Babylon is the final kingdom the kingdom of the beast

[ewq1938]

I underlined a part of your comment that is not true.

The ten kings are not giving their kingdoms plural to the beast.

Yes they do and most scholars agree with that.

The kingdom of the beast and the ten kings will cease to exist when Jesus returns.

And he will take their kingdoms, all kingdoms.

 

[Douggg]

Yes they do and most scholars agree with that.

You are making statements that can't be back up. What scholars? State your source.

The text in Daniel 7 and in Revelation regarding the kingdom of the little horn person and the beast and the ten kings says kingdom singular in the verses that I copied and pasted in my posts.

It is not fourth kingdoms, but fourth kingdom. The seven kings and the ten kings are of that fourth kingdom. The Roman Empire; and in the end times, the end times version of it - the European union of nations.

Do you acknowledge the existence of the European union?

Do you acknowledge the existence of Israel, the nation over there as being one nation again as the reuniting of the northern kingdom and the southern kingdom as prophesied in Ezekiel 37 ?

 

[alertandawake]

Rev 17:10 There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition.​

This part here "The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven", what is it exactly saying?

Because to me this sounds like a reference to the G7 (Group of Seven). What many may not realise is that the G7 actually has 8 members, but is still called the G7. The eight member is the EU.

 

[Timtofly]

Mystery Babylon is Rome, pure and simple. It would've been understood as such by those to whom Revelation was written. It is described as a "mystery" because John was not given to identify her explicitly--he was imprisoned by the Romans. It would not do him well to describe their capital city as a "harlot!"

John was given 2 riddles in Rev 17, "7 hills" and "7 kings." These two symbols are extracted from the fact the Beast has 7 heads, which are 7 European leaders who stand together with the Beast. According to Dan 7, 3 of the 10 kingdoms have their rulers removed, leaving 7 rulers to align with Antichrist over 10 kingdoms.

So the riddle of the "7 hills" refers to the 7 hills of Rome, since Rome was known as a city with 7 hills. And the riddle of the "7 kings" refers to a succession of kingdoms understood in the Bible, beginning with Egypt, and continuing with the Assyrians and the Babylonians, who led to Israel's captivities. And then, in the book of Daniel, we have a continuation of these kingdoms in Persia, Greece, and finally Rome.

This 6th "king" we are told existed in John's time. Clearly, that was Rome. So the "mystery" is discernible by Christians who know the Bible and history.

The 7th "king" refers to Rome's endtime existence, led by Antichrist, the "8th king." Since the Antichrist destroys the Harlot, there is a clear distinction between the Antichrist and Rome.

Israel, in the time of her backsliding, was viewed as a harlot. It is no different with the apostate Church in the endtimes, who when falling away from their faith, appear as a "great harlot." The Antichrist will use this harlot, but in the end destroy it.

Are you saying Jesus is going to set up His throne in Rome, and that is where Satan's empire will be centered?

You are missing the whole point that Satan is going to be allowed to sit on the throne of the Son of man.

Babylon is Satan's empire. It is not a human ethnic kingdom. If you think Rome is the religion, that is the harlot riding on the beast, not a kingdom or empire.

Babylon is a mystery because no one knows what human governments form after the events of the 6th Seal. At the 6th Seal the continents and mountains/kingdoms will all be moved out of their current places. All of man's works will be destroyed, and all the kingdoms will have to be redefined. There are currently hundreds of nations. Satan's Babylonian empire will only have 10 nations left out of humanity. One of those may be called Rome.

 

[Timtofly]

Do you acknowledge the existence of Israel, the nation over there as being one nation again as the reuniting of the northern kingdom and the southern kingdom as prophesied in Ezekiel 37 ?

You do know that Israel also fits the role of a kingdom that was, was not, and now is again.

Are these kingdoms or one kingdom with several kings over time? Beast represent kingdoms, not individuals.

The only individual around throughout all this time is Satan. The kingdom that was, was not, and is again, can only be associated with Satan.

 

[ewq1938]

This part here "The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven", what is it exactly saying?

Because to me this sounds like a reference to the G7 (Group of Seven). What many may not realise is that the G7 actually has 8 members, but is still called the G7. The eight member is the EU.

It cannot be anything that has a total of 7 or 8 things because it specifically says 5 of the kings had fallen and the 6th was falling so that only leaves two left to exist and they can only exist a short time so that rules out anything that began in the past and has more than 2 of whatever they are.

Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

 

[YahuahSaves]

The 7 heads represent 7 mountains, and 7 kings. The 7 heads in Revelation 12 have crowns. Something not appropriate for mountains.

"Crowns" could refer to land owned by the kings? E.g. public land not private land.
What I'm getting at, is when the scripture was written, they could only describe it as kingdoms and not governments the way we understand it today.

 

[alertandawake]

It cannot be anything that has a total of 7 or 8 things because it specifically says 5 of the kings had fallen and the 6th was falling so that only leaves two left to exist and they can only exist a short time so that rules out anything that began in the past and has more than 2 of whatever they are.

Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

But what is the "eighth" referring to?

I also question some of the translations, as some translations say "eighth" but others say "eighth king". But the thing is if in verse Rev 17.10 there is a total of 7 kings, then what is this "eighth"?

Some people are assuming the word "beast" automatically refers to a individual. When looking at the description of the beast concerned in the various passages (Rev 13.1) it sounds like to me some kind of "conglomerate". The description in Rev 13.2, the various types of animal references, it could be a reference to a Coat of Arms?

But I have to admit, the 2nd beast has really got me thinking. It sounds like it could be a reference to some kind of multi industry company that is two sides of the same coin? Perhaps it could be a reference to certain organisations and regulatory bodies working together? I don't know.

 

[ewq1938]

But what is the "eighth" referring to?

Either it's a new and 8th king somehow related to the other 7, or it's the 7th king in some new kingship. IMO the false prophet is the 7th king, king over the ten horned beast and the FP himself has two little horns so I believe those two horns means he is a king twice, or in two different ways.

Some people are assuming the word "beast" automatically refers to a individual. When looking at the description of the beast concerned in the various passages (Rev 13.1) it sounds like to me some kind of "conglomerate".

A beast can be a kingdom or can be an individual. Context and the text will show that.

The description in Rev 13.2, the various types of animal references, it could be a reference to a Coat of Arms?

Likely has more to do with what Daniel saw.

But I have to admit, the 2nd beast has really got me thinking. It sounds like it could be a reference to some kind of multi industry company that is two sides of the same coin? Perhaps it could be a reference to certain organisations and regulatory bodies working together? I don't know.

The second beast is the false prophet, a individual person. He does the same things Paul described the man of sin doing.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

But what is the "eighth" referring to?

I also question some of the translations, as some translations say "eighth" but others say "eighth king". But the thing is if in verse Rev 17.10 there is a total of 7 kings, then what is this "eighth"?

Some people are assuming the word "beast" automatically refers to a individual. When looking at the description of the beast concerned in the various passages (Rev 13.1) it sounds like to me some kind of "conglomerate". The description in Rev 13.2, the various types of animal references, it could be a reference to a Coat of Arms?

But I have to admit, the 2nd beast has really got me thinking. It sounds like it could be a reference to some kind of multi industry company that is two sides of the same coin? Perhaps it could be a reference to certain organisations and regulatory bodies working together? I don't know.

One thing that I came across in my reading of the scripture is that Satan, who he is, his physical depiction, is the same as the beast.

Rev 12:3-4 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. .... Rev 12:7-9 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

The actual kingdoms that are in the earth, that represent this beast, are a copy of satan. However they form they come under the will or direction of satan.

There may be many kingdoms that follow this anti-Christ pattern or mimicry. As an example, one group I mentioned earlier, the World Council Of Religious Leaders (The World Council of Religious Leaders), has 7 co-chairs, and 10 Board members. A pattern of 7, and 10. So satans hand is on it, but it does not mean it is the beast. Any number of organizations could follow the pattern, time will reveal the actual beast in its own time.

 

[dfw69]

Rev 17

15 Then the angel said to me,

“The waters(A)you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.

(B) 16 The beast and the ten horns

(C) you saw will hate the prostitute.

(D) They will bring her to ruin

(E) and leave her naked;

(F) they will eat her flesh

(G) and burn her with fire.

(H) 17 For God has put it into their hearts

(I) to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority,

(J) until God’s words are fulfilled.

(K) 18 The woman you saw is the great city

(L) that rules over the kings of the earth.”

Whoever mysterious Babylon will be, it seems the Antichrist was released to punish her specificity for her oppression over the 10 kingdoms . The Antichrist may be a savior type from the oppressive mysteries of Babylon

 

[Jipsah]

Mystery Babylon is Rome, pure and simple. It would've been understood as such by those to whom Revelation was written.

The people to whom the Rev was written were expected to know to whom "666" referred as well, weren't they?

 

[alertandawake]

The second beast is the false prophet, a individual person. He does the same things Paul described the man of sin doing.

I disagree with the second beast being a individual person. If you are referring to the "the man of sin" reference as in 2 Thess 2:3, the word "man" can also be translated to mean "men". We could be looking at "men" in the plural sense, not just one individual. But this is my opinion.

In the world we live in today, we have deceivers by the truckloads.

 

[ewq1938]

I disagree with the second beast being a individual person.

A false prophet is one man. It cannot be made into multiple men because it is singular not plural in the Greek and same with Paul's "man of sin". Both are described as performing deceiving miracles so clear both refer to the same man.

 

[Berean Tim]

Who is Babylon in Revelation? The beast upon which the woman (harlot) rides is an end-time kingdom, the final end-time kingdom before Christ returns, it does not yet exist. It is not current-day Russia, or China, the UN, EU nor any other nation (they all have more than 7 rulers), it has yet to come. Yet it may be made up of parts of those nations, however, i.e. its feet being the feet of the “bear” (possibly Russia), etc.


We see this kingdom has the following characteristics:

• It rules over the whole earth
• It has 7 rulers heads or rulers
• It has 10 horns or kings that rule with the beast (together) at the end
• The beast will make war with the saints
• This kingdom will finally be overcome by Jesus’s return

Dan 7:7-8 "After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words.


Dan 7:23-27 "Thus he said: 'The fourth beast shall be A fourth kingdom on earth, Which shall be different from all other kingdoms, And shall devour the whole earth, Trample it and break it in pieces. The ten horns are ten kings Who shall arise from this kingdom. And another shall rise after them; He shall be different from the first ones, And shall subdue three kings. He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time. 'But the court shall be seated, And they shall take away his dominion, To consume and destroy it forever. Then the kingdom and dominion, And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.'


Rev 13:1-2 Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority.



Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.


Rev 17:9-14 "Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition. "The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast. These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful."


There are other kingdoms before it, notably:


Dan 7:5 "And suddenly another beast, a second, like a bear. It was raised up on one side, and had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. And they said thus to it: 'Arise, devour much flesh!'


I believe we are in the end times. I wonder whether Daniel 7: 5 is our time, the “bear” being Russia (the symbol of that country). Which right now has arisen to “devour much flesh”.


The interesting thing is the book of Revelation is not all a sequence, Revelation 13 and 17 describe the “same” beast.

Babylon and the Beast Kingdom are different.

Revelation 17:15-18 15And the angelc said to me, “The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and languages. 16And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the prostitute. They will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire, 17for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. 18And the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth.”

It's going to be difficult and dangerous to separate these two in those days. Could get the Antichrist wrong