Babylon of Revelation 17-18 was Jerusalem/unfaithful Israel

[David Kent]

Today, the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem have claimed they have Levite priests from having researched their DNA.

Not valid according to Ezra.

 

[David Kent]

And Antiochus Epiphanes did almost fulfill those events in Daniel to a tee, even with spiritually desolating inside the temple with swine sacrifice, and the setting up an idol in Zeus worship. But he did all that in 170-165 B.C. About 200 years later Jesus warned of the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel, so the one of Matt.24:15 cannot be Antiochus.

I did not say it would be Antiochus. Josephus in his history of Jerusalem gives only two desolations. First by Nebuchadnezzar and Second by Titus.

 

[David Kent]

In order.....

The abomination of desolation in Daniel 11 was by Antiochus

No it wasn't it was still future when Jesus gave the Olivet,
Antiochus was a He and it was a They that were to place the AOD. (The Romans)

 

[Douggg]

No it wasn't it was still future when Jesus gave the Olivet,
Antiochus was a He and it was a They that were to place the AOD. (The Romans)

Antiochus did not place the AOD the image of Zeus by himself. Why would you think that Antiochus did it all alone? He had to have an army backing him.

Daniel 11:35 is the transition to the end times. The king in Daniel 11:36 is the end times person, the beast in Revelation 13.

 

[BABerean2]

Likewise, how does that saying go - you can lead a horse to water, but can't make him drink.



In order.....

The abomination of desolation in Daniel 11 was by Antiochus

The desolation of Jerusalem was 70AD

The transgression of desolation is end times...this generation....triggering the Day of the Lord

The abomination of desolation in Daniel 12 is end times....this generation...triggering the great tribulation

Jesus returns 1335 days following the beginning of the great tribulation.

Why don't you show us the actual text that makes your viewpoint work.

At least show us some water...

.

 

[Douggg]

Why don't you show us the actual text that makes your viewpoint work.

At least show us some water...

.

I explained the transgression of desolation and abomination of desolation in my post #381 in this thread.

 

[David Kent]

Antiochus did not place the AOD the image of Zeus by himself. Why would you think that Antiochus did it all alone? He had to have an army backing him.

Daniel 11:35 is the transition to the end times. The king in Daniel 11:36 is the end times person, the beast in Revelation 13.

Prophecy doesn't jump like that. The King in Daniel 11:36 is Herod He came at the correct time and fulfilled that role. The first transition in the prophecy is Daniel 12:1 when Michael Stands UP, The Messiah period then goes on to Daniel's people, the saved Jews fleeing Jerusalem in AD 70 according to Jesus' command in Matthew, Mark & Luke.

 

[David Kent]

Antiochus did not place the AOD the image of Zeus by himself. Why would you think that Antiochus did it all alone? He had to have an army backing him.

There were two actors on the stage at that time, Antiochus as "The ships of Chittim" the Romans. It was they who were the "They". Antioch desecrated the temple but he didn't desolate it. It was reconsecrated exactly three years to the day after the desecration. That doesn't fit any of the time periods givem.

The Antichrist, who at that time will be the King of Israel goes into the temple, sits, showing himself to be God. It is that act which reveals him to be the man of sin. That act is called the Transgression of Desolation in Daniel 8:13.

How can a Roman Antichrist be King of Israel?

 

[BABerean2]

I explained the transgression of desolation and abomination of desolation in my post #381 in this thread.

You applied Daniel chapter 8 to a future antichrist, instead of Antiochus Epiphanes, and then applied that to Matthew 24:15, which is circular reasoning.

You are ignoring John 10:22.

.

 

[Davy]

I did not say it would be Antiochus. Josephus in his history of Jerusalem gives only two desolations. First by Nebuchadnezzar and Second by Titus.

Titus never fulfilled any 'abomination of desolation', because the temple burned before his army could get control of it, a fire having started while they were fighting over it (this per Josephus).

Furthermore, the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel is about the placing of an idol inside the temple for false worship. This Antiochus Epiphanes did... do inside the Jewish temple in Jerusalem, around 165 B.C.. He setup an idol in Zeus worship.

The abomination idea is from the OT involving an idol in false worship. God gave a prime example of it in Ezekiel 8 about the "image of jealousy", an idol setup for false worship which makes Him jealous.

Thus the requirement of the "abomination of desolation" event is an idol in a standing temple in Jerusalem. This is also what Jesus showed in Matt.24:15 and Mark 13:14:

Mark 13:14
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
KJV

Matt 24:15
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
KJV

 

[Davy]

Fulfilled. From the time of the first surrounding of Jeruasalem by the armies of Cestius, the AOD, till the failure of the daily sacrifice was exactly 1290 days, see the dates given in Josephus.

The burden of proof is upon you to post that date proof from Josephus' writing.

 

[Postvieww]

I don't see the connection, Jerusalem was completely destroyed and levelled by the Romans. 'Titus dug up the foundations of the temple. It was rebuilt by others not the Jews till recent years.

Explain how “found no more at all ” can mean “rebuilt by others not the Jews till recent years”.

 

[David Kent]

Titus never fulfilled any 'abomination of desolation', because the temple burned before his army could get control of it, a fire having started while they were fighting over it (this per Josephus).

Furthermore, the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel is about the placing of an idol inside the temple for false worship. This Antiochus Epiphanes did... do inside the Jewish temple in Jerusalem, around 165 B.C.. He setup an idol in Zeus worship.

Thus the requirement of the "abomination of desolation" event is an idol in a standing temple in Jerusalem. This is also what Jesus showed in Matt.24:15 and Mark 13:14:

Mark 13:14
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
KJV

Matt 24:15
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
KJV

Oh Dear Oh Dear. You do post selective verses

• Luke 21:20 ¶ And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
  21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
  

You forget or choose to ignore that Luke is describing the same event as Matthew and Mark, who were speaking circumspectly as it would be treason in Judea to say the Roman armies would come and destroy the city and Temple. Remember that the leaders said of Jesus John 11:48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation. Luke not writing from Judea could write plainly. so (let him that readeth understand,)

If it were an idol in the temple they would not have to write circumspectly. Jerusalem was the Holy Place.

Furthermore, the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel is about the placing of an idol inside the temple for false worship. This Antiochus Epiphanes did... do inside the Jewish temple in Jerusalem, around 165 B.C.. He setup an idol in Zeus worship.

Obviously Josephus, a Jew didn't agree with you, he said there were only two desolations of the temple. One by Nebuchadnezzar and one by Titus.

CHAPTER 10. THAT WHEREAS THE CITY OF JERUSALEM HAD BEEN FIVE TIMES TAKEN FORMERLY, THIS WAS THE SECOND TIME OF ITS DESOLATION. A BRIEF ACCOUNT OF ITS HISTORY.

1. AND thus was Jerusalem taken, in the second year of the reign of Vespasian, on the eighth day of the month Gorpeius [Elul]. It had been taken five 797 times before, though this was the second time of its desolation; for Shishak, the king of Egypt, and after him Antiochus, and after him Pompey, and after them Sosius and Herod, took the city, but still preserved it; but before all these, the king of Babylon conquered it, and made it desolate, one thousand four hundred and sixty-eight years and six months after it was built. But he who first built it. Was a potent man among the Canaanites, and is in our own tongue called [Melchisedek], the Righteous King, for such he really was; on which account he was [there] the first priest of God, and first built a temple [there], and called the city Jerusalem, which was formerly called Salem. However, David, the king of the Jews, ejected the Canaanites, and set-tied his own people therein. It was demolished entirely by the Babylonians, four hundred and seventyseven years and six months after him. And from king David, who was the first of the Jews who reigned therein, to this destruction under Titus, were one thousand one hundred and seventy-nine years; but from its first building, till this last destruction, were two thousand one hundred and seventy-seven years; yet hath not its great antiquity, nor its vast riches, nor the diffusion of its nation over all the habitable earth, nor the greatness of the veneration paid to it on a religious account, been sufficient to preserve it from being destroyed. And thus ended the siege of Jerusalem.

797 This is the proper place for such as have closely attended to these latter books of the War to peruse, and that with equal attention, those distinct and plain predictions of Jesus of Nazareth, in the Gospels thereto relating, as compared with their exact completions in Josephus's history; upon which completions, as Dr: Whitby well observes, Annot. on Matthew 24:2, no small part of the evidence for the truth of the Christian religion does depend; and as I have step by step compared them together in my Literal Accomplishment of Scripture Prophecies. The reader is to observe further, that the true reason why I have so seldom taken notice of those completions in the course of these notes, notwithstanding their being so very remarkable, and frequently so very obvious, is this, that I had entirely prevented myself in that treatise beforehand; to which therefore I must here, once for all, seriously refer every inquisitive reader. Besides these five here enumerated, who had taken Jerusalem of old, Josephus, upon further recollection, reckons a sixth, Antiq. B. XII. ch. 1. sect. 1, who should have been here inserted in the second place; I mean Ptolemy, the son of Lagus.

 

[David Kent]

Explain how “found no more at all ” can mean “rebuilt by others not the Jews till recent years”.

Meaning? I don't see the connection.

 

[Davy]

Oh Dear Oh Dear. You do post selective verses

• Luke 21:20 ¶ And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
  21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

You forget or choose to ignore that Luke is describing the same event as Matthew and Mark, who were speaking circumspectly as it would be treason in Judea to say the Roman armies would come and destroy the city and Temple. Remember that the leaders said of Jesus John 11:48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation. Luke not writing from Judea could write plainly. so (let him that readeth understand,)

If it were an idol in the temple they would not have to write circumspectly. Jerusalem was the Holy Place.


Obviously Josephus, a Jew didn't agree with you, he said there were only two desolations of the temple. One by Nebuchadnezzar and one by Titus.

CHAPTER 10. THAT WHEREAS THE CITY OF JERUSALEM HAD BEEN FIVE TIMES TAKEN FORMERLY, THIS WAS THE SECOND TIME OF ITS DESOLATION. A BRIEF ACCOUNT OF ITS HISTORY.

1. AND thus was Jerusalem taken, in the second year of the reign of Vespasian, on the eighth day of the month Gorpeius [Elul]. It had been taken five 797 times before, though this was the second time of its desolation; for Shishak, the king of Egypt, and after him Antiochus, and after him Pompey, and after them Sosius and Herod, took the city, but still preserved it; but before all these, the king of Babylon conquered it, and made it desolate, one thousand four hundred and sixty-eight years and six months after it was built. But he who first built it. Was a potent man among the Canaanites, and is in our own tongue called [Melchisedek], the Righteous King, for such he really was; on which account he was [there] the first priest of God, and first built a temple [there], and called the city Jerusalem, which was formerly called Salem. However, David, the king of the Jews, ejected the Canaanites, and set-tied his own people therein. It was demolished entirely by the Babylonians, four hundred and seventyseven years and six months after him. And from king David, who was the first of the Jews who reigned therein, to this destruction under Titus, were one thousand one hundred and seventy-nine years; but from its first building, till this last destruction, were two thousand one hundred and seventy-seven years; yet hath not its great antiquity, nor its vast riches, nor the diffusion of its nation over all the habitable earth, nor the greatness of the veneration paid to it on a religious account, been sufficient to preserve it from being destroyed. And thus ended the siege of Jerusalem.

797 This is the proper place for such as have closely attended to these latter books of the War to peruse, and that with equal attention, those distinct and plain predictions of Jesus of Nazareth, in the Gospels thereto relating, as compared with their exact completions in Josephus's history; upon which completions, as Dr: Whitby well observes, Annot. on Matthew 24:2, no small part of the evidence for the truth of the Christian religion does depend; and as I have step by step compared them together in my Literal Accomplishment of Scripture Prophecies. The reader is to observe further, that the true reason why I have so seldom taken notice of those completions in the course of these notes, notwithstanding their being so very remarkable, and frequently so very obvious, is this, that I had entirely prevented myself in that treatise beforehand; to which therefore I must here, once for all, seriously refer every inquisitive reader. Besides these five here enumerated, who had taken Jerusalem of old, Josephus, upon further recollection, reckons a sixth, Antiq. B. XII. ch. 1. sect. 1, who should have been here inserted in the second place; I mean Ptolemy, the son of Lagus.

Antiquities of the Jews 12:246-253 King Antiochus …. made an expedition against the city of Jerusalem; …. Now it came to pass, after two years, in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of that month which is by us called Chisleu, and by the Macedonians Apellaios, in the hundred and fifty-third Olympiad, that the king came up to Jerusalem, and, pretending peace, he got possession of the city by treachery:….So he left the temple bare, and ….. he forbade them to offer those daily sacrifices which they used to offer to God, according to the Law. ….. And when the king had built an idol altar upon God’s altar, he slew swine upon it, and so offered a sacrifice neither according to the Law, nor the Jewish religious worship in that country.


Antiquities of the Jews 12:319-326 So on the five and twentieth day of the month of Chisleu, which the Macedonians call Apellaios, they lit the lamps that were on the lampstand, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of showbread], and offered burnt offerings upon the new altar [of burnt offering]. 320 Now it so happened, that these things were done on the very same day on which their divine worship had stopped, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years’ time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month of Apellaios, and on the hundred fifty and third Olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month of Apellaios, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth Olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would stop that worship [for some time]…… And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights .


Antiquities of the Jews 10:272-276 Daniel wrote that he saw these visions in the plain of Susa; and he has informed us that God interpreted the appearance of this vision after the following manner….. and that from among them there should arise a certain king that should overcome our nation and their laws, and should take away their political government, and should spoil the temple, and forbid the sacrifices to be offered for three years’ time.” And indeed it so came to pass, that our nation suffered these things under Antiochus Epiphanes, according to Daniel’s vision, and what he wrote many years before they came to pass. In the very same manner Daniel also wrote concerning the Roman government, and that our country should be made desolate by them.

Furthermore, the Luke 21:20-24 passage is giving some different information about the events in Jerusalem just prior to Christ's return. The armies that will surround Jerusalem are those of the Gentiles that will tread the city for 42 months per Rev.11:1-2 on the 6th trumpet timing. At the end of that with Jesus' coming is when that times of the Gentiles will be fulfilled. That of course places the time of the seeing of the abomination of desolation just before that 42 months. That 42 months also is the time the "dragon" is given power to rule per Rev.13. It is the same period when God's two witnesses will prophesy in Jerusalem.

 

[Postvieww]

Luke is saying that it is Jerusalem that was to be desolated. "(whoso readeth, let him understand)"

Meaning? I don't see the connection.

The point of this thread is the theory that Mystery Babylon and Jerusalem are one and the same.

My point was that in Rev. 18 we have:

Revelation 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all

If Babylon is Jerusalem and it shall be destroyed and “found no more at all” how can it be rebuilt by others and still be the Babylon referred to in Revelation 18?

I don't see the connection, Jerusalem was completely destroyed and levelled by the Romans. 'Titus dug up the foundations of the temple. It was rebuilt by others not the Jews till recent years.

 

[David Kent]

Yes I have read all that in Josephus, but Antiochus did not destroy the temple and the Daniel reference is from Daniel 11. As to the previous quote I posted from Josephus The AD 70 desolation was the second upon which the temple was destroyed, but then you have just confirmed that it was the Romans that were the desolators.

Furthermore, the Luke 21:20-24 passage is giving some different information about the events in Jerusalem just prior to Christ's return. The armies that will surround Jerusalem are those of the Gentiles that will tread the city for 42 months per Rev.11:1-2 on the 6th trumpet timing. At the end of that with Jesus' coming is when that times of the Gentiles will be fulfilled. That of course places the time of the seeing of the abomination of desolation just before that 42 months. That 42 months also is the time the "dragon" is given power to rule per Rev.13. It is the same period when God's two witnesses will prophesy in Jerusalem.

Luke is giving exactly the same information but not in veiled language as do Matthew and Mark.

And don't forget Jesus was speaking about the temple then standing and he was in Matthew 23. Not some supposed future temple.

 

[David Kent]

The point of this thread is the theory that Mystery Babylon and Jerusalem are one and the same.

My point was that in Rev. 18 we have:

Revelation 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all

If Babylon is Jerusalem and it shall be destroyed and “found no more at all” how can it be rebuilt by others and still be the Babylon referred to in Revelation 18?

That was answered long ago. No it is not.

 

[Davy]

Yes I have read all that in Josephus, but Antiochus did not destroy the temple and the Daniel reference is from Daniel 11. As to the previous quote I posted from Josephus The AD 70 desolation was the second upon which the temple was destroyed, but then you have just confirmed that it was the Romans that were the desolators.

Luke is giving exactly the same information but not in veiled language as do Matthew and Mark.

And don't forget Jesus was speaking about the temple then standing and he was in Matthew 23. Not some supposed future temple.

Obviously you are confused about the idea of desolation. The "abomination of desolation" is not about the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem. It is about the placing of an idol abomination in false worship, like in the Ezekiel 8 example "image of jealousy". A standing temple is required for the "abomination of desolation" to take place, and that is exactly what the Dan.11 and Dan.9:27 are specifically about.

Now what I posted from Josephus' writings is about the "abomination of desolation" event from the Book of Daniel, not the destruction of the temple and city by the Romans.

In Luke 21:20-24, Jesus is not... giving the exact same information as He did in the Matt.24 & Mark 13 versions of His Olivet Discourse.

Luke 21:20-24
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

That is different information than what was given in Matt.24:15 and Mark 13:14. He did not say, "abomination of desolation" spoken by Daniel here in Luke 21. This "desolation" is about the destruction of those armies on the "day of the Lord" at His coming.


22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

And just so we know what timing He means with that coming desolation, He points us to Isaiah 61:2 about the "day of vengeance" with His second coming, that event He did not finish reading at the start of His Ministry, but closed the Book of Isaiah (Luke 4). Reason is because that event is for His 2nd coming.


23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
KJV

This timing of Jerusalem being trodden down by the Gentiles is about that army surrounding Jerusalem for the tribulation period. In Rev.11:1-2 we are shown the Gentiles are given to tread the city for 42 months, the same time the dragon of Rev.13 is given power over the earth and the saints. It is the latter half of Daniel's symbolic "one week", the latter 1260 days before Christ's return.

 

[Douggg]

You applied Daniel chapter 8 to a future antichrist, instead of Antiochus Epiphanes, and then applied that to Matthew 24:15, which is circular reasoning.

You are ignoring John 10:22.

.

BaB2, I like the term "applied" and will try to use it in the future, because it is a concise way of showing the linkage between the passages. Thanks.

I applied Daniel 8:13, the transgression of desolation to 2thessaloninas2:4 as being an act. Then I applied Daniel 8:25 magnify himself in his heart to Ezekiel 28:2. Then I applied 2thessalonians2:4 sitteth to Ezekiel 28:2 sit. Then I applied Ezekiel 28:9-10 to Revelation 13:3 the mortally wounded head. Then I applied Isaiah 14:18-20 to Revelation 13:3 the person recovered from being mortally wounded.

I applied Daniel 12:11-12 to Matthew 24:15, the abomination of desolation. Then I applied Daniel 11:31 to Revelation 13:14-15 to conclude a statue in the standing position. Then I applied standing to Matthew 24:15 standing. Then I applied Revelation 13:4 to Revelation 13:15 as Satan incarnating the image and being worshiped.

The image, a statue in the standing position, being the abomination of desolation.

Then I applied Daniel 12:12 blessed is he who remains faithful till Jesus's Return, to know that the great tribulation lasts 1335 days.
______________________________________________________________________________

John 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.

We've gone over this before. I don't see the relevancy. They were celebrating Hanakkuah in Jerusalem. Hanakkuah is tied to the Maccabees in Daniel 11:32.