Babies and children

Tellyontellyon

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This isn't generic faith here, this is a specific kind of faith--faith or trust in Jesus Christ.
But surely he is referring to those who are believers, who have faith. He is not referring to an innate faith that we are born with. He's not talking about babies. There is no justification for stretching what he is saying to mean that. Here Paul is writing to believers.
If we believe by grace, then we still must believe... babies don't believe in anything.
 
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ViaCrucis

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But surely he is referring to those who are believers, who have faith. He is not referring to an innate faith that we are born with.

I don't think anyone is born with this faith, and I don't think Paul thinks this either.

It is precisely because it isn't innate, it is completely outside of ourselves, alien to us, that means that we can't claim that it is something we have brought forward to God to gain His approval.

This faith is only ours because God Himself makes it ours. It is a gift, He gives it. And the way He gives it is through the Means of Grace He has established--Word and Sacrament.

It is precisely because faith is a gift, and God confers this gift through Baptism, that anyone who is baptized has faith in Jesus Christ.

This faith will grow, it will start small like a mustard seed but through the watering and nourishment that is found through the Word, that this faith matures, and sprouts, and bears fruit in our lives.

He's not talking about babies. There is no justification for stretching what he is saying to mean that. Here Paul is writing to believers.
If we believe by grace, then we still must believe... babies don't believe in anything.

Baptized babies believe in Jesus Christ. Because the faith here is the supernatural work and gift of God, not of ourselves.

Faith isn't our work.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Tellyontellyon

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It is precisely because faith is a gift, and God confers this gift through Baptism, that anyone who is baptized has faith in Jesus Christ.
I was baptised as a baby and I've never been a believer. Splashing water on a baby and saying a prayer is not being baptised by God. The minister is not God and it is not in his power to control God or direct God's grace.
Faith isn't our work.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I was baptised as a baby and I've never been a believer.

Well, from the historic Christian position, you were a believer. You stopped being a believer. If you were to one day return to Christianity, you wouldn't be converting as a first time Christian, but would be returning back to the faith which you received in your Holy Baptism.

Jesus tells us a story about a sower who went out into the fields to plant seeds. Some of the seeds were immediately picked up and eaten by the birds before it could take root. Some of the seeds began to take root, but were then choked out by thorns, thistles, and weeds killing them. And then some of the seeds took root, sprouted, and bore fruit.

Jesus tells us that the seed is the word of God, the word goes forth, sometimes it is plucked away by the devils (the birds), sometimes it begins to take root but is then chocked out by the burdens and worries of this life, and then sometimes the word takes root, grows, and bears fruit.

Sometimes when people receive the word, nothing happens. Other times it begins to take root, but is choked out. And then sometimes it takes root and matures and bears fruit.

You were baptized, and so the word was planted in you, and it wasn't wasteful or ineffective, it was given to you, and you received it. It's not that your baptism, as though God's word and grace, was ineffective. It's that for reasons which only you know, that faith was choked out, that the faith you had been given wasn't nourished, wasn't fed, wasn't watered, or something.

But from the historic Christian perspective, you very much were a believing Christian--even if you weren't cognizant of any of it.

Splashing water on a baby and saying a prayer is not being baptised by God. The minister is not God and it is not in his power to control God or direct God's grace.

Of course the minister has no power and can't direct God or His grace. But he's not. God Himself has staked His own name on His word, and His word here in Baptism. Neither the one being baptized or the one officiating the baptism has any power or is doing anything. It is God who is at work in Baptism, because it's His work. He isn't being directed or controlled--it is He who is willing and working through this means to accomplish His purpose. That is His revealed will and purpose, it is what He promised, and He doesn't go back on His word and promise. He is faithful.

Faith isn't our work.

Absolutely correct. It isn't.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Tellyontellyon

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It's that for reasons which only you know, that faith was choked out, that the faith you had been given wasn't nourished, wasn't fed, wasn't watered, or something.

But from the historic Christian perspective, you very much were a believing Christian--even if you weren't cognizant of any
Can you point out the decisive scriptural reference for this Historic Christian 'tradition'.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Can you point out the decisive scriptural reference for this Historic Christian 'tradition'.

There is no passage in the Bible that says, "baptized babies have faith".

It is a position built upon other things the Scriptures teach.

Firstly, that faith is a gift from God apart from ourselves, and that this gift comes through God's efficacious word. That can be found in Ephesians 2:8 and Romans 10:17 respectively.

Secondly, that Baptism is God's word connected with water, and the clearest passage for this is found in Ephesians 5:26.

Thirdly, seeing as Christ does not forbid children but welcomes them (Matthew 19:14), that entire households received Baptism (Acts of the Apostles 16:15, 1 Corinthians 1:16), and Christ's command to His Church is to make disciples of all nations and baptize them (Matthew 28:19) we do not deny God's work and gift to anyone, including children. In addition to this, it had always been the Jewish practice that when a family converts to Judaism that not only are males (infants and children included) be circumcised, but that all (infants and children included) are converted through the ritual washing of water called tevilah in a ritual bath called a mikveh. This practice of Jewish ritual washing is the Jewish context of Christian Baptism. So it was already Jewish practice for infants to be "baptized" when converted to Judaism (though Judaism does not call it "baptism" obviously), so when Christ calls His Church to baptize as essential rite of conversion, and to do this in a specifically Christian sense, by Christ's authority and in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, it would never have occurred to the earliest Christians to withhold baptism from the children of converts, which is why we read of entire households being baptized. And why we consistently see the baptism of infants and small children as the ordinary, normative practice of Christianity.

As such we do not deny Baptism to our children, but bring our children to the lever of regeneration where God has made and attached His sacred promises. And that here, through Baptism, one receives faith because it is God's gracious gift, given entirely apart from our power, strength, or ability. And so the baptized, whether an infant or an old man, is a believer in Jesus Christ. With all the promises which God, in His word, has promised to us.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Tellyontellyon

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Well, children aren't the same as babies. Children can talk and understand... in a beautiful and pure-hearted way!
But babies?
The ritual maiming of infants contributes nothing to their salvation.
Salvation is by faith, not by ritual or tradition.
I don't think the things you said add up to babies being saved, and what about aborted and stillborn babies anyway?
 
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ViaCrucis

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Well, children aren't the same as babies. Children can talk and understand... in a beautiful and pure-hearted way!
But babies?

In the Gospel story the "little children" are παιδία (paidia), infants, toddlers, small children. It's the same word used to speak of Jesus as an eight day old infant being circumcised.

The ritual maiming of infants contributes nothing to their salvation.

Nobody is being maimed in Baptism.

Salvation is by faith, not by ritual or tradition.

Ritual and tradition don't do anything in themselves, no. It's not the rite of Baptism, as though there were something magic about the water, or the formula we use, or any of that. It's not that Baptism saves ex opere operato (Latin for "of the working of the work"), it saves because God attaches His word and promise to it. Thus, as Scripture says, anyone who has been baptized has been baptized into Christ's death, has been clothed with Jesus Christ.

I don't think the things you said add up to babies being saved, and what about aborted and stillborn babies anyway?

We simply have to trust in God's mercy when it comes to aborted or the stillborn. I believe that God is good and entrust these things to Him.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Tellyontellyon

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We simply have to trust in God's mercy when it comes to aborted or the stillborn. I believe that God is good and entrust these things to Him.

-CryptoLutheran

So do you think it's likely that all aborted and stillborn babies are saved? Would God be a good god if they weren't, or if some of them weren't?
 
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ViaCrucis

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So do you think it's likely that all aborted and stillborn babies are saved? Would God be a good god if they weren't, or if some of them weren't?

I certainly hope so.

When it comes to what judgment looks like, or what the ultimate state of things is like, I make it an effort to point out that I don't know what any of that will look like. For example, for all I know an infant who dies stillborn is taken before God and they are turned into fully aware cognizant adults, and then based on their own moral conscious they are judged--do they trust in Christ or do they choose to turn away from Him?

Note, I'm not saying that's what happens. That's simply pure speculation and shouldn't be taken as anything more.

I'm simply trying to stress the point that I don't know what happens, or what it looks like, or how everything will play out.

No one does.

So I simply trust in God. And, in hope, I lean toward a bigger salvation--in fact I hope that everyone will be saved in the end. And when I say everyone, I really do mean everyone. So not just those who died stillborn, but even the most rotten people who ever walked the planet.

Do I know that everyone will be saved? Can I say all will be saved? Absolutely not.

So when I say that I entrust these things to God, and that I am hopeful--I am not speaking with apathy of the situation, I am being sincere. I pray that, in the end, hell (whatever it is) will be empty. But can only put my hope and trust in God, and that He is better than me, knows more than me, and I am confident that God will accomplish far better things than I could ever possibly imagine with my lowly primate brain.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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So do you think it's likely that all aborted and stillborn babies are saved? Would God be a good god if they weren't, or if some of them weren't?
I do not believe we carry the guilt of original sin, so a child or anyone who has not knowing sinned are "safe" and in no need of salvation. The problem is they go to heaven without fulfilling their earthly objective and it cannot be completed in heaven.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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So David was going to hell to be with his son?

2 Samuel 12:23
But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."

Hebrews 11:32
And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
 
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Daniel Marsh

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When do children start going to hell because they are not innocent?


"Could have been referring to the grave and not to heaven" goes an argument I have read.

In Judaism, a child is innocent until they sin themselves. The Grave had two compartments one known as paradise. Hebrews 11:32 shows that David went to Paradise side of the grave.
 
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