Bad theology springs from bible selectivity.

[stuart lawrence]

Is biblical perfection sinless perfection?
I don't think so

 

[-V-]

I would think that if King David could be "a man after God's own heart" while being a murderer and adulterer, then it's possible for others to be "upright", "blameless", or "perfect" while still having committed a sin at some point.

 

[Hammster]

And Job knows he needs a Redeemer, someone to plead his case.

Why, if He's perfect?

 

[Halbhh]

And Job knows he needs a Redeemer, someone to plead his case.

Yes!

Job said so.

"I know that my redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand on the earth."
-- Job in chapter 19, v 25

One of the amazing things you find when you read through.

One of the earliest written books in all the Bible, and yet Job knows of his redeemer!!

A wonderful and powerful, powerful example of the value of the idea in title of this thread -- to gain from scripture, we ought to read through entire books.

And more --

26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!


Ergo, another big point -- already long, long ago, some people already knew there would be an afterlife!

 

[Apex]

So to counter bad theology (that some folks were sinless like Christ) it's good to understand how words are used, understand the context, and understand how the original authors meant for the original readers to understand.

This is 110% true! Context, context, context.

 

[Hank77]

Why, if He's perfect?

Exactly.

 

[chilehed]

....Every single individual human being has sinned (EXCLUDING original sin)...

That's another example of inaccurate theology, in that it implies that original sin is a sin that we, ourselves, commit.

Original Sin is a state into which we are born through no fault of our own, not an act of comission on our part.

 

[dqhall]

By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was attested as having pleased God. And without faith it is impossible to please him. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
Hebrews 11:5-6​

I found a selective reading contradicting Hebrews 11:5-6:

John 3:13 (WEB). No one has ascended into heaven, but he who descended out of heaven, the Son of Man, who is in heaven.

 

[disciple1]

An example of bad theology springing from selective bible reading follows:

Bad theology:

Every single individual human being has sinned (EXCLUDING original sin).​

Selective bible reading:

as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands, no one seeks for God. All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong; no one does good, not even one." "Their throat is an open grave, they use their tongues to deceive." "The venom of asps is under their lips." "Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness." "Their feet are swift to shed blood, in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they do not know." "There is no fear of God before their eyes." Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
Romans 3:10-20​

Antidote to selective bible reading:

Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. So we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
2 Corinthians 5:17-21

By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was attested as having pleased God. And without faith it is impossible to please him. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
Hebrews 11:5-6

There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was blameless and upright, one who feared God, and turned away from evil.
Job 1:1
...
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. The LORD said to Satan, "Whence have you come?" Satan answered the LORD, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it." And the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?" Then Satan answered the LORD, "Does Job fear God for nought? Hast thou not put a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? Thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. But put forth thy hand now, and touch all that he has, and he will curse thee to thy face." And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power; only upon himself do not put forth your hand." So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
Job 1:6-12​

Bad theology can be countered but first it must be recognised for what it is and then the antidote can be administered. Jesus knew no sin so it is both bad theology and bad hermeneutics to interpret the passage from Romans (which quotes a psalm) as teaching that every single individual who has ever lived has sinned. It ought to be noted that original sin does in fact implicate all the natural children of Eve and Adam but the Virgin birth of Jesus Christ excludes him from the category of "natural children of Eve and Adam" inasmuch as his Father is God. And the idea that all (excluding Christ) are implicated in original sin does not imply that all have committed sins themselves. Infants who die in infancy or who die before birth have committed no sins even though original sin implicates them. And since God himself testifies that Job was blameless & upright (more accurately "perfect and upright") it appears that the only one who accuses Job of sin is Satan. Yet some who adhere to bad theology follow the thinking of Satan and accuse Job of sin on the basis of the passage in the psalms that is quoted in Romans. Enoch is also accused of sin yet God says he was pleased with Enoch and "took him". "Took him" implying that God received Enoch into heaven without Enoch ever dying. What sins can Enoch be accused of if God himself received him?

Other examples of Bad Theology springing from selective reading of scripture can easily be cited. The example given above is one that ought to be obvious to any who read scripture more fully and with their wits and eyes fully operative.

​

selective bible reading

If your saying the bible has to be taken as a whole I agree, but if your saying faith alone is all you need I disagree, because faith has to express itself in love.
Matthew chapter 25 verses 31-46
When the Son of Man comes" in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. he will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me. then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and got visit you? The King will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me. Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.They also will answer, Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you? He will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me. Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

 

[GingerBeer]

That's another example of inaccurate theology, in that it implies that original sin is a sin that we, ourselves, commit.

Original Sin is a state into which we are born through no fault of our own, not an act of comission on our part.

What I wrote does not imply that original sin is an actual sin because actual sins are "acted out" by the sinner while original sin is "a sin of origin" meaning it is communicated by "natural generation". Original sin is also called "ancestral sin" because it is something inherited rather than earned (so to speak), a legacy albeit it a wicked legacy that none would want if offered the opportunity to forego it.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I found a selective reading contradicting Hebrews 11:5-6:

John 3:13 (WEB). No one has ascended into heaven, but he who descended out of heaven, the Son of Man, who is in heaven.

John3:13 is quite accurate. No one who died in OT times went straight to heaven upon death. In fact, no one went straight to heaven once the NC came into operation either!

 

[GingerBeer]

Job made sacrifices for atonement, even for his children.

Job sacrificed for his children, the passage does not say he sacrificed for his "own sins" does it. Check it in your bible.

And when the days of the feast had run their course, Job would send and sanctify them, and he would rise early in the morning and offer burnt offerings according to the number of them all; for Job said, "It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts." Thus Job did continually.
Job 1:5
​

 

[GingerBeer]

John3:13 is quite accurate. No one who died in OT times went straight to heaven upon death. In fact, no one went straight to heaven once the NC came into operation either!

Have you considered that "ascended to heaven" refers to a person ascending to heaven (by their own power) rather than being "taken to heaven" by God? And that being taken by God refers to God taking a person to heaven. So Christ's statement that no one has ascended to heaven except he who descended from heaven refers to Christ himself ascending to heaven by his own power just as he descended from heaven by his own power. It's worth a thought. Perhaps some study too. Let me know what you think, please.

 

[GingerBeer]

If your saying the bible has to be taken as a whole I agree, but if your saying faith alone is all you need I disagree, because faith has to express itself in love.

I did not say that "faith alone is all you need" because I do not believe that the scriptures teach that and consequently I do not believe it.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Have you considered that "ascended to heaven" refers to a person ascending to heaven (by their own power) rather than being "taken to heaven" by God? And that being taken by God refers to God taking a person to heaven. So Christ's statement that no one has ascended to heaven except he who descended from heaven refers to Christ himself ascending to heaven by his own power just as he descended from heaven by his own power. It's worth a thought. Perhaps some study too. Let me know what you think, please.

I think that's a rather far fetched notion!
There is so much scripture i could quote, but as I am on a mobile and cannot copy/Paste, hopefully one will suffice:

Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are hymaneus and philetus who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place and they destroy the faith of some
2tim2:17&18

 

[disciple1]

I did not say that "faith alone is all you need" because I do not believe that the scriptures teach that and consequently I do not believe it.

Can you say what your saying then, so I know, because you've got a lot of verses but you haven't said anything.

 

[Hank77]

Job sacrificed for his children, the passage does not say he sacrificed for his "own sins" does it. Check it in your bible.

And when the days of the feast had run their course, Job would send and sanctify them, and he would rise early in the morning and offer burnt offerings according to the number of them all; for Job said, "It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts." Thus Job did continually.
Job 1:5
​

My point was that Job knew about sacrifices for atonement and I had already mentioned that he knew he needed a Redeemer. Someone doesn't need a Redeemer if they have never sinned.
So surely if he made sacrifices to atone for his children because he suspected that they had sinned, he would have made them for himself as well.

 

[disciple1]

Job sacrificed for his children, the passage does not say he sacrificed for his "own sins" does it. Check it in your bible.

And when the days of the feast had run their course, Job would send and sanctify them, and he would rise early in the morning and offer burnt offerings according to the number of them all; for Job said, "It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts." Thus Job did continually.
Job 1:5
​

the passage does not say he sacrificed for his "own sins"

1 John chapter 1 verse 8
If anyone claims to be without sin they deceive themselves and the truth is not in them.
James chapter 2 verse 10
If anyone keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

 

[GingerBeer]

Can you say what your saying then, so I know, because you've got a lot of verses but you haven't said anything.

I said:
Bad theology can be countered but first it must be recognised for what it is and then the antidote can be administered. Jesus knew no sin so it is both bad theology and bad hermeneutics to interpret the passage from Romans (which quotes a psalm) as teaching that every single individual who has ever lived has sinned. It ought to be noted that original sin does in fact implicate all the natural children of Eve and Adam but the Virgin birth of Jesus Christ excludes him from the category of "natural children of Eve and Adam" inasmuch as his Father is God. And the idea that all (excluding Christ) are implicated in original sin does not imply that all have committed sins themselves. Infants who die in infancy or who die before birth have committed no sins even though original sin implicates them. And since God himself testifies that Job was blameless & upright (more accurately "perfect and upright") it appears that the only one who accuses Job of sin is Satan. Yet some who adhere to bad theology follow the thinking of Satan and accuse Job of sin on the basis of the passage in the psalms that is quoted in Romans. Enoch is also accused of sin yet God says he was pleased with Enoch and "took him". "Took him" implying that God received Enoch into heaven without Enoch ever dying. What sins can Enoch be accused of if God himself received him?

Other examples of Bad Theology springing from selective reading of scripture can easily be cited. The example given above is one that ought to be obvious to any who read scripture more fully and with their wits and eyes fully operative.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I said:
Bad theology can be countered but first it must be recognised for what it is and then the antidote can be administered. Jesus knew no sin so it is both bad theology and bad hermeneutics to interpret the passage from Romans (which quotes a psalm) as teaching that every single individual who has ever lived has sinned. It ought to be noted that original sin does in fact implicate all the natural children of Eve and Adam but the Virgin birth of Jesus Christ excludes him from the category of "natural children of Eve and Adam" inasmuch as his Father is God. And the idea that all (excluding Christ) are implicated in original sin does not imply that all have committed sins themselves. Infants who die in infancy or who die before birth have committed no sins even though original sin implicates them. And since God himself testifies that Job was blameless & upright (more accurately "perfect and upright") it appears that the only one who accuses Job of sin is Satan. Yet some who adhere to bad theology follow the thinking of Satan and accuse Job of sin on the basis of the passage in the psalms that is quoted in Romans. Enoch is also accused of sin yet God says he was pleased with Enoch and "took him". "Took him" implying that God received Enoch into heaven without Enoch ever dying. What sins can Enoch be accused of if God himself received him?

Other examples of Bad Theology springing from selective reading of scripture can easily be cited. The example given above is one that ought to be obvious to any who read scripture more fully and with their wits and eyes fully operative.

You do appreciate, that in order for a person never to commit sin, they cannot have even one impure thought the whole of their life from puberty. They can never look at a woman with lust in their eye. They must faultlessly love those they come into contact with, including those who may hate, malign, persecute or slander them.