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[b]WHO WILL GO WHEN THE LORD COMES?[/b]

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by rollinTHUNDER, Dec 29, 2002.

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  1. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    this thread is no longer available
     
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  2. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    nope
     
  3. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Note that Paul said we're to wait for and remain obedient until the appearing (epiphaneia) of the Lord (Titus 2:13, 2 Timothy 4:8, 1 Timothy 6:14), and that this same appearing or brightness (epiphaneia) must destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:8). There's no 3rd appearing (epiphaneia) of Jesus.

    Paul and Peter said we're to wait with patience and obedience for the appearing (apokalupsis) or coming (apokalupsis) or revelation (apokalupsis) of the Lord (1 Corinthians 1:7; 1 Peter 1:7, 1:13, 4:13), when he will appear or be revealed (apokalupsis) in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God (2 Thessalonians 1:7-8). There's no 3rd appearing (apokalupsis) of Jesus.

    The Apostles promised that when Jesus appears (phaneroo) we shall be like him (1 John 3:2, Colossians 3:4, 1 Peter 5:4), for we shall see (optanomai) him as he is (1 John 3:2). And Jesus said he will shine (phaino) or appear (phaino) or be seen (optanomai) immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:27-31). There's no 3rd appearing or seeing (optanomai) of Jesus (Hebrews 9:28, Revelation 1:7).
    I don't believe the restrainer (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8) can be the Holy Spirit because many of us Christians will still be on the earth during the Antichrist's rule (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13), and no one can be a Christian without the Spirit (Romans 8:9).

    Note that the Bible doesn't show the marriage of the church or the marriage supper happening before or during the tribulation, or in heaven; it doesn't announce the marriage and supper until the 2nd coming, immediately before we descend with Christ at Armageddon (Revelation 19:7-9, 14). "The bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage" (Matthew 25:10). I don't believe the Bible teaches a 3rd coming.

    After the tribulation, I believe the rapture will gather us into the clouds to be married (Revelation 19:7) before Armageddon. The supper will be on the earth after Armageddon (Revelation 19:9, 17; Isaiah 25:5-9).

    Note that the supper on the earth in Isaiah 25:5-9 is spoken of in connection with the same coming in which Jesus "will swallow up death in victory" (Isaiah 25:8); "Then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory" (1 Corinthians 15:54).

    In the pre-trib view, why isn't the Lamb at the marriage of the Lamb (Revelation 19:7) or the supper of the Lamb (Revelation 19:9) at any time we see him during the tribulation (Revelation 5:6-13; Revelation 6:1; Revelation 7:9-17; Revelation 14:1-4)?

    Note that Luke 12:36 is a parable, and that we must "watch" for that coming (Luke 12:36-40, compare Matthew 24:42). There's no 3rd coming.

    "Be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matthew 24:44). Note that Jesus is referring to when "the Son of man cometh," and he says "immediately after the tribulation of those days... they shall see the Son of man coming" (Matthew 24:29-30). Jesus isn't teaching a 3rd coming. Note that he is speaking to the same believers, the same "ye," in Matthew 24:15 that he is speaking to in Matthew 24:44. I believe Matthew 24:44 is a warning against our becoming unfaithful, for Jesus will come like a thief for us only IF we fall asleep spiritually (Revelation 3:3, 1 Thessalonians 5:4-6). Otherwise we would be saying that as long as we're ready and thinking he will come he can't possibly come.
     Note that it doesn't show the "great multitude" that "came out of great tribulation" (Revelation 7:9, 14) getting saved during the tribulation. It's possible they were saved before the tribulation began.

    I believe the "great multitude" that "came out of great tribulation" (Revelation 7:9, 14) will be those of us Christians who will enter the tribulation and die in the war, famine, persecution, and cataclysm of the seals which occur in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6).

    I believe they show that people can "obtain salvation" and enter into the great tribulation without being "appointed to the wrath" of 1 Thessalonians 5:9.

    Overcomers must be faithful unto death in tribulation (Revelation 2:10-11).
    I believe we should all be praying that we might be counted worthy to escape the coming tribulation:

    "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Luke 21:36).

    But note that Jesus is speaking to the same believers, the same "ye," in Luke 21:8-35 that he is speaking to in Luke 21:36.

    I believe we will escape the entire tribulation and stand before the Son of Man (Luke 21:36) only if we die before the tribulation starts (Isaiah 57:1, 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21-23). Many of us Christians will go through the tribulation (Luke 21:31; Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4).

    No one should lose the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) when the rapture doesn't happen before the tribulation. No one should lose the hope even if they are at the point of death in the great tribulation, for our hope for eternal life in Jesus Christ (Titus 1:2, 2:13, 3:7) goes beyond any suffering in this life and any dread of death (Philippians 1:21-23, 1 Corinthians 15:19, John 12:25, Revelation 2:10, Hebrews 2:15).

    "In hope of eternal life"
    "That blessed hope"
    "The hope of eternal life"
    (Titus 1:2, 2:13, 3:7)
     
  4. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hello postrib,
    I knew you wouldn't buy this. Because you're the one who thinks he still has plenty of time left right?? A post trib believer can goof off until he see's the sun darkened, and the moon not give it's light and the stars fall from the sky (Matt. 24:29-31). But These are not the same appearings.

    You seem to think you have plenty of time. So much so, that you can even wait for the sign of His coming in the end of the 7 yr tribulation. I just thought I would give you one scripture to munch on for a while.

    Matt. 24: 48-50 - "But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, "My master is staying away a long time," (49)and he begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. (50)The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of."

    It appears to me, that you post-tribbers are setting a very dangerous trap for yourselves, thinking that you have plenty of time. Satan doesn't even have to mess with you that much, because he is snickering while he watches you bate your own trap. Watch out my friend!! Jesus will come like a thief in the night. I have never heard of a thief that gives you signs of him coming. Be careful of what you ask for, because you just might get it.

    The five wise virgins were ready first, and they were rewarded, but the five foolish ones thought they had plenty of time like you, but they were denied entrance as the door was shut. Doesn't this sound familiar?? Can you afford to be wrong?? 

    There are many different beliefs that people hold on to, and many are unwilling to change because they are standing firm on what they have always believed in, but this too, is a gamble.  Because God is not bound by what we believe.
     
  5. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    How do you know, rollinthunder, that postrib isn't more ready to go and righteous than you? You can't know, only the Father, Son and Holy Spirit can know these things. How do you know that postrib thinks he can live however he wants and has plenty of time to do whatever? I think he just disagrees on the order of Revelation as opposed to the order that you believe, that's all.
     
  6. Wonder

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    Every time someone feels the need to burn this wicked world. I am reminded of serveral Scriptures ..... Gods creation is good....Ask and you shall recieve... do unto other as you want them to do unto you... Malachi chap.4:4-5
    "Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel.
    5 "See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes. 6 He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers; or else I will come and strike the land with a curse."
    If we ask mercy, will we not recieve?
    If we ask Him to cure the land, will He not?
    If we ask for peace, will He make war?
    I do know, that if there is one person here that needs me...I would rather stay and comfort them as to go with Him and worry about others.
    Just my opinion...where are those who will pray as Moses for His people?
    In His Love
    When He comes I want to be working here....not in space :)
     
  7. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    This is a good and valid point you bring up. Only God knows who is ready, as far as being worthy enough.  You could be right as far as the timing and still miss it, but this was not my point.  No man is qualified to determine if another will be worthy enough to be raptured.  I will not be judged or compared to what you have done.  Each of us must stand alone. 

    I was only talking about the timing.  And here is my point:
    If I am wrong and Christ does not rapture the bride before the tribulation, then I have lost nothing because I can very easily go to plan B.  But if a post-tribber is wrong and gets caught off guard, he is in a heep of trouble, including loss of rewards, and not only that, he must now give his head or realize that he will never enter into the Kingdom of heaven.  All I'm saying is that it is much wiser to be ready now, as the scriptures clearly warn us to keep watch.  But hey, I can't force you to be ready, and neither would I want to.  We will all stand alone.  Cheers!!!
     
  8. DeputyDan

    DeputyDan Member

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    I believe that in fact the restrainer is the Holy Spirit.

    I also believe that the rapture is actually GOD calling his spirit home but rather than the spirit leaving the person it indwells, it will take them with him back to God.
     
  9. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    I see what you're saying.  But if we're always ready, then we're always ready eh? ;)  You seem to think however, that there is a chance to give your life to Christ now and be raptured, during the great trib you'll have to die for your belief to make it into the Kingdom, am I perceiving this right?  I know this is what a lot of pretribbers teach from the many many books and movies.
     
  10. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    JesusServant,
    This is a very good question.  I am no longer a pure pre-tribber, but I used to be.  Yes, I believe that the bride will escape all that will happen in the tribulation, because the Bible makes that pretty clear.  The problem I have with the pre-trib theory is that they believe everyone who has ever accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior will be raptured.  Too many people are just assuming that this is true, but the scriptures prove otherwise.  Jesus didn't give us idle warnings of rubbish.

    The Lord has given me a few messages to write about in these last days.  And when He gives me a message, He will also give me a confirmation.  So far, all the confirmations have come in a different way.  When I was writing my rough draft for, "A MYSTERY: The Rapture and the Parable of Ten Virgins" my confirmation came in the form of a dream.  For me, this is very odd.  It's odd because I almost never remember what I dream.  I can remember only one or two dreams per year, and the ones that I do remember are so strange that I can't understand what they are about.  But this dream was very clear, and I believe it is the glue that holds that thread together.  He gave me a scripture in that dream that I wouldn't have thought to use.

    Here it is: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it," [Matt. 16:24-25]. 
    Jesus said the old man must die.  It's one thing to say we believe, but it is another to live those words.  He said not to be hearers only, but doers.  Most christians are not obeying this command, and yet they falsely believe that they will be raptured.  Jesus said, "My Father will honor those that serve me."  But He also said, "If you love me, you will obey me."  The Bible also says that "Everyone born of God overcomes the world."

    These are very, very strong statements!!  I think the first step in overcoming this world is overcoming "self."  We must deny ourselves, be crucified with Christ and let Him reign in our lives.  If He is truely our Lord, then He owns us.  We can't just do as we please and expect that He will rapture us.  This is the difference between the wise virgins and the foolish ones.  Everyone knows that Christ died for us, but what we fail to realize is that the bride of Christ also dies for Him.  The rapture will only be for the good and faithful servants, not the good and faithful believers.  This is why so many will have to be martyred in the tribulation, because they didn't voluntarily lay their lives down before it was too late. The tribulation will give them the oppurtunity to have a second chance to lay it down and surrender, but sadly, this will also be a time when many will fall away from the faith and believe the lie. 

    People that think that all they have to do is believe are sadly mistaken.  Faith without works is dead.  Anyone can talk the talk, but most of these don't walk the walk.  There is a huge wake-up call coming for all the lukewarm.  The bride will escape all the misery (Luke 21:36 / Rev. 3:10), but the rest will still have to be purified.  Christ is wanting us to lay it down and be saved.  If you wait until the tribulation, you will not only suffer loss of reward, but you must also give your head.  It's also sad to see that many believe that they will go into the tribulation and survive.  Half of the worlds population will die, and the ones who live will have to be considered to be sheep when Christ divides the survivors into sheep and goats.  But the sad part about that is:  that those who do survive and are called His sheep, these will also remain in their mortal fleshly bodies, and these are the ones that will repopulate the earth.  What a rip off that would be.  I would rather give my head and be able to come back and reign with the rest of the church under Christ.
     
  11. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    I agree with pretty much everything you've said here except I don't throw the rapture into the parable of the virgins.

    I'll add a thought to the wise virgins parable also.  In the old testament the oil can symbolize the Holy Spirit because they didn't have the Holy Spirit in those times.  So if you're full of the Holy Spirit (enough oil in your lamp (the lamp is representative of the light - you are to be on a hill set apart)) you will be able to see through the darkness (what's really going on in the world), and if you don't have enough oil (Holy Spirit) for your lamp (the light that is your life) you won't make it.  We have to cleanse our lives of that old man, and I know this doesn't happen all at once, but it seems the Holy Spirit (as you allow Him) cleans out one impurity at a time from your life and helps bring you into full understanding and righteousness.  The parable of the virgins is deep and rich in meaning.

    Once again I pose a question.  Jesus said "(Rev 22:12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." so why would I want to fly away rather than receive my reward?  This is where people insert yet a second rapture... it's frustrating when people add so much that isn't in scripture...  I pray that the Body of Christ is raptured before the Great Tribulation IF it is God's will, if it's not then so be it.
     
  12. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    The only thing I would say is: We're not in the old testament times, and the Parable of Ten Virgins also was not written in those times.  I'll leave you with this thought from scripture:

    Luke 12: 35-38 - "Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning, (36)like men waiting for their master to return from a wedding banquet, so that when he comes and knocks they can immediately open the door for him. (37)It will be good for those servants whose master finds them watching when he comes. I tell you the truth, he will dress himself to serve, will have them recline at the table and will come and wait on them. (38)It will be good for those servants whose master finds them ready, even if he comes in the second or third watch in the night."
     
  13. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Note that belief in an imminent pre-trib rapture isn't required to be motivated to live holy and work for the Lord because we never know when we're going to die (Luke 12:20). And we know we will be judged by our works (Matthew 25:26, 30; 2 Corinthians 5:10-11; 1 Peter 1:17; Revelation 2:23; Luke 12:47-48).

    Some say that in order to believe Jesus won't come until after the tribulation one must "say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming" (Matthew 24:48). But if that's when Jesus said he is scheduled to come (Matthew 24:29-31), how is that a delay?

    But what if we believed pre-trib and it doesn't happen; then we could fall into the "My lord delayeth his coming" mindset Jesus warned against (Matthew 24:48-51).

    Note the "if" in the following verse: "IF therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee" (Revelation 3:3). Paul confirms that if we watch for that day it will not overtake us as a thief: "Yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night... But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief... let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch" (1 Thessalonians 5:2, 4, 6).

    In the parable of the 10 virgins, some believe the wise virgins must be taken in a pre-trib rapture. But note that the door is closed at Jesus' coming (Matthew 25:10, compare Luke 13:24-28), which Jesus had just finished saying would be "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31). There's no 3rd coming of Jesus.

    Note that in the Bible, "watching" doesn't mean staring up in the sky waiting for something to happen at any moment; it means to stay awake (Matthew 26:38-41).

    "And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour? Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation" (Matthew 26:40-41). Here Jesus wasn't asking "Could ye not watch with me for the imminent rapture for one hour?" And he wasn't saying "Watch and pray for the imminent rapture that ye enter not into temptation." He was asking "Could ye not stay awake with me for one hour?" And he was saying "Stay awake and pray, that ye enter not into temptation."

    Jesus made clear we must stay spiritually awake for his coming (Matthew 24:42-48, 25:13; Mark 13:35-36), and that his coming to gather us would not be until after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27). There's no 3rd coming of Christ.

    I don't believe the restrainer (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8) can be the Holy Spirit because many of us Christians will still be on the earth during the Antichrist's rule (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13), and no one can be a Christian without the Spirit (Romans 8:9).

    Some believe the tribulation may be for some Christians, but not for the bride of Christ. But there are no Christians outside of the bride, for all believers form a single body (Ephesians 4:4-6), which is the bride of Christ (Ephesians 5:30-32). We Christians who will be in the tribulation are Christians after the cross and after Pentecost, saved in no different way than Christians who have died or will die before the tribulation. Many of us will be slain for the word of God and cry out to the Lord (Revelation 6:9-10); we will have washed our robes in the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 7:14); we will have the testimony of Jesus Christ (Revelation 12:17) and the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:12) and will be in the Lord (Revelation 14:13); if we die, we will enter into heaven itself (Revelation 15:2); some of us will be beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the word of God, and we will all live and reign with Christ (Revelation 20:4).

    I believe we should all be praying that we might be counted worthy to escape the coming tribulation:

    "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Luke 21:36).

    But note that Jesus is speaking to the same believers, the same "ye," in Luke 21:8-35 that he is speaking to in Luke 21:36.

    I believe we will escape the entire tribulation and stand before the Son of Man (Luke 21:36) only if we die before the tribulation starts (Isaiah 57:1, 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21-23). Many of us Christians will go through the tribulation (Luke 21:31; Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4).

    Note that Revelation 3:10 doesn't promise the church a pre-trib rapture, but simply promised the 1st century church of Philadelphia that it would be kept from the hour of trial, which was probably a great persecution in their own time, and they weren't raptured.
     
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