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Featured Bad theology springs from bible selectivity.

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by GingerBeer, Aug 8, 2017.

  1. Gluttonous Winebibber

    Gluttonous Winebibber New Member

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    I would say the only threat bad theology has it to the unlearned, non-reader, because it springs from the same. So instead of spending your days never trusting anyone's theology, because then you'll miss out on some real understanding, read the bible and then look at theology. Then you will be able to discern true understanding and the fakes, which will be more power to you. 1 Corinthians 8:2

    TLDR; Read the Bible.
     
  2. GingerBeer

    GingerBeer Cool and refreshing with a kick!

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    Every human being born by natural generation needs a redeemer regardless of whether they have sinned or not because every human being is implicated in the first sin of Eve and Adam. Paul explains it:
    Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned-- sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift in the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the effect of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brings justification. If, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous. Law came in, to increase the trespass; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    Romans 5:12-21
    Give some thought to this question. Exactly for what sins must an unborn infant who dies repent and offer atonement? If your answer is that the death of the unborn infant is proof of sin's fruit in the infant I say, yes that it true because Adam's sin implicated the infant even though the infant knew no sins of its own having done nothing either good or bad. But if you say that the unborn infant is a wicked sinner full of wicked intentions and wicked desires that will show themselves in wicked acts I will reply that the infant has not yet been born and consequently has done nothing (nothing at all) either good or bad. Paul himself argued so with respect to Jacob and Esau:
    And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad, in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call, she was told, "The elder will serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
    Romans 9:10-13
    So the conclusion is that unborn infants has done nothing at all and hence have done nothing sinful by their own volition. Clearly some human beings are in fact free from personally performed sins at the time of their death. Clearly not absolutely every human being has sinned by a deliberate act of their own.
     
  3. disciple1

    disciple1 Newbie

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    If I where you I'd pray for wisdom understand and insight, because everyone who has ever lived has sinned.
    Jeremiah chapter 1 verse 5
    "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

    That means God knows everything about a person before their even born, even before a baby is aborted if it is, God knows it.
     
  4. GingerBeer

    GingerBeer Cool and refreshing with a kick!

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    Exactly what sins has an unborn infant who dies before birth performed?
     
  5. disciple1

    disciple1 Newbie

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    Maybe we're trying to go to much past what the bible teaches.
    Romans chapter 9 verse 11
    Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand:

    Maybe it doesn't matter.

    Galatians chapter 5 verse 6
    The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself in love.


    1 Peter chapter 4 verse 8
    Love covers a great many sins.
     
  6. disciple1

    disciple1 Newbie

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    And an unformed baby this doesn't mean anything to.
     
  7. GingerBeer

    GingerBeer Cool and refreshing with a kick!

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    Like the original post says bad theology springs from selective bible reading.
     
  8. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I agree with you on Romans 3. If Romans 3:10, and Romans 3:23 is talking to the faithful believer in Jesus Christ or all believers who have ever lived, then we must also conclude that believers also have no understanding and they are not seeking after God, too. For verse 11 in Romans 3 says,

    "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." (Romans 3:11).​

    In Romans 3: I believe Paul is talking about how most of all of us have sinned at one point in our lives and this is why we need Jesus Christ. Jesus cleans the slate and forgives us of our past sins. From there, we abide in Christ and Jesus then does the good works through our lives (Note: We look primarily to the New Testament to obey God and not the Old Testament; For the New Covenant is the Covenant we are now under).

    As for "Original Sin": I believe we all sinned in Adam. We all would have made the same choice he did. We are part of Adam. Levi paid tithes in Abraham. Hebrews 7:9 says, "And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham." It's sometimes why sons also carry on the sins of the father like being drunks, as well. Granted, not in every case, but it does happen. The sin of alcoholism can be passed through the family.

    As for Job: Hmmm, not sure if he was sinnless his whole life because it says he needed a redeemer. Also, Job was rebuked by God for blaming the Lord a little, as well (Towards the end). I believe Job was perfect and upright and he feared God but this was not some kind of belief that Christians have today who think they sin every day or every week, etc. I believe Job reached a point after being born again spiritually (after repenting of his sins), his walk with the Lord reached a point of perfection. Maybe this was right away, or maybe it took a little while. We do not know. But at the time God said he was upright and perfect, this is speaking about how Job was living righteously at that time. This was not a sin and still be saved kind of belief Job was living in. Job was upright. That means he was walking upright. Job was walking righteously at the time God was referencing him to the devil. In fact, the devil was said to be perfect, until iniquity was found within him (Ezekiel 28:15). So a perfection does not mean one cannot fall or faulter. Angels and man still have free will (even if they were to walk upright and perfect before God in the past).


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    Last edited: Aug 8, 2017
  9. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Does not 1 John 1:8 say that if we have no sin we deceive ourselves?

    Answer: Well, what is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at it's immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 moves verse 8 (which is present tense) into a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned at some point in their life (Regardless of whether they are an OSAS believer or a Conditional Salvationist). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

    In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

    "If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."
    (1 John 1:8 NET).​

    In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their sins are paid for: Past, present, and future by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus paid for it all by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

    If you were to re-read James chapter 2 and pay a little more attention to what it says, James is saying this not as means of how nobody can keep the whole law, but he is saying this as a means of condemnation in not loving the brethren. The chapter begins with certain believers having respect of persons. They favor the rich or financially well brethren, but they do not show favor towards the poor brethren. They are breaking the "Royal Law." For James calls it this. The Royal Law is loving your neighbor. James defines it this way. Then James talks about how if you break this law, you are guilty of breaking all of God's good laws. Then James continues to drive his point home about not having respect of persons by saying that faith without works is dead. Meaning, a person cannot just have a belief on Jesus and have no love in their actions towards others. James is saying that kind of faith is a dead kind of faith. In fact, the eternal moral law is kept by loving your neighbor (See Romans 13:8-10).


    ...
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2017
  10. Hank77

    Hank77 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    In what why do you believe we are implicated?
     
  11. GingerBeer

    GingerBeer Cool and refreshing with a kick!

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    In the same way that Levi tithed to Melchizedek in Abraham's tithe to Melchizedek. Hebrews explains that because Levi was "in Abraham's loins" he too tithed. The idea is that Adam's posterity was "in his loins" when Adam sinned and so all sinned. Only Adam actually chose to sin yet his posterity are implicated in his sin just as Levi is implicated in Abraham's tithe. Beyond this I cannot offer more because scripture offers no more.
    For this Melchiz'edek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him; and to him Abraham apportioned a tenth part of everything. He is first, by translation of his name, king of righteousness, and then he is also king of Salem, that is, king of peace. He is without father or mother or genealogy, and has neither beginning of days nor end of life, but resembling the Son of God he continues a priest for ever. See how great he is! Abraham the patriarch gave him a tithe of the spoils. And those descendants of Levi who receive the priestly office have a commandment in the law to take tithes from the people, that is, from their brethren, though these also are descended from Abraham. But this man who has not their genealogy received tithes from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. It is beyond dispute that the inferior is blessed by the superior. Here tithes are received by mortal men; there, by one of whom it is testified that he lives. One might even say that Levi himself, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, for he was still in the loins of his ancestor when Melchiz'edek met him.
    Hebrews 7:1-10
     
  12. Hank77

    Hank77 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Oh boy.
    Never mind.
     
  13. GingerBeer

    GingerBeer Cool and refreshing with a kick!

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    Do you dislike receiving an answer? Or is there something about the passage in Hebrews that troubles you?
     
  14. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    But the main reason a person holds to bad theology is that they haven't recognized it as bad. Expecting them to recognize as bad what they think is good, then, is silly. What would be better is to show the holder of bad theology why their theology is bad.

    As one poster has pointed out to you already, Job condemns himself:

    Job 40:1-4
    1 Moreover the Lord answered Job, and said:
    2 "Shall the one who contends with the Almighty correct Him? He who rebukes God, let him answer it."
    3 Then Job answered the Lord and said:
    4 "Behold, I am vile; What shall I answer You? I lay my hand over my mouth.


    Job 42:5-6
    5 "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees You.
    6 Therefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes."


    In whatever way Job was "perfect" it was not in the sense of utter sinlessness. Neither he nor God thought that. So, what was that you were saying about recognizing bad theology...?

    Who knows of what sins Enoch was guilty? One can be pleasing God without being sinlessly perfect. This was true of King David who, though an adulterer and murderer, was called a "man after God's own heart." (Ac. 13:22) It isn't entirely warranted, then, to assert that Enoch was morally perfect.

    Yes, they can. Be careful you don't end up an example of what you're criticizing. No one's theology and doctrine is entirely perfect, I think.
     
  15. Hammster

    Hammster I am the wretch in the song. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Job the perfect person?

    “Therefore I retract, And I repent in dust and ashes."”
    ‭‭Job‬ ‭42:6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

    Blameless? Yes. He repented. Perfect? No. He needed to repent.
     
  16. GingerBeer

    GingerBeer Cool and refreshing with a kick!

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    It would be silly to expect it of a person who has no one to instruct them or who refuses to receive instruction but such persons are not the ones who will willingly recognise bad theology. My thread is intended for everybody willing to be instructed (including myself) by other and by God (usually by means of others).
     
  17. GingerBeer

    GingerBeer Cool and refreshing with a kick!

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    What Job repents of is not sin but of speaking without knowledge (we might call it ignorance but using ignorance without the implication that Job was deliberately and carelessly uninformed). The passage makes it clear that Job repents in a similar way to God's repentance mentioned in the scriptures.
    And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do to his people.
    Exodus 32:14
    Thus Job says of himself
    Then Job answered the LORD: "I know that thou canst do all things, and that no purpose of thine can be thwarted.
    'Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?'
    Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.​
    'Hear, and I will speak; I will question you, and you declare to me.'
    I had heard of thee by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees thee; therefore I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes."​
    Job 42:1-6
    It was Satan who accused Job of sin and God who defended Job and allowed the testing of Job's integrity. At the end it is God who declares that Job spoke "what is true" while the others in the book did not. It was Job's "friends" of whom God demanded sacrifices for their sins and Job was the one who was to pray for them - he himself being guiltless by God's own decree.
    After the LORD had spoken these words to Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite: 'My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends; for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has. Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt-offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly; for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has done.' So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went and did what the LORD had told them; and the LORD accepted Job's prayer.
    Job 42:7-9
     
  18. GingerBeer

    GingerBeer Cool and refreshing with a kick!

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    What Job repents of is not sin but of speaking without knowledge (we might call it ignorance but using ignorance without the implication that Job was deliberately and carelessly uninformed).

    It was Satan who accused Job of sin and God who defended Job and allowed the testing of Job's integrity. At the end it is God who declares that Job spoke "what is true" while the others in the book did not. It was Job's "friends" of whom God demanded sacrifices for their sins and Job was the one who was to pray for them - he himself being guiltless by God's own decree.
    After the LORD had spoken these words to Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite: 'My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends; for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has. Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt-offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly; for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has done.' So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went and did what the LORD had told them; and the LORD accepted Job's prayer.
    Job 42:7-9
     
  19. GingerBeer

    GingerBeer Cool and refreshing with a kick!

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    Did Jesus sin - he certainly is one who lived and you say "everyone who has ever lived has sinned". The scriptures say
    For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who in every respect has been tested as we are, yet without sin.
    Hebrews 4:15
     
  20. PoetStorm

    PoetStorm Wanderer in the wilderness

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    An interesting post! I have to admit I had fallen for the Romans passage and fell right into that so this is eye opening.

    I'm interested to know your recommendations. For someone who is still new to the Word and has not read all books quite yet, and has trouble keeping it all in her head, how can one avoid falling into these traps and not know it? How can I avoid it?
     
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