himself for us (the church) is for the express purpose of making us holy, without blemish, and that we would be zealous of good works.

For faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17).
Titus 1:16 says you can deny God by a lack of works.

So works are still a part of the salvation process; And works are in harmony God's grace and the faith we have in Him as our Savior.

But what about Romans 4? Well, in Romans 4, it is not promoting a belief alone type gospel with the exclusion of works as a part of God's plan of salvation.
That would be bad theology that does not look at the context as the thread says.

Romans 4 says,

21 "And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness." (Romans 4:21-22).​

1 John 1:7 says a similar thing. It says, if we walk in the light as he is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

This means that if we abide in Christ and His righteousness, His sacrifice is applied to our life. When we speak of righteousness, we are talking about 1 John 3:7 that says, he that does righteousness is righteous. Our righteousness alone apart from God? Surely not. It is Christ who works within in us. It is Christ who does the good work though our life. So we cannot take the credit and pat ourselves on the back, etc. Jesus deserves all the glory.


...
 
Upvote 0

jimmyjimmy

Pardoned Rebel
Site Supporter
Jan 2, 2015
11,556
5,728
USA
✟234,973.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Do you intend to assert that having been given grace and faith by God it becomes a human responsibility to continue in them by doing good and believing God faithfully?

One must place *his* faith in Christ in order to be saved.
 
Upvote 0

disciple1

Newbie
Aug 1, 2012
2,168
546
✟62,178.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
A believer is initially and ultimately saved by Jesus Christ and His death and resurrection when they repent of their sins and accept Him as their Savior. This is where we read about Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5. But if you were to closely look at Ephesians 5:25-27 and Titus 2:14, you would understand that the REASON or PURPOSE Jesus gave (sacrificed) Himself for us (the church) is for the express purpose of making us holy, without blemish, and that we would be zealous of good works.

For faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17).
Titus 1:16 says you can deny God by a lack of works.

So works are still a part of the salvation process; And works are in harmony God's grace and the faith we have in Him as our Savior.

But what about Romans 4? Well, in Romans 4, it is not promoting a belief alone type gospel with the exclusion of works as a part of God's plan of salvation.
That would be bad theology that does not look at the context as the thread says.

Romans 4 says,

21 "And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness." (Romans 4:21-22).​

1 John 1:7 says a similar thing. It says, if we walk in the light as he is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

This means that if we abide in Christ and His righteousness, His sacrifice is applied to our life. When we speak of righteousness, we are talking about 1 John 3:7 that says, he that does righteousness is righteous. Our righteousness alone apart from God? Surely not. It is Christ who works within in us. It is Christ who does the good work though our life. So we cannot take the credit and pat ourselves on the back, etc. Jesus deserves all the glory.


...
1 Peter chapter 4 verse 8
Love covers a great many sins.

And your only born of God through love.

Romans chapter 7
4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

stuart lawrence

Well-Known Member
Oct 21, 2015
10,527
1,603
65
✟70,875.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
1 Peter chapter 4 verse 8
Love covers a great many sins.

And your only born of God through love.

Romans chapter 7
4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
To save you time. Jason believes rom 7:4-6 only refers to old law as he puts it. Non applicable OC law. The Levitical, legalistic laws. It doesn't refer to the moral law/TC.
Kinda strange belief as Paul spends the rest of the chapter talking about: Thou shalt not covet!
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,502
7,861
...
✟1,192,685.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Job did not sin in word or deed as far as the scripture testimony is concerned. Job was also born of the seed of Adam and hence was born in Original Sin. So the answer to your question is "no Job did not sin in word or deed" and also "Job was born in original sin but that does not mean that Job sinned in word or deed".

Job later sinned at the end of the book of Job. That is why he abhored himself and he repented in dust and ashes. Job spoke in vain and uttered words without knowledge. He felt that he did not deserve to be punished the way that he was being punished because he was living righteously. God wanted to show him the error of his ways and give him a bigger perspective by showing him the wonders of creation. God has a bigger picture in store that we cannot see. Job's sin in the end (that he repented of) was his words. Jesus says it is not that enters the mouth that defiles a man but it is what comes out of the mouth that defiles him. But yes. At one time, Job walked perfectly and was upright. But this was no guarantee that he could not faulter and sin (As we see at the end of the book of Job). Again, even Lucifer was said to be perfect at one time, but then iniquity was found within him. "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee." (Ezekiel 28:15).


....
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,502
7,861
...
✟1,192,685.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
1 Peter chapter 4 verse 8
Love covers a great many sins.

And your only born of God through love.

One is not loving if they are still sinning against God and others.
Love only covers a multitude of sins if one only repents.

You said:
Romans chapter 7
...the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

This is talking about those who are under the Law of Moses. The sinful passions are aroused by keeping the Law alone without God's grace or a Savior. Paul explains his experience of being a Pharisee who tried to keep the Law of Moses alone without Jesus. The Law alone was his salvation. He was striving to obey it on his own power but could not do it. The sinful passions were aroused by his law keeping of the Torah without Jesus. Romans 13:14 tells us to put on the Lord Jesus Christ so as to crucify the affections and lusts. Romans 7 is not talking about obeying the commands of the New Testament after one has accepted Jesus as their Savior. Paul was recounting his struggle with sin as a Pharisee in verses 14-24. Verse 5 here gives us the "Title" or "Explanation" of his struggle in verses 14-24.

We see the sinful passions aroused by Paul (Saul's) law keeping of Old Covenant Law that brought fruit unto death in verses 14-24.


...
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

disciple1

Newbie
Aug 1, 2012
2,168
546
✟62,178.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
One is not loving if they are still sinning against God and others.
Love only covers a multitude of sins if one only repents.



This is talking about those who are under the Law of Moses. The sinful passions are aroused by keeping the Law alone without God's grace or a Savior. Paul explains his experience of being a Pharisee who tried to keep the Law of Moses alone without Jesus. The Law alone was his salvation. He was striving to obey it on his own power but could not do it. The sinful passions were aroused by his law keeping of the Torah without Jesus. Romans 13:14 tells us to put on the Lord Jesus Christ so as to crucify the affections and lusts. Romans 7 is not talking about obeying the commands of the New Testament after one has accepted Jesus as their Savior. Paul was recounting his struggle with sin as a Pharisee in verses 14-24. Verse 5 here gives us the "Title" or "Explanation" of his struggle in verses 14-24.

We see the sinful passions aroused by Paul (Saul's) law keeping of Old Covenant Law that brought fruit unto death in verses 14-24.


...
Love only covers a multitude of sins if one only repents.
I guess God should have checked with you before he wrote the bible.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

stuart lawrence

Well-Known Member
Oct 21, 2015
10,527
1,603
65
✟70,875.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Bad theology, is head theology of the little grey cells. Purely an academic exercise, devoid of spiritual discernment. Theology built solely according to the letter.
Often such theology fails to grasp the undercurrent of everything written in the letter.
Gods great love, mercy and compassion to those who are his children:
I trust in God's unfailing love forever and ever
Psalms52:8
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0