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Bachmann's Scientific Illiteracy.

Discussion in 'American Politics' started by Nathan Poe, Sep 13, 2011.

  1. JBJoe

    JBJoe Regular Member

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    Is that what we're talking about along this thread?

    Oh, it isn't. You just changed the subject... AGAIN.
     
  2. USincognito

    USincognito Milk-Bones for Cerberus is a cool album name Supporter

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    Were they scientifically accurate labels? If not, then why even Godwin the thread with this?

    Non-sequitor. If humans have no effect on the Sun, how does that in any way inform us on whether we have an influence on the climate of the Earth.

    And this "how can insignificant humans effect something so massive as the earth" meme is sceintifically naive. Ever hear of blue-green algae? Ever year of stromatolites? Ever hear of nuclear winter?
     
  3. MachZer0

    MachZer0 Caught Between Barack and a Hard Place

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    Yes. See the OP

    No, I didn't change the subject. :wave:
     
  4. USincognito

    USincognito Milk-Bones for Cerberus is a cool album name Supporter

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    Really... oh, aisy beat me to it. And the claims of complictions have been overstated by social conservatives trying to use the same scare tactics that Anti-vaxxer woos do.

     
  5. JBJoe

    JBJoe Regular Member

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    How would she make a better choice? I assume you have some reliable way of detecting a man who is a virgin when married and will remain monogamous throughout. I'm sure women the world over would love to have this information.

    Unless you have a way to remove the risk of being infected by a partner - which I'm very curious to hear - I can see no logical extension of your argument except that engaging in any sexual activity is a risky behavior for which one should accept the consequences for regardless of whether or not it is inside of marriage.

    In the case of these particular strains of HPV, the risk is borne entirely by women who will pay with their sexual and reproductive health and sometimes even their lives. 12,280 women suffered through cervical cancer in 2007 and 4,021 died from it. There is an average of 6 confirmed deaths per year following HPV vaccinations.
     
  6. MachZer0

    MachZer0 Caught Between Barack and a Hard Place

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    How about if she asks him about his experiences?
     
  7. Redac

    Redac Regular Member

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    Knowing that someone slept around in high school should be grounds not to marry them? Even if they're "saved" and haven't had sex since doing so?

    Heck, what if he just lies?
     
  8. USincognito

    USincognito Milk-Bones for Cerberus is a cool album name Supporter

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    So we're moving beyond the morality angle to the Big Pharma CT angle?

    Your last sentence is correct in fact, but not sentiment. HPV is different from other viral diseases like herpes or bacterial and treated diseases like chlamydia. Those STDs aren't carcinogens and/or are curable.

    Agreed.

    Haven't you seen by now? That's his M0.
     
  9. Nathan Poe

    Nathan Poe Well-Known Member

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    There's a professor in Minnesota who's got $10,000 that says she did.
     
  10. Wolseley

    Wolseley Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu

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    You don't understand, Mach. Since the advent of (trumpet flourish) Obamacare!™, the risks that any given individual take are the problem of everyone, since we're all paying for the treatment needed to counteract his or her bad choices. Under (trumpet flourish) Obamacare!™, we need to make sure that our friends and neighbors understand that cigarette smoking, eating fast food, and bike riding without kneepads and a helmet can no longer be tolerated, because those behaviors lead to injuries which cost the taxpayers money, and we all suffer as a result. Probably eventually we'll have to also outlaw mountain climbing, race car driving, horseback riding, and swimming in salt water, because those are risky, too, and we don't want to strain the fragile medico-economic system provided to us by (trumpet flourish) Obamacare!™.

    There are two exemptions to (trumpet flourish) Obamacare!™, however. Teenagers going into the bushes and boffing like rabbits are exempt, because we all know they're incapable of controlling themselves, so we just have to allow them to engage in the Horizontal Bop whenever the mood strikes them, and of course the Landed Nobility (aka Congress) are exempt, because they have Decreed From On High that they don't have to participate in (trumpet flourish) Obamacare!™ like the rest of us unwashed mortals.

    What a great country we live in!
     
  11. RedDead1981

    RedDead1981 Prayer is beautiful when it's sincere

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    .
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2011
  12. Psudopod

    Psudopod Godspeed, Spacebat

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    Which is exactly the same as insurance: you're spreading the risk and the cost of an individual over a larger group. The difference with a public system is that you take out the profit, and you don't deny people access to healthcare on the basis of their income or current health. And yes, it puts an obligation on the state to encourage people to be healthy, but then this is in everyone's interest on a purely selfish financal basis because a healthy person is more likely to be a productive person and therefore paying tax into the system. It also means you don't write off a person because they've made a foolish mistake in their past.

    All of which is getting off the topic of Michelle Bachmann and her poor scientific thinking.
     
  13. chaz345

    chaz345 Well-Known Member

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    Given the influence that such companies have on the "science" proving the safety and need for their products, and their profit motive, it's a relevant point isn't it? How many drugs recently have been approved only to be pulled within a couple of years due to unacceptable side effects? Isn't it naive to think that vaccines are immune(pun intended) to this problem?
     
  14. Psudopod

    Psudopod Godspeed, Spacebat

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    They have no influence on science. They can influence what data is published, but they can't change the facts. There is a problem with negative results not being publish from intial trials, it's part of the problem of profit in healthcare. But there are options for addressing this outside the influence of the companys, such as making a regester of all trials and forcing a miminal level of data to be published, even if the study shows the drug is ineffective.

    Negative effects will be shown though, through patients reporting side-effects. Anf given how long mass vaccination has been around, and how many chilldren have been vaccinated, we've got good numbers for assessing possible risks.
     
  15. MachZer0

    MachZer0 Caught Between Barack and a Hard Place

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    Either not to marry him or willing to take the risk
    I thought in our scenario he was supposed to be a Christian. regardless, if he lies, does that justify the state now becoming responsible to protect us from ourselves. What other lies would you expect the state to compensate for? If he lied to her and told her he had 10 rental properties in various states, would you expect the state to make sure she had commensurate financial holdings?
     
  16. MachZer0

    MachZer0 Caught Between Barack and a Hard Place

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    No there isn't.
     
  17. Nathan Poe

    Nathan Poe Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough -- the $10,000 offer is from a former Minnesota professor, who is now who is now director of the University of Pennsylvania Center for Bioethics.
     
  18. DaisyDay

    DaisyDay blind squirrel

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    A woman could marry a virgin who could still get the virus after the wedding day and pass it on. Wouldn't it be a lot more prudent to get the vaccine before having sex with anyone including a husband? Why accept the risk of cancer via a sexually transmitted virus when the vaccine is available?

    Yeah, in our scenario he is a Christian, but a flawed one.

    Public health and communicable disease are generally accepted as state's interest.

    What compensation? We're talking about an ounce of prevention provided by the state.

    That makes no sense in this context.
     
  19. Redac

    Redac Regular Member

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    Christians can and do lie, for various reasons. This may have been a lie of omission, for example. No one is perfect.

    In this case, it's about preventing a communicable, carcinogenic disease from being passed on to someone who did everything right.

    It's generally in the state's interest to not let people get sick.

    Not a proper analogy, and thus irrelevant.
     
  20. chaz345

    chaz345 Well-Known Member

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    They have HUGE influence over the FDA testing and approval process which is supposed to be scientific but which is more political in nature.
     
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