Babylon of Revelation 17-18 was Jerusalem/unfaithful Israel

[Truth7t7]

No it wasn't it was still future when Jesus gave the Olivet,
Antiochus was a He and it was a They that were to place the AOD. (The Romans)

Do you believe in a future second coming of Jesus Christ, Matthew 24:29-31?

Do you believe in a future resurrrction of the believer, 1 Corinthians 15:52-54

Do you believe in a future eternal kingdom Revelation 21:1-5?

 

[Douggg]

There were two actors on the stage at that time, Antiochus as "The ships of Chittim" the Romans. It was they who were the "They". Antioch desecrated the temple but he didn't desolate it. It was reconsecrated exactly three years to the day after the desecration. That doesn't fit any of the time periods givem.

The Romans allowed the Jews to conduct their temple operations and it was not till the Jewish revolts that lead to the 70 AD destruction of the temple - that the temple was destroyed. Desolation means essentially empty. In the case of the temple being desolate, it means that there will be no worship and praise of the One True God during that time.

What Antiochus did in placing the statue of Zeus in the temple previewed what the end times abomination would be. Not that Antiochus fulfilled the abomination of desolation which Jesus spoke of to take place in the future.

How can a Roman Antichrist be King of Israel?

David, a better way to think of the person is as the arch villain of the end times - instead of using the term "Antichrist" in a blanket fashion. The person is only the Antichrist for the time he is in the role of being the King of Israel. The term Christ itself is associated with being "the" messiah, the promised great King of Israel. Take a look at John 12:13 And Mark 15:32. The Antichrist will come in his own name - meaning not the one which God sent.

The person will be a Roman, in that he will be descended from the Julio-Claudian clan - the Caesar family. Where exactly he will be borne and raised - I don't think there is any way of knowing.

The first five kings of the seven kings in Revelation 17:10 were Julius Caesar, August Caesar, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius. King six was Nero. Nero was the last of the Julio-Claudians, a matter of historical record..

The little horn person will be the 7th king of that family bloodline.
______________________________________________________________________________

He will also be a Jew. Most people outside of Judaism are not aware that to be a Jew - a person's mother has to be a Jew, which seems counter-intuitive to thinking it would go by the father having to be a Jew. But the father does not have to be a Jew, for a person to be a Jew.

The reason for this in part, goes back to the days of Solomon, a Jew. Solomon had many wives from the surrounding peoples - which those wives brought with them their idols - which got set up all over Israel and the result was many of the Jews got into idol worship. And the Babylonian captivity.

Following the Babylonian captivity and the return of Jews to Jerusalem, Ezra and Nehemiah were shocked that many of the caretaker Jews had taken foreign wives and had children by them. So there was a big meeting, in which those Jews were shamed for having done the same thing that Solomon did that started all the trouble.

Shamed, those Jews sent their wives and children by them away. This is recorded in Ezra 9-10. Here are some of the highlighted verses...

Ezra 9
10 And now, O our God, what shall we say after this? for we have forsaken thy commandments,

11 Which thou hast commanded by thy servants the prophets, saying, The land, unto which ye go to possess it, is an unclean land with the filthiness of the people of the lands, with their abominations, which have filled it from one end to another with their uncleanness.

12 Now therefore give not your daughters unto their sons, neither take their daughters unto your sons, nor seek their peace or their wealth for ever: that ye may be strong, and eat the good of the land, and leave it for an inheritance to your children for ever.


Ezra 10
2 And Shechaniah the son of Jehiel, one of the sons of Elam, answered and said unto Ezra, We have trespassed against our God, and have taken strange wives of the people of the land: yet now there is hope in Israel concerning this thing.

3 Now therefore let us make a covenant with our God to put away all the wives, and such as are born of them, according to the counsel of my lord, and of those that tremble at the commandment of our God; and let it be done according to the law.

10 And Ezra the priest stood up, and said unto them, Ye have transgressed, and have taken strange wives, to increase the trespass of Israel.

11 Now therefore make confession unto the LORD God of your fathers, and do his pleasure: and separate yourselves from the people of the land, and from the strange wives.

12 Then all the congregation answered and said with a loud voice, As thou hast said, so must we do.

 

[Postvieww]

I am here to learn. Will someone in plain talk, not speaking in riddles and asking leading questions, explain for me how the historical view of much of Daniel fits into this chapter?

I am in no way saying none of Daniel is historical.


Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

What time is “at that time”? Is the “time of trouble” here past or future and why? Who are those delivered that are "written in the book"?

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Is this the resurrection or not?

3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

What end is referred to here? Explain.

5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.

6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

What is this time,times and an half? What are all these things that shall be finished?

8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

End of what? What is the time of the end in this context?

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

In the context of this chapter how do we place this event in the past? Or do we?

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

“the end be” What end is referred to here? What does “end of the days” mean here?

 

[Davy]

I am here to learn. Will someone in plain talk, not speaking in riddles and asking leading questions, explain for me how the historical view of much of Daniel fits into this chapter?

I am in no way saying none of Daniel is historical.


Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

What time is “at that time”? Is the “time of trouble” here past or future and why? Who are those delivered that are "written in the book"?

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Is this the resurrection or not?

3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

What end is referred to here? Explain.

5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.

6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

What is this time,times and an half? What are all these things that shall be finished?

8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

End of what? What is the time of the end in this context?

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

In the context of this chapter how do we place this event in the past? Or do we?

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

“the end be” What end is referred to here? What does “end of the days” mean here?

Clearly those against the simplicity of those Scriptures about the end of this world are on an agenda of men, either knowingly or unknowingly. Daniel 12:1 is definitely about the time of "great tribulation" that Jesus foretold for the end of this world in Matthew 24. But how does one get them to understand that on a forum with moderators that are going to allow them to push men's ideas as part of today's political correctness fairness policy?

This is why I'm just thinking of bowing out of Christian forums altogether, because there's too much opportunity for propaganda to come in here and muddy the waters of even the simple things written in God's Word.

 

[Douggg]

But how does one get them to understand that on a forum with moderators that are going to allow them to push men's ideas as part of today's political correctness fairness policy?

"political correctness fairness policy" ? You must mean something else.

 

[Postvieww]

Clearly those against the simplicity of those Scriptures about the end of this world are on an agenda of men, either knowingly or unknowingly. Daniel 12:1 is definitely about the time of "great tribulation" that Jesus foretold for the end of this world in Matthew 24. But how does one get them to understand that on a forum with moderators that are going to allow them to push men's ideas as part of today's political correctness fairness policy?

This is why I'm just thinking of bowing out of Christian forums altogether, because there's too much opportunity for propaganda to come in here and muddy the waters of even the simple things written in God's Word.

My agenda is to make some sense out of Daniel what is history and what is not. Sorry that is not worthy of your time.

 

[Douggg]

My agenda is to make some sense out of Daniel what is history and what is not. Sorry that is not worthy of your time.

I would suggest Daniel 11 is historic to up to the time of the Maccabees in Daniel 11:34.

Daniel 11:33-35 is transitional over the past 2000 years, to the end times.

Then Daniel 11:36 is end times and corresponds to the beginning of the Day of the Lord near the middle of the seven years.

Then Daniel 11:40-45 is end times near the end of the seven years.

And Daniel 12 is end times, the great tribulation.

 

[David Kent]

The person will be a Roman, in that he will be descended from the Julio-Claudian clan - the Caesar family. Where exactly he will be borne and raised - I don't think there is any way of knowing.

The first five kings of the seven kings in Revelation 17:10 were Julius Caesar, August Caesar, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius. King six was Nero. Nero was the last of the Julio-Claudians, a matter of historical record..

I find most of you postings are a mish mash and so mixed up they cannot be considered, Luther said "Nonsense is incapable of refutation."

However I believe that our forefathers were correct in recognising that the Papacy was the Antichrist.

I know that Nero was the last of the Caesars. But when John delivered the book of Revelation, the 6th was still ruling, he was an emperor. And the seventh, and the eighth?

The historicist teaching that I follow, says The five fallen were Kings, 1st republic. 2nd republic, triumverate, dictators, The ruling were emperors, the seventh was the Christian Emperors, The eighth who was not of the seven is the papacy, who is also the beast who is not and yet is.

All the previous kings were dynasties and the eighth, Papal Antichrist is also a dynasty. The Pope calling himself Vicar of Christ is also calling himself Antichrist because they both mean the same, someone in place of Christ, or Vice Christ.

 

[David Kent]

I am here to learn. Will someone in plain talk, not speaking in riddles and asking leading questions, explain for me how the historical view of much of Daniel fits into this chapter?

I am in no way saying none of Daniel is historical.


Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

What time is “at that time”? Is the “time of trouble” here past or future and why? Who are those delivered that are "written in the book"?

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Is this the resurrection or not?

3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

What end is referred to here? Explain.

5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.

6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

What is this time,times and an half? What are all these things that shall be finished?

8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

End of what? What is the time of the end in this context?

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

In the context of this chapter how do we place this event in the past? Or do we?

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

“the end be” What end is referred to here? What does “end of the days” mean here?

Firstly to understand in modern false teaching is that Daniel's 70th is future and that the seventy weeks are not a unit. On that the whole current teaching is based. The Olivet prophecy is mostly historical, in Matthew 24 up to the verse beginning "But" When Jesus answers Matthew's question, what is the sign of your coming. One important point to remember, or two or three, are that Matthew 24 is a continuation of Matthew 23 when Jesus prophesied the destruction of the temple then standing (Your house is left unto you desolate, the current temple, and that would all fall on that generation)
The disciples came from the temple and grew the Lord's attention to the great stones, and he said that not one of those stones would be left standing upon each other. Not a future temple as some try to tell us.

 

[David Kent]

David, a better way to think of the person is as the arch villain of the end times - instead of using the term "Antichrist" in a blanket fashion. The person is only the Antichrist for the time he is in the role of being the King of Israel. The term Christ itself is associated with being "the" messiah, the promised great King of Israel. Take a look at John 12:13 And Mark 15:32. The Antichrist will come in his own name - meaning not the one which God sent.

Antichrist is in place of Christ, the head of the Church, the Temple of God.
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as Go'

The temple of God is the Church, Ye is plural so it is the body of believers that is the temple. From that we follow on to
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
So we see that the papacy, claiming to be head of the church, which honour is due only the Christ is the man of sin, or Antichrist. there can be no other. Our spiritual forefathers recognised that, but modern teachers, "Thinking themselves to be wise have become fools."

 

[David Kent]

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

That is different information than what was given in Matt.24:15 and Mark 13:14. He did not say, "abomination of desolation" spoken by Daniel here in Luke 21. This "desolation" is about the destruction of those armies on the "day of the Lord" at His coming.


22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

And just so we know what timing He means with that coming desolation, He points us to Isaiah 61:2 about the "day of vengeance" with His second coming, that event He did not finish reading at the start of His Ministry, but closed the Book of Isaiah (Luke 4). Reason is because that event is for His 2nd coming.

Matthew, Mark and Luke were all speaking of the same thing but they use different language to describe those events, they was speaking of the temple then standing and Jerusalem then standing.

"The days of vengeance" which as you say was a quote from Isaiah, and refers to the vengeance n that generation for crucifying their Messiah thus filling up the measure of their fathers. Matthew 23:32

When people say, "This is going to Happen then that will happen" don't believe them, very little prophecy ever was like that it was mostly understood only after it was fulfilled.

 

[Douggg]

Antichrist is in place of Christ, the head of the Church, the Temple of God.

David, pretend you were a Jew, living at the time of Jesus's birth, and someone told you the messiah was about to born - what would the messiah mean to you, a Jew?

 

[David Kent]

MYSTERY BABYLON -- CLOTHED IN PRIESTLY GARMENTS OF AARONIC PRIESTHOOD
Revelation 17:4, 18:16
And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication ... And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones...

All colours used by the Popes and Cardinals of the RCC.

 

[David Kent]

David, pretend you were a Jew, living at the time of Jesus's birth, and someone told you the messiah was about to born - what would the messiah mean to you, a Jew?

Jesus came as Messiah, the prince, and King, Most rejected him and crucified him, but a large number recognised him and repented of their sins an accepted him as their king and saviour. They were the true Israel. You forget that most Jews got it completely wrong about Jesus, and many, perhaps most Christians still get it wrong.

 

[Douggg]

Jesus came as Messiah, the prince, and King, Most rejected him and crucified him, but a large number recognised him and repented of their sins an accepted him as their king and saviour. They were the true Israel. You forget that most Jews got it completely wrong about Jesus, and many, perhaps most Christians still get it wrong.

David, you seemed to have misunderstood my question. If you were a Jew, living before Jesus was born - and was told that the messiah was about to be born - what would "the" messiah mean to you?

 

[John Prewett]

Want to know OUR end of era scenario ? If so, the best you can do is study-heed Revelation 13->forward.
And ignore all other books.

 

[David Kent]

Do you believe in a future second coming of Jesus Christ, Matthew 24:29-31?

Yes.

Do you believe in a future resurrrction of the believer, 1 Corinthians 15:52-54

Yes
John 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Do you believe there is a future judgement?

Do you believe in a future eternal kingdom Revelation 21:1-5?

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Do you believe that judgement will also be on the last day?

John 6:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

I believe in a current kingdom which will continue into eternity.

 

[David Kent]

David, you seemed to have misunderstood my question. If you were a Jew, living before Jesus was born - and was told that the messiah was about to be born - what would "the" messiah mean to you?

The same as those we read in the scripture, the king of the Jews who would come and restore the kingdom to Israel.

But I would have been wrong as all those Jews were, including the apostles.

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes.

Yes
John 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of alResurrection ath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Do you believe there is a future judgement?



Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Do you believe that judgement will also be on the last day?

John 6:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

I believe in a current kingdom which will continue into eternity.

I believe in a future second coming of Jesus Christ, Matthew 24:29-31 Human Eyes Will Witness The Event

I Believe In A Future Bodily Resurrection of the believer. 1 Corinthians 15 :51-54

I believe in a future eternal Judgment of all, literal eternal kingdom, literal lake of fire Matthew 25:31-46, Revelation 20:11-15

I believe this earth will be dissolved by the Lords fire in judgment at his return.
2 Peter 3:10-13, Malachi 3:2, 1 Thessalonians 1:7-8, Luke 17:29-30, 1 Corinthians 3:13

I believe in the New Creation, Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem Revelation 21:1-5

The event of this earths Last Day will take place at the return of Jesus Christ, immediately after the tribulation Matthew 24:29-31

The resurrection of all, final judgment of all, the earths destruction by fire, the eternal kingdom revealed, will all take place at the second coming, in the twinkling of an eye.
1 Corinthians 15:52-54

 

[David Kent]

The event of this earths Last Day will take place at the return of Jesus Christ, immediately after the tribulation Matthew 24:29-31

Avoiding the point.

Do you believe the saints will be raised on the last day, which you say is after the tribulation? John 6:39,40,44,54. John 11:24 ?