Do Believe Backsliding Means

  • Fallen from Grace

  • Not measuring up

  • Turning from God

  • For Israel

  • Not sure

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Feb 19, 2002
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Dear Johnr7;

Nice to hear from you again,

1. (Matthew 10:22) "Those who endure till the end" is refering to those left behind in the tribulation period which was suppose to come in their day but was postphoned due to Israel rejecting Jesus and bring in the Gentiles. (Revelation 3:8-12) Another example of what happens when we don't "Rightly divide" (2 Timothy 2:15) Like saying Today's children should be stoned for disobeying parents. (Leviticus 20:9)

2. "The only way we can be saved is for God to finish the work in our lives" Your kidding right? What denomination taught you that? Not trying to down you, just angry at religious deceivers who confuse God's children. For one thing we can never be more saved then we are having the holy Spirit, (Ephesians 1:13) We were saved the moment we believed Jesus died for all our sins and rose for our justification. We will never be good enough to earn merit. Salvation is not our gift to God but His gift to us. God bless! and keep seeking answers.
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Feb 19, 2002
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Dear Debbie;

I asked you for a scripture in hopes of less confusion. Personally all I need to know about any "Defilement" I may commit is that I was charged , found guilty, and Jesus paid my fine over 2000 years ago and will never be charged twice for the same crime. And I try not to sin out of love and appreciation for what He did for me. God bless! keep searching!
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Feb 19, 2002
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Dear Psalms22.3'

Not truing to beat anyone up simply being blunt in defending truth. Usually children view correction as punishment.

You said, Jesus dying didn't mean "I can not turn away by my own choice" and was not "Backed by the bible" Not true!

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. (Galatians 2:21)

I will not impose backsliding in the rest of your post where you have made it clear you will never believe once saved always saved.
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you are truely correct, no i will never believe that.
and i think ive given good enough reason to show why.
well, man, if your are correct, you should be able to prove it, as you certainly have not.
:p :p :p :p :p

romans 828
narrow minded?
well, it is true, ill never believe that because it simply doesnt make sense to me, and i dont find it taught in scripture in the least. you take my scriptures and say WELL, THAT WASNT WRITTEN TO US (when they clearly are). but as far as i can tell you dont have the least bit of scripture to give even the smallest hint that a person cant lose salvation, the ones you give certainly dont mean you cant lose it.
yeah god loves us eternally, yeah he died once for all, which is the majority of scripture that many use to back that belief. but neither of those mean a person cant throw away their salvation.
showing me scripture would be a waste of time?
well man, if you know what your talking about, you should be able to prove it. and faith comes through hearing the word, the word wont return void, show me.
well, where does my teaching contradict the bible?
i dont know, what bible are you reading?

lets say,
that i (a saved person, as much saved as anyone of you)
choose to strap a bomb to myself, walk to middle of the biggest mall i can find, and blow it up. and i go down shouting "TO HELL WITH JESUS! JESUS IS A *****!"

and dont say, "well then you werent ever really saved in the first place" cus you couldnt possibly know that.
and it is truely possible for this to happen, becuase even though we are saved, our carnal minds are still in us, and our flesh is still upon us, both of those are hostil to god and cannot do his will. even the most saved person, who lets his flesh overcome him can slip into any manner of sin, and even fall away, ive seen it happen.
they WERE saved, but they let thier flesh overcome them.
if christians can sin, as they clealy do. then they can do all manner of sin.
i dont see why people say "A REAL CHRISTIAN WOULDNT DO THAT!" and claim those who do werent really saved.

ill tell a TRUE story,
i once had a friend named doug. as far as i can tell, he loved god, wanted to serve god with all his heart. he was called into the ministry, god had told him he would be a preacher before many people. this was confirmed in more than one person. yet, sadly,
for some reason i do not know, he chose to go to the georgia mall, go to the 3rd story level, and jump. he fell right in front of chick filet in the eating place and he died. i wont describe the rest.
but, the point is, this was my friend, who ill boldly stand i tell ALL OF YOU TO SHUT UP, if you say he wasnt saved, because i knew him personally, i know he was, by everything he did. but somehow, he messed up. and obviously no longer hoped in god to free him from whatever it was he was struggling with. my freind doug, is a clear picture.
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Ben johnson

Feb 9, 2002
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What does "backsliding" MEAN? Does it not mean "living in a practicingly-sinninly-fashion"? Isn't "backslidden", one who IS sinning practicingly? If you believe in "backslidden-but-still-saved", how do you handle passages like, Heb10:26, 1Cor6:9ff, Gal5?

(I would quote them, but there's someone yelling "The library is CLOSED please LEAVE!)

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you said the tribulation has been postponed?
how is this?
you said,
"the tribulation period which was suppose to come in their day but was postphoned due to Israel rejecting Jesus and bring in the Gentiles."

so was jesus not supposed to be crucified?
"he was crucified SINCE the foundation of the world" according to the bible. he came for no other purpose but to die, and create a new law. jesus knew he was going to die, the father knew he would die. JESUS EVEN TOLD PILATE THAT UNLESS THE FATHER HAD GIVEN JESUS OVER TO HIM, THAT HE WOULD NOT HAVE POWER OVER HIM. the whole death of jesus was willed and orchestrated by the father. judas ischariot betraying jesus, was prophicied about by david!
isreal did refuse him, but jesus came to die, and he knew that would happen, it was prophicied that judas would turn him over, and that he would die.

the tribulation was supposed to come in their day?
due to isreal rejecting jesus?
well, we both know that god knew isreal would reject jesus, this wasnt something out of the will of god, that messed up gods plans.
so, if the tribulation was supposed to have happened along time ago, in the years that jesus walked the earth, then your saying the PENTECOST EXPERIENCE AND THE WHOLE BOOK OF ACTS AND LATER BOOKS WERENT SUPPOSE TO HAPPEN?
is that correct?
if so, then why was that outpouring prophicied about by the prophet Joel?
this incident AFTER JESUS' DEATH was intended to happen as well.

you dont think the gentiles were supposed to go to heavon?
is that correct?
if so,
then why did joel prophecy that He would pour His spirit out upon "ALL" flesh? this was also intended by god.

i dont think i know it all, i dont think im always right, there are just somethings that have gotten so deep within me that it would take moving heavon and earth to change them, like JESUS BEING THE REAL SON OF GOD for example.
once saved always saved being a lie is something i believe almost as strongly.
but by all means, show me why you believe this, if the bible truely teaches it i want to know, and if it does, then ill change. but i must admit i dont believe it does, and i dont believe youll ever prove that to me.
but man, i do have a heart ready and willing to hear the TRUTH.
show me.
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Salvation is BELIEVING in Jesus Christ.

Salvation is trusting or believing in, by faith, that Jesus Christ paid for your sins with His blood on the cross of Calvary.

"He that BELIEVETH on the Son hath everlasting life:. . ." John 3:36

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

We are NOT saved by WORKS.

The Bible makes it clear that OUR WORKS has nothing whatsoever to do with our salvation.

We don't receive it by our works — and we don't keep it by our works!

" NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,. . ." Titus 3:5

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8,9

Salvation is a FREE GIFT.

Salvation is the free gift of God. If we had to work to keep it — it would not be a free gift — and God would be a liar!

". . . the GIFT of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23

". . .by the righteousness of one THE FREE GIFT came upon all men unto justification of life." Romans 5:18

Salvation is a NEW BIRTH.

Salvation is not enduring or a process, but an event in time. Salvation is a NEW BIRTH. Just as your first birth happened on a certain time and day, so does the second birth.

"(For he saith, I have heard thee in a TIME accepted, and in THE DAY OF SALVATION have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted TIME; behold, now is THE DAY OF SALVATION.)" 2 Corinthians 6:2

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3

"Being BORN AGAIN, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." 1 Peter 1:23
You become a CHILD OF GOD.

Once you are born again SPIRITUALLY — you become a child of God.

"Beloved, NOW are we the SONS OF GOD, . . ." 1 John 3:2

"For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of ADOPTION, whereby we cry, Abba, FATHER." Romans 8:15
Nothing can SEPARATE us from our Father.

Just as nothing can "negate" your physical birth, nothing can "negate" your spiritual birth.

My children will always be my children. We may have troubled times. Our fellowship may be broken, but our relationship can never be broken. They will always be my children. Nothing or nobody can change that! And once you are born again spiritually — God becomes your Father — nothing or nobody can change that! Your fellowship may be broken, but your relationship can never be broken!

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, SHALL BE ABLE TO SEPARATE US from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38

"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." John 10:29
Jesus will NEVER leave us.

Jesus promised He will never leave us. Jesus could not say this if there was even a chance of losing our salvation.

". . .for he hath said, I WILL NEVER LEAVE THEE, nor forsake thee." Hebrews 13:5

". . . and, lo, I am with you ALWAY, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Matthew 28:20
We already HAVE eternal life.

When the Bible speaks of possessing eternal life, it speaks in the present tense (hath, have, etc.) — SOMETHING WE ALREADY HAVE! If we had to work or endure to keep our salvation, this could not be true.

"He that believeth on the Son HATH EVERLASTING LIFE:.. ." John 3:36

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE,. . ." 1 John 5:13

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH EVERLASTING LIFE,. . ." John 5:24
Jesus will NOT cast you out.

". . . him that cometh to me I WILL IN NO WISE CAST OUT." John 6:37
We are COMPLETE in Jesus Christ.

"And ye are COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the head of all principality and power:" Colossians 2:10

We are "perfected for ever" by Jesus Christ. How could the Lord say such a bold statement if we had to earn or keep our salvation?

"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL. . . For by one offering he hath PERFECTED FOR EVER them that are sanctified." Hebrews 10:10,14
We are PRESERVED in Christ Jesus.

"Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED IN JESUS CHRIST, and called:" Jude 1

"And THE LORD. . . WILL PRESERVE ME unto his heavenly kingdom:. . ." 2 Timothy 4:18
We are KEPT by the POWER of God.

"Who are KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1 Peter 1:5

"Now unto him that is able TO KEEP YOU from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy," Jude 24
We are saved to the UTTERMOST.

"Wherefore he is able also to save them to the UTTERMOST that come unto God by him,. . ." Hebrews 7:25
We are SEALED until the day of redemption.

"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby YE ARE SEALED unto the day of redemption." Ephesians 4:30

". . .after that ye believed, YE WERE SEALED with that holy Spirit of promise," Ephesians 1:13

What about the BACKSLIDER?

What about the "backslider" or somebody that forsakes the Lord? The Bible says he will suffer loss (rewards, etc.) — but he himself shall be saved!

"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire." 1 Corinthians 3:11-15
We become the BODY OF CHRIST.

(*Note: I believe a perfect example of this is the prodigal son. He NEVER stopped being the son, he simply missed out on the blessings. He took a prodigal journey, but forever, the father waited for him to come back, and when he did, there was celebration!!! Further, I gave this example before. When my child crosses the street, while he may try to let go of my hand, I never let go of his, and no matter where he goes, he is still my son.)

"For we are MEMBERS OF HIS BODY, of his flesh, and of his bones." Ephesians 5:30

"Now ye are the BODY OF CHRIST, and members in particular." 1 Corinthians 12:18

What if we later — BELIEVE NOT?

Our salvation is so secure — even if we BELIEVE NOT after we're saved, because we become part of Him (the body of Christ), ". . .yet he abideth faithful: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF."

"If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF." 2 Timothy 2:13
But what if I sin an awful sin?

1 Corinthians 5 reports of an awful sin in the church. And even though Paul commands ". . . To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh" — Paul still speaks of that person being saved — ". . .that the spirit MAY BE SAVED. . ."

"It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. . .To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit MAY BE SAVED in the day of the Lord Jesus." 1 Corinthians 5:1,5
To lose your salvation — makes God a LIAR.

With all the PROMISES from God to KEEP you, to SAVE you, to PRESERVE you — to even suggest you could lose your salvation — is to call God a LIAR!
". . .he that BELIEVETH NOT GOD hath made him a LIAR; . . ." 1 John 5:10
Why do people doubt their salvation?

They trust in feelings rather than the word of God.

"He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool:. . ." Proverbs 28:26
They are confused by the simplicity of salvation.

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from THE SIMPLICITY that is in Christ." 2 Corinthians 11:3
They trust in tradition or church teachings rather than the word of God.

"Making the word of God of none effect through your TRADITION,. . ." Mark 7:13
They trust in their own righteousness.

". . . and all OUR RIGHTEOUSNESSES are as filthy rags;. . ." Isaiah 64:6
They have NEVER been saved.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;. . ." Matthew 7:21

----Terry Watkins
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i guess this will be a long one.

1.i agree that we arent saved by works.
the bible says that works dont save you, it does not say works cant cancel it.
2.i do not think we must work to keep it, i simply say that it can be thrown away.
3. i agree it is a change, and i agree we are saved now.
4. that doesnt mean nothing can seperate you from him.
but yes, it does mean you have no need to fear being lost, but being lost is still your choice. said
"Just as nothing can "negate" your physical birth, nothing can "negate" your spiritual birth."
good theory, but it isnt neccesarily true.
many people in the bible talked about names being removed from the book of life from exodus, psalms to revelations.
sin kills, before and after salvation.
hebrews 10.25
for if we sin willfully, having received the knowlegde of the the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.BUT A CERTAIN FEARFUL LOOKING FOR OF JUDGMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION...

its not that god disowns his children, but that sin must be punished. if you return to sin, it is no longer covered or done away with, and sin uncovered or unremoved must be punished.
thats why paul said it is so important to encourage love and good works as we see the day aproaching, to keep each other from going back.
6. the love of god never was and never will be the equivalent of salvation. god loves all, but are all saved? no, thus being loved by god isnt grounds to say that your safe.
7. i agree, no one can pull you away from god. but i say that you can willfully choose to leave him behind. choosing death. but no, no one one pull you away. its all up to you.
8. the fact that jesus WILL NEVER LEAVE YOU, doesnt contradict the fact that you can leave him. he didnt leave, you left. no, jesus will never forsake you, but you can choose to leave him. god never forsook adam, but adam chose to forsake him.
9. he is with you eternally, as long as you stay within the conditions of salvation.
10. yes, i may have eternal life within my grip, but even that i can choose to do away with.

anyway, to make this a little shorter,
i agree with most everyting you said, yes, we have all these most wonderful things in christ! but if we fail to no longer meet the conditions set for salvation, then no we no longer have the rewards.
these conditions arent works, but they are accepting, believing and trusting in him.
as you stated, that is what saves us.
so, what if we no longer accept jesus as lord, believe or trust in him? we fail to meet those conditions, thus we can not partake of the benefits.

"And ye are COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the head of all principality and power:" Colossians 2:10
this doesnt mean we are perfected forever, it can last forever, but it only lasts as long as we are in him, it doesnt imply that we cannot be removed from him.

you posted
"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL. . . For by one offering he hath PERFECTED FOR EVER them that are sanctified." Hebrews 10:10,14
yeah, THEM THAT ARE SANCTIFIED. thats a condition.

i already showed how being SEALED doesnt mean that hes set your salvation in concrete or that it cant be changed. but simply that YES, AS LONG AS THE HOLYSPIRIT IS SEALING YOU, YEP, YOUR SAFE.

"Who are KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1 Peter 1:5
yeah, but if what if we cast off faith in jesus?
again, its a condition.

your part about the backslider
you posted 1 Corinthians 3:11-15.
you also said
"What about the "backslider" or somebody that forsakes the Lord?"

NO ONE IN THAT VERSE FORSOOK THE LORD, they built UP FROM THE FOUNDATION OF JESUS CHRIST, they didnt not forsake that foundation, thus, these arent people who forsook god.
its talking about the ministries and works of christians being tried. not people who forsook jesus.
if your building up from the foundation of jesus, you have not forsook jesus.
your question and answer do not fit together.

again, i dont think your analogy of your son always being your son is an accurate defense.
there are conditions of being the son of god, like believing unto salvation, THE RIGHTOUSE LIVE BY FAITH so we keep living in christ by faith in him to save us. but that is a condition.
your child was born to you without condition. it is not the same. simply because your son will always be your son, doesnt mean we will always be gods sons and daughters.

and again, there are conditions to being grafted into the body of christ, becoming part of the body. it is not the same as simply being born that way without condition.
if we later fail to meet these conditions we will be removed.

"If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF." 2 Timothy 2:13
well, read the verse right before that.
"if we deny him, also will he deny us"
verse 11-13 are all speaking about people whom god calls HIMSELF in verse 13.
yet, it clearly says, they can be denied.
falling down in faith, losing faith, we all know we go through times of little faith. like peter and others.
but this isnt the same as utterly throwing away, abolishing our faith in jesus. denying him, and being denied.

you said
Paul still speaks of that person being saved — ". . .that the spirit MAY BE SAVED. . ."

MAY is about the same word as MIGHT. it doenst say this person is saved, it speaks of the possibility of his spirit being saved, not that it is saved.
a person can lose salvation and return again, as many times as neccesary.
but i do not think AN AWEFUL SIN as you said, would remove us from salvation anyway. we could eventually deny him and choosing aweful sins are steps towards denying him, but i dont think doing any awful sin removes salvation. not sleeping with your fathers wife anyway. though, that is pretty bad, and uhhh nasty.

i believe every scripture you posted, but certainly not what you think they mean sometimes.
most every blessing from god you talked about was conditionary. and i am not trusting in my own rightousness but my faithfullness to my faith in him.
i am not making salvation complicated at all, simply saying you can choose to do away with it.
which is something no one has given evidence to say isnt true.

terry watkins?
my uncles name is TERRY WATKINS.
your probly not the same person, but, do you perhapes know LEE MYERS? SON OF GORDON AND LESLIE MYERS?

you said you were female, so, it wouldnt make sense anyway, im just curious about the name.

why do you not reply to me?
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Feb 19, 2002
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Dear Salms22.3

Why do you ask me why I don't answer you when I already told you why? To give you the benefit of the doubt I'll say, It's because you made it very clear that you would never believe in eternal salvation no matter what. So it would be a waste of both our time that could be given to the unsaved and those seeking truth. Answering over 15 posts containing complex questions with one finger because of being unable to type is to precious to waste.
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Hello Psalm 22.3

The sad part about this is that you have come into this with a thought in your head that you will NEVER believe otherwise. There are many things that I USED to believe, but once confronted with truth, discovered that I was wrong.

Nevertheless, may God bless you. I am sorry to see such wonderful Christians living in bondage...


P.S. Nope, I don't know those people...
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Feb 16, 2002
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Hi Psalm 22.3,

I must agree with Romans828 & aforchrist33. Christ said that nothing can pull the elect from God's hand, I would have to say that that included the elect themselves. You can't be part of the elect one day, and then not the next. Your argument would lead to "yesterday I was saved, but not part of the elect. That's because God knew I wouldn't be saved tomorrow." Doesn't that fail the Common Sense test? You're building too many conditionals into plain scripture. Sort of like telling me there's an invisible cat on the chair - you've gone to too much trouble - there just t'ain't no cat, friend, proof or no.

Anyway, I'm glad you're saved from here to eternity, whether you know it or not! :hug:

God's blessings upon you,
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Feb 19, 2002
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Dear irmorganjr;


Great comments on eternal security. I might also add "Salvation is not probation" or we would have to change the lyrics of amazing grace to "I once was lost but now I'm on probation. God bless, and keep on defending truth through "Rightly dividing" (2 Timothy 2:15) Please visit our bible lesson on backsliding, would love feedback.
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