[b]WHICH GOSPEL? KINGDO OR GRACE?

yeshuasavedme · Mar 16, 2007

Dispy said:
Well then give me an example of what "...preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began" would be.

It can't be found in the OT or Gospels. What was given to Paul that had to be kept secret SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN?

Come on now, you surely can do it can't you? Wasn't the filling of the HS prophesied in the OT? Seems to me that Joel spoke of it in Joel 2:28. Wasn't that what happening at Pentecost?

What does "mystery" "secret" mean to you? Would you like to explain my above paragraph to me as to Why God had to raise up Saul/Paul?

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord.

Jesus Christ as the Hidden in God Son of Man was the Revelation Saul had -that, and that only was shown to Saul.

Though He was "Hidden, because He was not come in flesh and therefore not seen in flesh, until His incrnation. yet, He did not speak in secret from the beginning.

and He is the apostle Sent by the Father to all the world as the One Way into the One Kingdom of the Father. He calls all to come into the presence as adopted sons, and He calls others to go tell the world that the Feast is prepared and all may come into the wedding by the New and Living Way.

Mat 13:34¶All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Mat 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

utter;
1) to spit or spew out
2) to be emptied, discharge itself, used of streams
a) to empty, discharge, cast forth, used of rivers and waters
3) to pour forth words, to speak out, utter

1) to hide, conceal, to be hid
2) escape notice
3) metaph. to conceal (that it may not become known)
AV - hide 11, hide (one's) self 2, keep secret 1, secretly 1,
hidden 1; 16

Jesus is quoting from the prophet, Enoch, about Himself as the Hidden in God from the beginning Son of Man who was to come and is come and shall come.

from Enoch 51;
5a For in those days the Elect One shall arise,
2 And he shall choose the righteous and holy from among them:
For the day has drawn nigh that they should be saved.
3 And the Elect One shall in those days sit on My throne,

And his mouth shall pour forth all the secrets [mysteries] of wisdom and counsel:
For the Lord of Spirits hath given (them) to him and hath glorified him.

billychum · Mar 16, 2007

Dispy said:
Well then give me an example of what "...preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began" would be.
It can't be found in the OT or Gospels. What was given to Paul that had to be kept secret SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN?

It could be simply that the gentiles were brought into right relationship through the HS. Which for Israel would be a new revelation or a secret that had now been revealed.

Dispy32817274 said:
Come on now, you surely can do it can't you? Wasn't the filling of the HS prophesied in the OT? Seems to me that Joel spoke of it in Joel 2:28. Wasn't that what happening at Pentecost?

Filling of the HS. yes and pentecost just being one possible example. But HS. made available to gentiles as well?

Billy <><

Apollos1 · Mar 16, 2007

Dispy –

I regret that you think me unfriendly. I am very friendly although I must admit I poke and prod you trying to get straight answers, what with your side-stepping of so many questions.

Just a couple of points before I take off for the weekend…

I have asked you to supply the scripture(s) that DEFINES what a church is, rather than accepting your MAN-MADE definition. I never got that verse. I think you can show what a church was racially AFTER Paul came along, but you can’t define the church from scripture.
Why is that?

I showed from Acts 2 where the church began – people were actually being “called out”, actually being saved. I also gave a list of Acts scriptures (5,7,8,9,12,13,14, 15,18, and 20) that you chose to ignore because apparently you could not find the word “church” in them.

The church consists of penitent believers baptized into Christ, that God had “added to” the body of the saved – Acts 2. The Twelve’s preaching on this day was what “called them out” of the world. You could only argue that these were some type of recycled Jews afterward thrown back into the synagogue and that this could not be the “church” Paul spoke of because there were no Gentiles there. Being a church is not RACE dependent, which is another reason I know that your definition is errant! The church can consist of Jew and Gentile, but you are the one that needs to PROVE a church MUST have both. When you gonna’ do that?

Last time you argued that words such as “Trinity” were man-made. I agree, but how such words are DEFINED is dictated by scripture – just as the word “church”. There is a difference between man-made WORDS and man-made DEFINITIONS. Your church definition is man-made – not the WORD. You gave no scriptural support as to how you define the word.

AT the CROSS versus AFTER Gentiles were converted:
The “middle wall of partition” was removed AT the cross and realized 7 years AFTER. But this doesn’t change WHEN that “wall” was removed. My point is that with the “wall” removed AT the cross, those Jews 7 years BEFORE in Jerusalem were “added” to the church (the body) right after the “wall” came down, and the Gentiles came later. There was no separate “body” – just one. Paul uses “body” as a metaphor while you keep the “wall” for -7- extra years in your theology!

WHY does “all of Israel” need to accept the Messiah BEFORE the promise made to Abraham can be fulfilled? It doesn’t! God can and DID fulfill that promise to Abraham for ALL NATIONS to be blessed, this through Christ (Galatians 3:16), not the “entire” seed – whether or not national “Israel” accepts Him or not. You make requirements that God did not! The past or current state of national “Israel” does not affect God ability to bless the world. John 4:22 – Salvation is “from” (ek – from, out of) the Jews. Salvation came from the Jews through Christ – not “because of” the Jews, that is, because they were or accepted him as a nation. Lol!

More next week… Just did not want you to feel neglected.

Dispy · Mar 17, 2007

Apollos1:
Dispy –
I regret that you think me unfriendly. I am very friendly although I must admit I poke and prod you trying to get straight answers, what with your side-stepping of so many questions.

Dispy replies:
You may be a frindly sort of guy, buy your hatred for mid-Acts dispies really comes through very strong.

I respond to everything you write, just because I do not respond in the manner you like, you accuse me of "side-stepping."
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Apollos1:
Just a couple of points before I take off for the weekend…

I have asked you to supply the scripture(s) that DEFINES what a church is, rather than accepting your MAN-MADE definition. I never got that verse. I think you can show what a church was racially AFTER Paul came along, but you can’t define the church from scripture.
Why is that?

Dispy replies:
There is not one verse of scripture that says that the Church, the Body of Christ, started with Paul. Just as there is not one verse of scripture says that the Church, the Body of Christ, started at Pentecost. So, you show me your verse, then I will show mine. Neither one of us can do it.

Was there a Church at Pentecost. Yes, It consisted of Jews and proselytes that came to Jerusalem to keep the Jewish feast day of Pentecost. That Jewish Church was required to celebrate the Jewish feastday of Pentecost yearly. Can you show me, chapter and verse, where members of the Body of Christ celebrate the Jewish feastday of Pentecost? If you can, chapter and verse PLEASE.

Being the Good Lord gave me a mind to reason with, I came to my conclusion from studying "The Word" rightly divided. How did I arrive at that conclusion? Let me explain again. Then go to you Bible, and see if what I say is right.

God set the Gentiles aside at the Tower of Babel in Genesis 11. Right or wrong?

God raised up Abram, a Gentile, to make unto Himself a people - Israel. Right or wrong.

Israel, as a nation, are "called out ones," and referred to as "the church in the wilderness" in Acts 7:38. Right or Wrong?

That "church" in the wilderness did not consist of Jews and Gentiles on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law. Right or wrong?

Therefore, that church cannot be consider "The Church, The Body of Christ." Right or wrong?

Therefore, I must conclude that there is more then one church mentioned in the Bible. Right or Wrong?

God promised Abram, that through his physical seed, all the families (nations) of the earth would be blessed. Right or wrong?

God told Moses to tell the children of Israel that if they obeyed his commandments, then they would become a nation of priests. Right or wrong?

God promised the children of Israel that One would come and sit upon David's throne, and it would be an everlasting kingdom upon the earth. Right or wrong?

Jesus came to the Jews (lost sheep of the house of Israel) only. Right or wrong?

When Jesus came to earth, to fulfill the OT promises to Israel, they cried: "We will not have this man rule over us, Crucify Him." Right or wrong?

Peter in Acts 3 accused his Jewish listeners of the murder of Jesus. Right or wrong?

Peter offered the return of Jesus if Israel, as a nation, would repent of the murder of Jesus. Right or wrong?

Israel, as a nation, did not repent of the murder of Jesus. Right or wrong?

With Israel's rejection of their King and His kingdom, the kingdom could not be established. Right or wrong?

Therefore, God set the nation of Israel aside temporarily. Right or wrong?

In Romans 11:32 we learn that God had set both the Jews and Gentiles aside so that He could have mercy upon all. Right or wrong?

In Ephesians 2:15 is when we learn that got made "one new man (a new creation)." Right or wrong?

In Ephesians 2:16 we learn that "the one new man" is now "one body" of believers. Right or wrong?

In Ephesians 6:30 we learn that those that are in the "one body" become part of His Body, of His flesh, and of His bones. Right or wrong?

Therefore, we can NOW say that we are members of THE BODY OF CHRIST, and consists of believing Jews and Gentiles, on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law. Right or wrong?

Those at Pentecost did not have any knowledged of what was revealed to Paul, therefore, no one can say that this "one body" existed at Pentecost. Right or wrong?

For anyone to say that "the Body of Christ" Jew and Gentile on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law, existed in Acts 2, they would have to read that into it, because it isn't in Acts 2. Again I ask, would you read the Laws of Moses into the Garden of Eden? If one reads future revelations to Paul, that were kept secret since the world began, then that same one can read the Laws of Moses into the Garden of Eden. Do you?
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Apollos1:
I showed from Acts 2 where the church began – people were actually being “called out”, actually being saved. I also gave a list of Acts scriptures (5,7,8,9,12,13,14, 15,18, and 20) that you chose to ignore because apparently you could not find the word “church” in them.

Dispy replies:
It has only been your commentary that says that the Church, the Body of Christ, started at Pentecost. (If I thought that you wrote by Divine revelation, then I would believe every word you wrote.) Yet, you cannot show me were those at Pentecost were Jews and Gentiles, on equal footing, without distincation, and not under the Law. Isn't that what the Church, the Body of Christ, consists of? (I don't have a chapter and verse for that either, so don't ask for one.) So, where do we first learn that the Jews and Gentiles are NOW on equal footing, and without distinction? Did John the Baptist, Jesus and the 12 disciples ever preach it, or did we ever learn it, PRIOR to the raising up of Saul/Paul?

Why do you read revelations to Paul, "that were kept secret since the world began," into Acts 2? Paul wasn't even saved until at least 7 years after Pentecost. If you can do that, then, you by the same rule of logic you can read the Laws of Moses into The Garden of Eden.

There was no Church known as "the Body of Christ" prior to the conversion of Saul/Paul in Acts 9, so how can you read it into the Bible before it became known? To understand what church is spoken of in the Bible, on must know which church is being addressed. Therefore, I ask you to show me the church, the Body of Christ, Jew and Gentile on eual footing, without distinction, and not under the Law, PRIOR to Paul's conversion. Being I don't believe your words are Divinely inspired, I will need some Divinely inspired words for you to prove it.
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Apollos1:
The church consists of penitent believers baptized into Christ, that God had “added to” the body of the saved – Acts 2. The Twelve’s preaching on this day was what “called them out” of the world. You could only argue that these were some type of recycled Jews afterward thrown back into the synagogue and that this could not be the “church” Paul spoke of because there were no Gentiles there. Being a church is not RACE dependent, which is another reason I know that your definition is errant! The church can consist of Jew and Gentile, but you are the one that needs to PROVE a church MUST have both. When you gonna’ do that?

Dispy replies:
The "one body" of Ephesians 2:16 consists of believing set aside Jews and Gentiles. Israel, at Pentecost was still not in a set aside condition, and the Gentiles were still "outside the gate." So there isn't "the one body" present at Pentecost. Peter, in Acts 3, is offering the return of Jesus, and restitution (restoration) of all things, if they would just repent of the murder of Jesus. I cannot find anywhere in Paul's Epistles where he offers an earthly kingdom to members of the One Body, the Body of Christ. Peter, at Pentecost was offering the return of Jesus, and restitution of all things, to the present Jews and proselytes. Not one word is spoken about a Church, the Body of Christ.

I will agree that the Church today, the Body of Christ, is not RACE dependant.
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[ b]Apollos1:[/b]
Last time you argued that words such as “Trinity” were man-made. I agree, but how such words are DEFINED is dictated by scripture – just as the word “church”. There is a difference between man-made WORDS and man-made DEFINITIONS. Your church definition is man-made – not the WORD. You gave no scriptural support as to how you define the word.

Dispy replies:
The word "Trinity" is not in the Bible and is a man-made word. It is defined by man made words.

The word "Church" is a Biblical name. and is defined by being "a called out assembly."

The words "Body of Chist" is also called a church, and is defined by what it consists of. It consists of believing Jews and Gentiles on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law. There was not church that fit that discription PRIOR to the raising up of Saul/Paul.
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Apollos1:
AT the CROSS versus AFTER Gentiles were converted:
The “middle wall of partition” was removed AT the cross and realized 7 years AFTER. But this doesn’t change WHEN that “wall” was removed. My point is that with the “wall” removed AT the cross, those Jews 7 years BEFORE in Jerusalem were “added” to the church (the body) right after the “wall” came down, and the Gentiles came later. There was no separate “body” – just one. Paul uses “body” as a metaphor while you keep the “wall” for -7- extra years in your theology!

Dispy replies:
Ephesians 2:16 says: "...by the cross...," which mean "because of" or "as the result of" the cross.

Tell me now, Can we act on today what will be revealed 7 years from now? I don't think so, and I don't believe you do either. Therefore, How can thost at Pentecost act on what was "kept secret since the world began," and not revealed until at least 7 years later?

Today believers are positionally already positioned in Christ's body (Eph.5:30).

Tell me, Where, PRIOR to Paul's conversion, do we find that the "middle wall of partition" came down. Saul/Paul was converted in Acts 9, as least 7 years after Pentecost, and Peter didn't learn it until Acts 10? Am I going to an answer on this one?
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Apollos1:
WHY does “all of Israel” need to accept the Messiah BEFORE the promise made to Abraham can be fulfilled? It doesn’t! God can and DID fulfill that promise to Abraham for ALL NATIONS to be blessed, this through Christ (Galatians 3:16), not the “entire” seed – whether or not national “Israel” accepts Him or not. You make requirements that God did not! The past or current state of national “Israel” does not affect God ability to bless the world. John 4:22 – Salvation is “from” (ek – from, out of) the Jews. Salvation came from the Jews through Christ – not “because of” the Jews, that is, because they were or accepted him as a nation. Lol!

Dispy replies:
So that God can keep His promise to Abram back in Genesis 12:1-3.

The world is not blessed today because Israel has become the light to the Gentiles, but we are blessed inspite of Israel's rejection of their King and His kingdom. AFTER the rapture of the Church, the Body of Christ, then the promise made to Abram will be fulfilled through Israel, as a nation. You can see how the would will be blesss through Israel in Revelation 7:4-17.

Apollos1
More next week… Just did not want you to feel neglected.

Dispy replies:
Hope you have a good week-end. I wouldn't even feel neglected even if you never responded again. You can neglect me anytime you wish.

Apollos1 · Mar 19, 2007

I continue once again with my lengthy exchange with Dispy. I continue where I left off, although he has posted a reply in that time. I will circle back to respond to that error when time allows.

Dispy replies:
The purpose of the Cross was not made know until the conversion of Saul/Paul in Acts 7. At least 7 years AFTER Pentecost.
Prior to Israel being set aside (which we don't know until after the conversion of Saul/Paul), salvation was still of the Jews, as Jesus said in John 4:22.

The purpose of the cross and it full impact to ALL nations (Jew and Gentile) was indeed known before Sauls conversion. All you need to do is read the exchange I have had above with Jerry Shugart. As he, you may debate whether that purpose was preached or understood, but you will fare no better than he.

The Jews were never set aside as dispys define it. The Jews, along with Gentiles, were and are still being saved. Unfortunately for you, you are dependent on national rejection of Christ, national rejection by God of Israel, and national redemption for your theological theories to function from a NON-nation!

As for John 4:22, salvation was to come from (Greek ek) the Jews as it did via Jesus Christ. That salvation was never dependent upon (of) the nation of Israel nationally only one Jew was needed - the seed Jesus Christ.
I depend upon Him for my salvation not that nation.

Dispy replies:
WE DON'T LEARN THAT [Jew & Gentile are ONE in Christ] UNTIL AFTER SAUL/PAUL IS CONVERTED IN ACT 9.

How will you prove this of certainty? The plan was always that ALL nations of the earth would be saved in Christ, and therefore were always going to be one.
(cf. Mt. 24:14, 28:18-20, Lk. 24:46-47, Acts 1:8, 2:39).

But what may or may not have been understood does NOT change the reality of that which Christ made possible AT THE CROSS. One in Christ was made possible at THAT time. And then the ground-breaking of Jew and Gentile becoming ONE was accomplished by the HS through. Through through PETER in Acts 10!
Then it was by men of Cyprus and Cyrene in Acts 11:20 who spread that further in Antioch all before Paul. Oh my!
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Dispy replies:
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE quote for me what Peter said in Acts 2 that changed all that. YOU CANNOT DO IT, OR WILL YOU DO IT.

Lol! Here it is

Acts 2:38,39 Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call unto him.

To the best of any scriptural understanding, NONE of those Jews in the synagogue had their sins forgiven and had not been baptized IN THE NAME (by the authority) OF JESUS CHRIST. Those Jews that received his words received something new and were added to something new the church !
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Dispy replies:
Were they [Jews in the synagogue in Jerusalem] not a "called out" group.

As I said before, those Jews are never called the church in NT scripture! Can you cite even one example? No? I did not think you could! Context my dear fellow!

Those I describe directly above, who received [Peters] words and were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ were added to something new and different the church. The same group called such in Acts 5,7,8,9,12,13,14, 15,18, and 20!

Dispy · Mar 19, 2007

Apollos1:

I have very good reasons for not wishing to dialogue with or, or would I miss you if you never responded again to anything I post.

The following is my primary reason:

From my post #110

Dispy posted:
The church at Pentecost was a Jewish Church and it members worshipped in a synogogue.

Apollos 1 answers:
PRIOR to the CROSS – yes. So what? After Peter preached the first gospel sermon – that ALL changed. “The church” of God came into existence. Acts 2.

Dispy replies:
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE quote for me what Peter said in Acts 2 that changed all that. YOU CANNOT DO IT, OR WILL YOU DO IT.
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The following is to how you replied:

Apollos1 said:
Dispy replies:
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE quote for me what Peter said in Acts 2 that changed all that. YOU CANNOT DO IT, OR WILL YOU DO IT.

Lol! Here it is…

Acts 2:38,39 –Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call unto him.

To the best of any scriptural understanding, NONE of those Jews in the synagogue had their sins forgiven and had not been baptized “IN THE NAME (by the authority) OF JESUS CHRIST”. Those Jews “that received his words” received something new and were “added to” something new… the church !

YOUR REPLY DOES NOT EVEN COME CLOSE TO WHAT I ASKED. I REST MY CASE.

Apollos1 · Mar 20, 2007

Dispy –

This is a separate entry from my “series” of replies to answer your last and lengthy post #109/110 - that I shall finish answering this week.

Let’s take a look at what your saying here in post #126 above…

Dispy posted:
The church at Pentecost was a Jewish Church and it members worshipped in a synogogue.

Apollos 1 answered:
PRIOR to the CROSS – yes. So what? After Peter preached the first gospel sermon – that ALL changed. “The church” of God came into existence. Acts 2.

Dispy requested:
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE quote for me what Peter said in Acts 2 that changed all that. YOU CANNOT DO IT, OR WILL YOU DO IT.

Apollos1 replied:
Lol! Here it is…

Acts 2:38,39 –Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call unto him.

To the best of any scriptural understanding, NONE of those Jews in the synagogue had their sins forgiven and had not been baptized “IN THE NAME (by the authority) OF JESUS CHRIST”. Those Jews “that received his words” received something new and were “added to” something new… the church !

Dispy complained:
YOUR REPLY DOES NOT EVEN COME CLOSE TO WHAT I ASKED. I REST MY CASE.
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<Sigh> Dispy – you just don’t get it, do you?

Christ had died on the cross. Man’s salvation was procured! The old “Law” was finished. ALL men had access to God through Christ – they can finally be saved - “called out”.
Christ sent the HS on Pentecost to guide the Twelve into all truth – revelation never before seen - the will of God made known.
The Twelve tell the gathered crowd WHAT TO DO to be saved - Acts 2:38.
Repentance and remission of sins was preached. Thousands obeyed those words and were saved for the first time.

Those that obeyed were the “called out” – the church! This was the first time for all of this and it was never done before! This was something new and different and unique.

Free your mind man! Free your mind of that dispensational clutter to see what Christ accomplished on the cross and what the HS performed on Pentecost in Acts 2!

The focus in on Christ – not on Paul !!! FREE YOUR MIND !!!!

Apollos1 · Mar 20, 2007

I continue with the installments of answers to your prior and lengthy post #109/110

Dispy replies:
The group that believed that Jesus was the Christ, the long promised Messiah of Israel. That is the group that Saul persecuted, prior to his conversion.

The group that Saul persecuted had the same faith as Saul came to have later Galatians 1:23.
The faith was generated in Acts 2 and was based on what the Twelve preached. This includes: Jesus was approved of God (vs.22), David prophesied that God would resurrect one to sit on Davids/Gods throne (vs. 30-31), the Twelve were witnesses of that resurrection (vs. 32), proof Jesus was on Gods right hand (vs. 33), Jesus is Lord and Christ (vs. 36 Do you even comprehend what this means?), and repentance and water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ (vs. 38).

How odd - once again! Did the Twelve preach believe Jesus was the Messiah? No! The Twelve preached that the Son of God, who had died on the cross and was resurrected according to prophecy, was now both Lord and Christ and these Jews needed to repent and be baptized to have their sins forgiven.

You keep attempting to interject things that the passages make no mention of ex. Messiah ! Just how weak is your theology that it can only subsist with conjecture and innuendo inserted into almost every passage discussed?

What did they do? They sold everything they had, and had all things common. (Read Acts 4:32-37) Where is this group now? Why did Paul have to take up collections "for the poor saints at Jerusalem?

The church of Acts 2 grew! 3,000 that day in Acts 2:41 and then Luke records 5,000 men alone in Acts 4:4 (so much for your idea of national rejection, huh?).

Later the CHURCH was scattered abroad in Acts 8:3-4 because of the persecution in Jerusalem and went about preaching the word. The CHURCH went out preaching the word! To the Samaritans in Acts 8 and then to the Gentiles Acts 10 and 11:20!

AFTER the word spread to the Gentiles, Paul was found by Barnabas and brought to Antioch to help with the church there. In Acts 13:4 Paul is at last chosen to go to the Gentiles. In reference to getting the word to the Gentiles, Paul is a Johnny-come-lately! I know this has got to be quite a rub for dispys.

(I do not know why it is important to you, but your answer in reference to the poor saints in Jerusalem is found in Acts 11:27-30. If I need to explain this situation to you, just let me know, okay?)
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Are you saying that God did not set the Gentiles aside in Genesis 11, or that God did not set the nation of Israel aside temporarily (Romans 11:7-11)? Isn't Romans 11:32 referring to both Jews and Gentiles?

If I understand what you mean by set aside, I disagree with your application in reference to these scriptures. Romans 11:32 is speaking in reference to Jew and Gentile. Define set aside, make your application, and we can continue.
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Dispy replies:
Didn't John the Baptist preach "repentance and remission" of sins before the Cross? Or wasn't that yet a reality?

No, John did not preach remission of sins! And no, it wasnt a reality yet!
You, as most, do not know what John preached.

Luke 3:3 says John preached the baptism of repentance unto remission of sins.
This baptism was unto (looking forward to the time of) remission of sins. John came to prepare Christs way and to get the people ready for His coming. John did not come to remit their sins as only Christ could do that.

If you think remission of sin was possible BEFORE Christ died on the cross, please explain HOW! NO ONE has been able to explain this away up to this day.
Paul says that John baptized with a baptism of repentance Acts 19:4.
Repentance AND remission of sins were preached FIRST at Jerusalem Luke 24:47.
I say you have a number of scriptures to harmonize if you still disagree.

BUT, your two questions as quoted above did not answer my question (nice side-stepping). Denying your man-made definition again, I have shown that Christ having died on the cross made repentance and remission of sins possible. (Something that is, how shall we say, not under the Law!) With this a reality, ALL men were in a position to be called out no longer under the Law.

Thus the CHURCH was a reality in Acts 2 on Pentecost! If not, why not?
(I am showing that YOUR definition of church is time and racially biased!)
The CHURCH is the called out not Jewish and Gentile called out - - -
just those called out
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Dispy replies:
If the word "church" has to be specifically mentioned in order for it to be recognized, then how can you say that the Chruch, the Body of Chrsit, started at Pentecost?

I have never insisted on such. What I have said is that this group of penitent baptized believers in Acts 2 was called the church starting in Acts 5:11 and time and time again by the HS in the book of Acts while it GREW, during the time Gentiles were converted and past. Your man-made designations and differences for another distinct and separate church are never seen! This is 30 years of church!

That Paul refers metaphorically to the church as the body (cf. Eph. 1:22-23, Col. 1:18) does not mean there was some second institution created. This is INductive reasoning. This YOU are yet to prove. Just as you are yet to prove there is some second gospel floating around out there.

But again, your response side-stepped the point Racial make-up does not dictate what the church is. The church is the called out with race being immaterial.
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Dispy replies:
[THE CHURCH in ACTS 2] WAS STRICTLY A JEWISH CHURCH WITH JEWISH MEMBERS THAT WERE STILL UNDER THE LAW.

When convenient for your theology the Jews have the gospel of the kingdom. When otherwise convenient, the Jews were under the Law. How nice you can switch back and forth at your convenience! DID THEY HAVE BOTH ???

Back in Acts 2 - WHERE is repentance and remission of sins found in the Law?
Those Jews who gladly received his words had something NEW. The penitent believers who were baptized were added to the saved. It reads to me that the other Jews under the Law, who received not his words, were still lost!

But the Law was nailed to the cross. With the death of the testator came a new testament for ALL people. It was this testament that the Twelve began to execute on that day of Pentecost in Acts 2. This is the testament (covenant, if you please) that Paul was also a minister of.

No innuendo here no interjection of non-context thoughts just the plain GOSPEL facts!

Dispy · Mar 20, 2007

Apollos1 said:
Got a scriptural definition/verse for your church yet?

Didn't you see it yet, it was right under your verse that said: "The Body of Christ, Jew and Gentile on equal footing, and not under the Law, was formed at Penteost."

I thought that was "your proof text."

A Brother In Christ · Mar 20, 2007

Apollos1 said:
Dispy

This is a separate entry from my series of replies to answer your last and lengthy post #109/110 - that I shall finish answering this week.

Lets take a look at what your saying here in post #126 above

Dispy posted:
The church at Pentecost was a Jewish Church and it members worshipped in a synogogue.

Apollos 1 answered:
PRIOR to the CROSS yes. So what? After Peter preached the first gospel sermon that ALL changed. The church of God came into existence. Acts 2.

Dispy requested:
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE quote for me what Peter said in Acts 2 that changed all that. YOU CANNOT DO IT, OR WILL YOU DO IT.

Apollos1 replied:
Lol! Here it is

Acts 2:38,39 Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call unto him.

To the best of any scriptural understanding, NONE of those Jews in the synagogue had their sins forgiven and had not been baptized IN THE NAME (by the authority) OF JESUS CHRIST. Those Jews that received his words received something new and were added to something new the church !

Dispy complained:
YOUR REPLY DOES NOT EVEN COME CLOSE TO WHAT I ASKED. I REST MY CASE.
---------------------------------------------
<Sigh> Dispy you just dont get it, do you?

Christ had died on the cross. Mans salvation was procured! The old Law was finished. ALL men had access to God through Christ they can finally be saved - called out.
Christ sent the HS on Pentecost to guide the Twelve into all truth revelation never before seen - the will of God made known.
The Twelve tell the gathered crowd WHAT TO DO to be saved - Acts 2:38.
Repentance and remission of sins was preached. Thousands obeyed those words and were saved for the first time.

Those that obeyed were the called out the church! This was the first time for all of this and it was never done before! This was something new and different and unique.

Free your mind man! Free your mind of that dispensational clutter to see what Christ accomplished on the cross and what the HS performed on Pentecost in Acts 2!

The focus in on Christ not on Paul !!! FREE YOUR MIND !!!!

Indwelling of God inside of us... is were the Holy Spirit puts us into Christ....

thus the Church as the body and Christ as the head.

beginning of the church

to the Jew then the gentile .... romans....

Dispy · Mar 21, 2007

Apollos1:
Can we act today on what will be revealed/made know to us 7 years from now.

If you can show me/prove to me that we can then then I will be forced to believe every word that you write.

A Brother In Christ · Mar 21, 2007

Apollos1 said:
Dispy

This is a separate entry from my series of replies to answer your last and lengthy post #109/110 - that I shall finish answering this week.

Lets take a look at what your saying here in post #126 above

Dispy posted:
The church at Pentecost was a Jewish Church and it members worshipped in a synogogue.

Apollos 1 answered:
PRIOR to the CROSS yes. So what? After Peter preached the first gospel sermon that ALL changed. The church of God came into existence. Acts 2.

Dispy requested:
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE quote for me what Peter said in Acts 2 that changed all that. YOU CANNOT DO IT, OR WILL YOU DO IT.

Apollos1 replied:
Lol! Here it is

Acts 2:38,39 Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call unto him.

To the best of any scriptural understanding, NONE of those Jews in the synagogue had their sins forgiven and had not been baptized IN THE NAME (by the authority) OF JESUS CHRIST. Those Jews that received his words received something new and were added to something new the church !

Dispy complained:
YOUR REPLY DOES NOT EVEN COME CLOSE TO WHAT I ASKED. I REST MY CASE.
---------------------------------------------
<Sigh> Dispy you just dont get it, do you?

Christ had died on the cross. Mans salvation was procured! The old Law was finished. ALL men had access to God through Christ they can finally be saved - called out.
Christ sent the HS on Pentecost to guide the Twelve into all truth revelation never before seen - the will of God made known.
The Twelve tell the gathered crowd WHAT TO DO to be saved - Acts 2:38.
Repentance and remission of sins was preached. Thousands obeyed those words and were saved for the first time.

Those that obeyed were the called out the church! This was the first time for all of this and it was never done before! This was something new and different and unique.

Free your mind man! Free your mind of that dispensational clutter to see what Christ accomplished on the cross and what the HS performed on Pentecost in Acts 2!

The focus in on Christ not on Paul !!! FREE YOUR MIND !!!!

Indwelling of God inside of us... is were the Holy Spirit puts us into Christ....

thus the Church as the body and Christ as the head.

beginning of the church

to the Jew then the gentile .... romans....

A Brother In Christ · Mar 21, 2007

Dispy said:
Apollos1:
Can we act today on what will be revealed/made know to us 7 years from now.

If you can show me/prove to me that we can then then I will be forced to believe every word that you write.

no, I doubt you will be alive in 7 yrs thou ... no disrespect

Dispy · Mar 21, 2007

Dispy said:
Apollos1:
Can we act today on what will be revealed/made know to us 7 years from now?

If you can show me/prove to me that we can then then I will be forced to believe every word that you write.

A Brother In Christ said:
no, I doubt you will be alive in 7 yrs thou ... no disrespect

Well, tell me what can you, Apollos1, and I can act on today that will be made known 7 years from now.

Dispy · Mar 21, 2007

Apollos1, I am trying to figure out your logic in believing that the Church, the Body of Christ started at Pentecost. I fail in trying to understand it.

My search led me to the following:

According to Acts 7:38, Israel was a "church in the wilderness." That church consisted of the children of Israel.

In Exodus 20 we learn of the 10 Commandments given to Moses for the children of Israel, as their instructions in righteousness.

God, in Exodus 25-27 instructed Moses, and the children of Israel, to make a tabernacle (tent) as a place to worship Him. Later the tent was replaced by a Temple.

God appointed judges to rule over Israel, but they wanted to be ruled by a king just as those heathen nations around them. Therefore God gave them a king by the name of Saul. Saul was followed by King David. We know that Jesus will one day sit upon David's throne, as King of Kings, and the 12 disciples will be given 12 thrones and judge the 12 tribes of Israel.

When Jesus was born into the world, He was born "under the Law." He came to fulfill the Law. He would not have been able to fulfill the Law had it not been in effect.

Jesus and those that followed Him worshipped in the Temple. The Pharisees and Sadusees were the religious leaders of Israel. Jesus, in Matthew 23:1-3 told the multitude and His disciples that the scribes and Pharisees sat in Moses' (the Law givers) seat, and "observe and do" what they said.

This tells me that the followers of Jesus still worshipped in the Temple, right along with the Jews that did not believe that Jesus was the Christ. I would find it hard to believe that Jesus started a different"
church" (temple/synogogue). There is not scripture to support that notion. Also, I cannot find any scriptural support that a new church was started at Pentecost. Those believers at Pentecost were added to the Church that already existed. They were numbered with the followers of Jesus that worshipped in the synogogue/temple.

According to the parable of the householder, in Matthew 23:33-46 that the kingdom that was promised the nation of Israel, of which they were the leaders, would be taken from them, and be given to a nation that would bring forth fruit (vs. 43). I find that nation in Revelation 7:4-8, and their fruit mentioned in 9-14.

Peter, at Pentecost, was not saying about the things that were happening were a new church, he was saying in vss. 15-20 that the Tribulation, that Joel prophesied, had begun. Nothing is said about a "new church." What was happening in Acts 2:38 is what John the Baptist spoke of in Matthew 3:11. Further,

My question to you now is that how can a joint body of believers (Jews and Gentiles) be found at Pentecost, if at Pentecost it was Jews only, under the Law, and later the Gentiles were added, (who were not under the Law), How can that be the same church? Where do you ever learn that the Law was no longer in effect PRIOR TO PAUL???

Unless you can come up with some evidence from script that refutes what I just say, I see no reason to dialogue with you any further. Just continue on in you ignorance.

Apollos1 · Mar 21, 2007

This is my latest installment of replies.

I have answered your query in reference to the 7 years below, so be certain to look for that

Dispy said - Peter never said one word about salvation through the shed blood of Christ. He accused them of the murder of Jesus, and that it was something to be repented of (Acts 3:12-21).

You once again base a conclusion on silence of the scriptures.
But Peter did not have to. The Jews knew all there was to know about blood sacrifices they had been practicing such for 1500 years! Without such an understanding, Paul in Hebrews 9:22 could not have reasoned with them that that without the shedding of blood, there is no REMISSION. (cf. Acts 2:38, Luke 24:47).

Now Dispy, I know that you do not view the NT as a single unit of knowledge. Passages such as 2 Peter 1:3, 2 Tim. 3:16, 1John9, and Jude 1:3 mean little to you. You must chop the NT up in pieces and parse it so that you may jam your theological parts into the cracks you think exist there.

But Jesus said He would send the HS to guide the Apostles into ALL truth not just part of it. John 14:26, 16:13, Luke 24:49, Acts 1:2,8. YOU dont believe this!

You dont think and you dont understand that the disciples had access to ALL truth through the HS. YOU dont believe anything was known until the exact point at which it was written.

Acts 2:40 - And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation.

What was Peter telling them? YOU seem to know what was taking place during all the silence of scripture tell me what Peter said here !!! There were probably a few of them there that wouldnt accept a thing Peter said and waited oh say -7- years until it was written down somewhere before they would accept what was said. I dont have to wait 7 years to know or act on anything if the HS is guiding me into ALL truth! LOL!

What you have been UNABLE TO DENY is that salvation was offered and it was real on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2. People were called out of sin and out of the world to be saved by the authority of Jesus Christ. You dont have a clue what group they were in. You cant deal with this and you have not dealt with it! All you can do is complain that there were no Gentiles in the church yet.
--------------------------------------------
Dispy replies:
Yes, they [Jews in Acts 2] were added to the Church alright, but it was to the believing group that was already in the Jewish Church that existed at that time.

LOL! The church within a church ??? Or is that a church within the synagogue?
That would put the saved church inside the lost church. We can call this the church-church ! How goofy is this going to get? LOL!
---------------------------------------------------
Dispy replies:
Read Acts 1:10 - 11; 3:20; Zac 14:4, Matt. 24:27-31. Sure looks to me that Jesus is coming back.

This is more of your side-stepping. You never addressed the scriptures I presented and then you addressed a point that was not made in the first place.

Of course Jesus is coming back but thats not the point. Will there be an earthly kingdom? Where is Christ reigning now? These were the points! Try to keep up.

Apollos1 said - Christ doesnt have to reign ON the earth to reign. He may place His throne wherever it please Him. Acts 2 and 3, as well as 1 Corinthians 15:25 tell us Christ will remain in heaven until He comes to gather His own not to return for an earthly rule. Of course YOUR position has Christ reigning over NOTHING as of now Christ is NOT King of Kings according to your doctrine and your doctrine makes liars out of the prophets (such as Daniel 2:44) and buffoons out of Deity who planned mans salvation! Doesnt it ??!!!

If you cant answer you SIDE-STEP! Right?

Will He return to fulfill OT prophesies? YES HE WILL!

He already has fulfilled the OT prophecies ! Luke 24:44.
Christ will return only for the kingdom and then deliver it to the Father 1 Corinthians 15:25. Then - comes the end.

But when He returns, Israel will recognize Him as the King f the Jews.

I have heard this yah-yah before. It did not work the FIRST time, BUT the plan is going to work the SECOND time. Right?
It doesnt matter how it makes false prophets out of those God selected and makes Deity incompetent in the first attempted execution of the plan.

Much of what you say above is pure FALSEHOOD. Other then that, it doesn't deserve further comment. I'll just keep my thought to myself.

LOL ! I can see why you would

Apollos1 · Mar 23, 2007

Dispy –

I will take a break from my methodical replies to you over-length post #109/110 to answer a few points from your last post to me.

Dispy said - According to the parable of the householder, in Matthew 23:33-46 that the kingdom that was promised the nation of Israel, of which they were the leaders, would be taken from them, and be given to a nation that would bring forth fruit (vs. 43). I find that nation in Revelation 7:4-8, and their fruit mentioned in 9-14.

First, you have a typo there – it is Matthew 21, not 23.
Second, this passage and nothing else you stated proves that the kingdom was promised to the nation of Israel. You quite often “beg the question”.
Third, the Jews had religious leaders, some over each synagogue, but not “national” leaders, as you so desperately want to make them out to be. There was no nation, no national leaders, no national army, no national treasury – nothing national.
Fourth, the “nation” (Greek – ethnos) spoken of in verse 43 is a spiritual nation. I will not take the time to prove that to you here. You certainly made no connection between this verse and Revelation 7.

Dispy said - Peter, at Pentecost, was not saying about the things that were happening were a new church, he was saying in vss. 15-20 that the Tribulation, that Joel prophesied, had begun. Nothing is said about a "new church." What was happening in Acts 2:38 is what John the Baptist spoke of in Matthew 3:11.

First, Luke is telling us (in Acts 2) that “the church” is coming into existence. This is the first time ever that anyone was “added to” the saved in the history of the world.

Second, the “tribulation” is no where in the context of this passage or in the quotation of Joel that Peter uses in Acts 2. Briefly,
Verse 16 – “THIS is THAT…” - spoken before by the prophet Joel.
What was taking place? The HS came to guide the Apostles into all truth, miraculous manifestations and miraculous revelations.
Verse 17 – “I will pour out my spirit…” Sounds like verses 1-4 to me.
Verses 17-18 tell us of methods of revelation of God’s word.
Verse 19-20 tells us of methods of confirmation of revelation. (cf. Heb. 2:3-4).
Verse 21 – Whosoever (Jew or Gentile) “shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” THIS is THAT ! Salvation – calling on the name of the Lord! Never before seen – NEW! …end of Joel’s words.

Third, see my last post for info on John and his baptism. John never told anyone to “call upon the name of the Lord” for salvation. John never baptized anyone “in the name of Jesus Christ…” – Acts 2:38! You assume too much. You’ve got it all wrong… still !
In addition, you are not going to find “calling on the name of the Lord…” or “in the name of Jesus Christ” applicable to anything or anyone “under the Law”. This is just another indicator of how you can know this is separate and apart from Judaism!

Dispy - My question to you now is that how can a joint body of believers (Jews and Gentiles) be found at Pentecost, if at Pentecost it was Jews only, under the Law, and later the Gentiles were added, (who were not under the Law), How can that be the same church? Where do you ever learn that the Law was no longer in effect PRIOR TO PAUL???

First, you continue to “beg the question”! You have offered nada, zip-o-la to show this as the Bible definition of anything.
Second, Jew and Gentile IN the church is not the prerequisite for having a church. Access to God through Christ FOR Jew and Gentile was the only prerequisite – having the conditions ready to “call out” man. This is revealed and began in Acts 2 on Pentecost when the first men were “called out” and added to the saved!
Third, you haven’t caught on that none of these events that formed the church are “under the Law” and that the church/the “added to”/the saved is not the synagogue of Jews who followed “the Law”. (To put this into words you’ll perhaps understand, the saved in Acts 2 were not a “church in a church” – lol.)

a) Matthew 28:18-20 – ALL authority has been given to Christ.
This leaves NONE for Moses (“the Law&#8221

, NONE for John (or his baptism), and NONE for any other prophet. Christ has ALL authority and from this POINT IN TIME what HE says is authoritative. YOU have been missing this point from the start.
b) “…calling on the name of the Lord” was prophesied by Joel and now a reality on Pentecost. One must now appeal to Christ’s authority to be saved. Those that did, were saved! Acts 2:21, 4:7-10,12, , 22:16.

c) Tell me the difference between what Peter was teaching here in Acts 2 and what
Paul was teaching in Romans 10:12-13… <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

- For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the
same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon
him: 13 for, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord
shall be saved.

Dispy – Tell me the DIFFERENCE when you get a chance –
OKAY ?????

Fourth, we know “the Law” was no longer in effect for those in “the church” for a host of reasons. Let’s look at that.

Acts 4: We see that a persecution arose against “the church”.
1-3 Peter and John were put in “jail” for healing a lame man. It appears those in the synagogue thought that Peter and John “did not play well with others”, huh?
4 – “And when they had set them in the midst, they inquired, By what power, or in what name, have ye done this?”
10 - The man was healed “in the name of Jesus Christ…” - something you ain’t gonna find “under the law” !
IF they were all part of one big happy church or synagogue (I am not at all certain what you really think they were) then WHY all the trouble? IF they were all “under the Law” – what’s the problem Dispy???
18 – (Peter and John) are told not to TEACH “in the name” and threatened in verse 21 - “Under the Law” ??? LOL !!!
32 – “And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and soul: and not one of them said that aught of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.” (This is your definition for a local church.)
Acts 5:11 – This group of believers is called “the church” in this verse! Not the synagogue – not identified as “Jews”, but as “the church” !
18 – The Apostles all land in “jail”. Is this a synagogue divided? I think not.
28 – The Apostles charged to not teach “in this name” – accused of filling Jerusalem with “your teaching” !!! The Apostles MUST have been teaching somethingother than “the Law”, huh?
30-32 – The Apostles taught “Jesus” – death, resurrection, ascension to the right hand of God, repentance and remission of sins – see Acts 2 !!!
33 – The response from their fellow “synagoguers” – SLAY THEM!!
(Do really think “the church” was a part of that synagogue??!!
Do you really think that were all “under the Law” ??? LOL!!!)
40 – The Jews beat the Apostles! and charge to not teach “in the name” !

This was just the start of the persecution of the saved – “the church” for teaching “in the name [by the authority] of Jesus” ! More is recorded in the Acts account.

So Dispy, WHY did the fellow “synagoguers” of “the saved” mistreat them so badly.
YOU claim they were ALL “under the Law”. YOU claim they were all one group there in the synagogue. What’s your explanation? Hmmmm?

The disciples were multiplying (Acts 6:1). Why this distinction in Luke’s record of the early….. CHURCH??!!

Acts 8:4 – The persecuted church scattered and went everywhere preaching the….
a) WORD (literal translation = “glad tidings&#8221

b) “the Law”
c) I don’t have a clue

Correct answer is: A – “the WORD” !

The point is…
It is ludicrous to say that those “saved” in Acts 2:41,47 were a part of the synagogue in Jerusalem as well as attempting to say they were all “under the Law”. No way!
It is equally ridiculous to attempt to say nothing was new and that nothing had changed after Christ died on the cross. It had – big time!

Have great weekend! I am certain you will find some excuse to hide from this post.

Dispy · Mar 24, 2007

PART 1
Apollos1:
Dispy –

I will take a break from my methodical replies to you over-length post #109/110 to answer a few points from your last post to me.

Dispy said - According to the parable of the householder, in Matthew 23:33-46 that the kingdom that was promised the nation of Israel, of which they were the leaders, would be taken from them, and be given to a nation that would bring forth fruit (vs. 43). I find that nation in Revelation 7:4-8, and their fruit mentioned in 9-14.

First, you have a typo there – it is Matthew 21, not 23.

Dispy replies:
My bad.

Apollos1:
Second, this passage and nothing else you stated proves that the kingdom was promised to the nation of Israel. You quite often “beg the question”.
Third, the Jews had religious leaders, some over each synagogue, but not “national” leaders, as you so desperately want to make them out to be. There was no nation, no national leaders, no national army, no national treasury – nothing national.
Fourth, the “nation” (Greek – ethnos) spoken of in verse 43 is a spiritual nation. I will not take the time to prove that to you here. You certainly made no connection between this verse and Revelation 7.

Dispy replies:
It is God's to Abram in Genesis 12:1-3 that says that it is through his physical seed that all the nations of the earth will be bless. Throughout the OT and the Gospels that we see God dealing with the Jewish people as a nation.

It is the children of Israel that wanted a king to rule over them, and God granted them their desire. In 2 Samuel 7-17 God told Nathan to tell David to build him "...a house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom forever" (vs.14). We are not speaking of a "spiritual" kingdom here.

Even when Israel was ruled by Rome, they were allowed to keep their religious identity and religious leaders. They are the ones that sat in "Moses' seat." In Matthew 3:1-3 Jesus even told His disciples, and the multitude to "observe and do" what the scribes and Pharisees ordered. They were in charge of the Jewish kingdom. If they were not in charge of the Jewish kingdom, why would Jesus tell them in Matthew 21:43 that the kingdom would be taken from them?

When God gave the nation of Israel slumbering eyes/blindness (temporarily setting them aside), God no longer dealt with Israel as His favorite people. Even today, Israel, as a nation, is still blinded, and do not recognize (see) Jesus as their prophesied Messiah.

At the 2nd coming of Christ, Israel, as a nation, will recognize Jesus and accept Him. Then the promise to Abram in Genesis 12:1-3 will be fulfilled.

After the rapture of the Chruch, the Body of Christ, then the 144,000 Israelites of Rev. 7 will be revealed. 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. They are the nation that will be in charge of the Jewish Church/nation and will fulfill the promise to Abram.
-------------------------
Apollos1:
Dispy said - Peter, at Pentecost, was not saying about the things that were happening were a new church, he was saying in vss. 15-20 that the Tribulation, that Joel prophesied, had begun. Nothing is said about a "new church." What was happening in Acts 2:38 is what John the Baptist spoke of in Matthew 3:11.

First, Luke is telling us (in Acts 2) that “the church” is coming into existence. This is the first time ever that anyone was “added to” the saved in the history of the world.

Dispy replies:
For some one/thing to be added to, that it had to be "added to" something that was already existed. So, When, prior to Pentecost, was the church started? CHAPTER AND VERSE PLEASE.
-------------------------
Apollos1
Second, the “tribulation” is no where in the context of this passage or in the quotation of Joel that Peter uses in Acts 2. Briefly,
Verse 16 – “THIS is THAT…” - spoken before by the prophet Joel.
What was taking place? The HS came to guide the Apostles into all truth, miraculous manifestations and miraculous revelations.

Dispy replies
Verse 16 THIS IS THAT WHICH WAS SPOKEN BY THE PROPHET JOEL If you read Joel 2:28-32 he is prophesying what Peter is saying. in verses 16-20.
-------------------------
Apollos1:[p/b]
Verse 17 – “I will pour out my spirit…” Sounds like verses 1-4 to me.

Dispy replies:
Come on now, let us quote the entire verse. 17: "And it come to pass IN THE LAST DAYS (TRIBULATION/TIMES OF JACOB'S TROUBLES) I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh:..."

Peter is telling his listeners that the Tribulation was starting. The signs were beginning to appear. That is what Joel was prophsing. In Joel 2:28-32 Joel was speaking of the 70th week of Daniel 9, not Pentecost.
-------------------------------------
Apollos1:
Verses 17-18 tell us of methods of revelation of God’s word.

17: "And it come to pass IN THE LAST DAYS (TRIBULATION/TIMES OF JACOB'S TROUBLES) I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy;

Dispy replies:
17: "And it come to pass IN THE LAST DAYS (TRIBULATION/TIMES OF JACOB'S TROUBLES) I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy;

HEY GUY, these signs were beginning to appear. CAN'T YOU SEE THAT?
------------------------------------------
Apollos 1:
Verse 19-20 tells us of methods of confirmation of revelation. (cf. Heb. 2:3-4).

Dispy replies:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven absove, and signs in the earth below; blood, and fire and vapour of somke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood before that great and notable day of the Lord come.:

First of all, Heb. 2:3-4 is not speaking of the Tribulation as Peter is in Acts 2:19-20, The author is speaking of the earthly ministry of Christ.

Peter in verses 19-20 is still quoting Joes concerning the Tribulation. However, the Tribulation had not yet progressed to that point - THANK GOD. It was his listeners still had to look forward to.
-------------------------
Apollos1
Verse 21 – Whosoever (Jew or Gentile) “shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” THIS is THAT ! Salvation – calling on the name of the Lord! Never before seen – NEW! …end of Joel’s words.

Dispy replies:
Peter is still quoting Joel, and Joel never heard of the name Jesus. Yes, both Joel and Peter are speaking of salvation.

Your THIS is THAT is speaking of what was happening at Pentecost, the beginning of the Tribulation.
-------------------------------
Apollos1:
Third, see my last post for info on John and his baptism. John never told anyone to “call upon the name of the Lord” for salvation. John never baptized anyone “in the name of Jesus Christ…” – Acts 2:38! You assume too much. You’ve got it all wrong… still !
In addition, you are not going to find “calling on the name of the Lord…” or “in the name of Jesus Christ” applicable to anything or anyone “under the Law”. This is just another indicator of how you can know this is separate and apart from Judaism!

Dispy replies
Acts 2:38 "Then said unto them, Repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Mark 1:4 does say that John did baptize for the remission of sins. The Bible doesn't give us any clues as to what words John used. Are you saying that "in the name of Jesus" are the magic words? Isn't what is happening that which John spoke of in Matthew 3:11? I fail to see where this is apart from Judaism. Give me some clues.
-------------------------------
Apollos1:
Dispy - My question to you now is that how can a joint body of believers (Jews and Gentiles) be found at Pentecost, if at Pentecost it was Jews only, under the Law, and later the Gentiles were added, (who were not under the Law), How can that be the same church? Where do you ever learn that the Law was no longer in effect PRIOR TO PAUL???

First, you continue to “beg the question”! You have offered nada, zip-o-la to show this as the Bible definition of anything.

I have offered my explaination; which you reject. However, you have not quoted me anything that said the Chruch, the Body of Christ started at Pentecost. Can I call that "zip-o-la" too?
------------------------------
Apollos1:
Second, Jew and Gentile IN the church is not the prerequisite for having a church. Access to God through Christ FOR Jew and Gentile was the only prerequisite – having the conditions ready to “call out” man. This is revealed and began in Acts 2 on Pentecost when the first men were “called out” and added to the saved!

Dispy replies:
First of all, you cannot show me where the believers of Jesus started a new church.

True Gentiles IN the church is nto a prerequisite for having a church. A "called out" group of devil worshippers can also be classified as a church.

However, the Church, the Body of Christ did consist of Jews and Gentiles on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law, AFTER the setting aside of Israel, as a nation, and AFTER the raising up of Saul/Paul.

The above descripted church did not exist at Pentecost, or was that church ever called "the Body of Christ." You, and other, assume that.
-------------------------
Apollos1:
Third, you haven’t caught on that none of these events that formed the church are “under the Law” and that the church/the “added to”/the saved is not the synagogue of Jews who followed “the Law”. (To put this into words you’ll perhaps understand, the saved in Acts 2 were not a “church in a church” – lol.)

Dispy replies:
Those that worshipped in the synogogue/church, which was still under the Law at Pentecost, consisted of Jews that DID believe that Jesus was the Christ, and Jews that DIDN'T believe that Jesus was the Christ.
---------------------------
Apollos1:
a) Matthew 28:18-20 – ALL authority has been given to Christ.
This leaves NONE for Moses (“the Law&#8221, NONE for John (or his baptism), and NONE for any other prophet. Christ has ALL authority and from this POINT IN TIME what HE says is authoritative. YOU have been missing this point from the start.

Dispy replies:
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Firsst of all, Jesus said in Matthew 23:1-3 that "...the scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses' seat; ALL therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do;..." What did you say about Moses?

Tell me, when did the disciples ever go into "all the world." Seems to me that they agreed with Paul and Barnabas in Galatians 2:9 that they would stay with the circumcision (Jews).

The disciples of Jesus were to preach "the gospel of the kingdom." Paul NEVER preached the gospel of the kingdom. He preached "the gospel of the Grace of God." Is Paul preaching a false gospel? Did the disciples ever preach "the gospel of the Grace of God?"

I could go on with many other things that Paul preached that the disciples never preached, but you would just ignore it, and I would be wasting my time.
---------------------------------
Apollos1:
b) “…calling on the name of the Lord” was prophesied by Joel and now a reality on Pentecost. One must now appeal to Christ’s authority to be saved. Those that did, were saved! Acts 2:21, 4:7-10,12, , 22:16.

Dispy replies
Joel never heard of the name Jesus. The Lord that Joel spoke of was Jehovah God. The Lord God of Israel. At Pentecost those that called on the name of the Lord were calling on Jesus who is also Jehovah God.
------------------------------
Apollos1:
c) Tell me the difference between what Peter was teaching here in Acts 2 and what
Paul was teaching in Romans 10:12-13… <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

- For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the
same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon
him: 13 for, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord
shall be saved.

Dispy – Tell me the DIFFERENCE when you get a chance –
OKAY ?????

I will in part 2.

Dispy · Mar 24, 2007

PART 2
Apollos1:
c) Tell me the difference between what Peter was teaching here in Acts 2 and what
Paul was teaching in Romans 10:12-13… <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

- For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the
same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon
him: 13 for, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord
shall be saved.

Dispy – Tell me the DIFFERENCE[/i] when you get a chance –
OKAY ?????

Dispy replies:
Peter is speaking to those to whom Jesus commanded them to go to in Matthew 10:5-6, and preaching what was required in verse 7. The nation of Israel was still not in a "set aside" condition.

At the time Paul wrote 10 (approx. AD60), Israel, as a nation is in a set aside condition, and the Jews and Gentiles are on equal footing, without distinction and on equal footing.

"Calling on lthe name of the Lord" was a requirement for every dispensation. Where that Lord was Jehovah God, or Jesus. - Elementary young man.
---------------------------------
Apollos1:
Fourth, we know “the Law” was no longer in effect for those in “the church” for a host of reasons. Let’s look at that.

Acts 4: We see that a persecution arose against “the church”.
1-3 Peter and John were put in “jail” for healing a lame man. It appears those in the synagogue thought that Peter and John “did not play well with others”, huh?

Dispy replies:
First of all, You say that they started a new church at Pentecost, yet we see that in Act 3 they were still going into the temple. What were the disciples of Jesus doing in a Jewish Temple/Church/synogogue? I thought you said they started a different church.

If that was their new church, What were unbelievers doing in it in such large numbers?

Don't see anything in chapter 3 that says that the Law was no longer in effect. Don't see anything in chapter 4 either that says that the Law was not longer in effect. PLEASE point out those verses for me.
---------------------------------
Apollos1:
4 – “And when they had set them in the midst, they inquired, By what power, or in what name, have ye done this?”

Dipy replies:
First of all, you have a typo error. You are quoting from 4:7. It appears you too are human.

They asked a fair question.
----------------------------------------
Apollos1:
10 - The man was healed “in the name of Jesus Christ…” - something you ain’t gonna find “under the law” !
IF they were all part of one big happy church or synagogue (I am not at all certain what you really think they were) then WHY all the trouble? IF they were all “under the Law” – what’s the problem Dispy???

Dispy replies:
Peter is explaining it was Jesus that gave him the authority to heal the lame man. Didn't Jesus give Peter "the keys to the kingdom." Isn't the Law going to be in effect in the kingdom. If the 12 disciples are going to be sitting on 12 thrones in His kingdom, doesn't there have to be a Law to judge by? Therefore, the disciples at Pentecost were still looking forward to the kingdom.

I don't have a problem, it is quite apparent that you do.
-----------------------------
Apollos1:
18 – (Peter and John) are told not to TEACH “in the name” and threatened in verse 21 - “Under the Law” ??? LOL !!!

Dispy replies
They told Peter that because they did not believe that Jesus was the Christ, their long promised Messiah. They hated Jesus. That is why the believing members of the Jewish Church/temple/synogogue were persecuted. What are you laughing about?
------------------------------
Apollos1:
32 – “And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and soul: and not one of them said that aught of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.” (This is your definition for a local church.)

Dispy replies:
I HAVE NEVER SAID ANY SUCH THING!!! However, that was what those at Pentecost that believed did. Is that the "new church" that the disciples of Jesus started, or what church was it?
--------------------------------------
Apollos1:
Acts 5:11 – This group of believers is called “the church” in this verse! Not the synagogue – not identified as “Jews”, but as “the church” !

Dispy replies:
That church consisted of believing Jews and proselytes. Why would they have to be identified as Jews?
--------------------------
Apollos1:
18 – The Apostles all land in “jail”. Is this a synagogue divided? I think not.

Dispy replies:
Yes it is. Those in the synagogue that believed in Jesus were presecuted and scattered.

Apollos1:
28 – The Apostles charged to not teach “in this name” – accused of filling Jerusalem with “your teaching” !!! The Apostles MUST have been teaching somethingother than “the Law”, huh?

Dispy replies:
They were teaching that Jesus was the Christ, their long promised Messiah. At this point in time there is nothing that says that the Law was no longer in effect. Have you got a chapter and verse that says it is? Before Paul?
-----------------------------------
Apollos1:
30-32 – The Apostles taught “Jesus” – death, resurrection, ascension to the right hand of God, repentance and remission of sins – see Acts 2 !!!

Dispy replies:
30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Peter is explaining the purpose of the coming of Jesus, who they slew and hanged on a tree. Also they are witnesses of that fact, and the things that happened at Pentecost.

In Acts 3:14-20 Peter accused them of the murder of Jesus, and that it was something to be repented of. Also, he explained to them what would happen if they did.
----------------------------------------
Apollos1:
33 – The response from their fellow “synagoguers” – SLAY THEM!!
(Do really think “the church” was a part of that synagogue??!!
Do you really think that were all “under the Law” ??? LOL!!!)

replies:
33 When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them.

Those are the leaders of the synogogue that did not believe that Jesus was the long promised Messiah, and wanted to get rid of His followers.

Yup, the Law was still in effect.
----------------------------------------------
Apollos1:
40 - The Jews beat the Apostles! and charge to not teach “teach in the name

This was just the start of the persecution of the saved – “"the church” for teaching “in the name [by the authority] of Jesus” ! More is recorded in the Acts account.

So Dispy, WHY did the fellow “synagoguers” of “the saved” mistreat them so badly.
YOU claim they were ALL “under the Law”. YOU claim they were all one group there in the synagogue. What’s your explanation? Hmmmm?

Dispy replies:
Yes, those leaders in the synogogue, and members that did not believe in Jesus; had no love for those who did. They hated them with a passion, and the leaders did their best to get rid of them. That is why the followers of Jesus were presecuted and scattered. Saul was their main leader.
----------------------------------
Apollos1:
The disciples were multiplying (Acts 6:1). Why this distinction in Luke’s record of the early….. CHURCH??!!

Dispy replies:
When many of the Jewish community saw the many signs and wonders that the disciples were displaying, they then knew that they were from God (The Jews required a sign). Therefore, the disciples were very successful in carring out their commission, at that point.
-----------------------------
Apollos1:
Acts 8:4 – The persecuted church scattered and went everywhere preaching the….
a) WORD (literal translation = “glad tidings&#8221
b) “the Law”
c) I don’t have a clue

Correct answer is: A – “the WORD” !

The point is…
It is ludicrous to say that those “saved” in Acts 2:41,47 were a part of the synagogue in Jerusalem as well as attempting to say they were all “under the Law”. No way!
It is equally ridiculous to attempt to say nothing was new and that nothing had changed after Christ died on the cross. It had – big time!

Dispy replies:
A is the correct answer, however, they observed the Law. They certainly didn't preach "the gospel of the Grace of God" that Paul was commissioned to preach.
----------------------------
Apollos1
Have great weekend! I am certain you will find some excuse to hide from this post.

Dispy replies:
I certainly will have a great weekend. I have a great church where I attend the morning Sunday School, and Church service. Will watch NASCAR in the afternoon, and probably get in a nap at the same time.

Apollos1 · Mar 28, 2007

Dispy

How did you type all of that nothing and still have time for a nap last weekend? It must be that you substantiate so little and make the rest up as you go along.

Last post I showed where.

PETER said THIS IS THAT which was spoken by the prophet Joel Acts 2:16.
Peter followed with whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved Acts 2:21. (cf. Joel 2:32).

PAUL said For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek Romans 10:12.
Paul follows with for Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Romans 10:13.

Dispy replied -
(1) Peter is speaking to those to whom Jesus commanded them to go to in Matthew 10:5-6, and preaching what was required in verse 7. The nation of Israel was still not in a "set aside" condition.

(2)At the time Paul wrote 10 (approx. AD60), Israel, as a nation is in a set aside condition, and the Jews and Gentiles are on equal footing, without distinction and on equal footing.

(3)"Calling on lthe name of the Lord" was a requirement for every dispensation. Where that Lord was Jehovah God, or Jesus. - Elementary young man.

First, you have napped too long! Peter is addressing those that Jesus told to do something else in Matthew 28:18-20, AFTER Matthew 10, AFTER the cross, and AFTER He had been given ALL authority. You are only 18 chapters BEHIND LOL ! (But you dont recognize that passage do you!)
In Matthew 28 Jesus told the disciples to preach the GOSPEL to the entire WORLD!!! This would be funnier if it were not so serious! You need an update and less napping!

Second, you have failed to show what this setting aside theory is and prove it from the Bible, while failing also to show HOW Israel as a nation existed. We have had this national talk before and you have failed well miserably! Want to try again?

Third, you say this was a requirement for every dispensation ???
Those calling upon the name of the Lord shall be saved ??? This was??????
You can show this from the Bible ??? LOL!!!

Because Peter and Paul are speaking of Jesus Christ and JOEL was prophesying in reference to Jesus Christ I DONT THINK SO !!! I am certain that you will rush to prove how every dispensation called upon the authority of Jesus Christ for salvation huh? Or, you will readily admit you took this out of context right?

Peter tells us that THIS IS THAT ! Not another time and not another place it was THERE and it was NOW for them. What Joel prophesied hundreds of years prior was taking place AT THAT TIME not in some other dispensation. (You dont believe that!) Funny how truth changes the elementary things for those in error, huh?

Later, Paul comes along saying the same thing and quoting Joel also. AFTER the cross there were no differences in calling upon the name of the Lord for salvation. Jesus had ALL authority and He alone was the source of salvation for ALL.
----------------------------
Last time I stated
Matthew 28:18-20 ALL authority has been given to Christ.
This leaves NONE for Moses (the Law), NONE for John (or his baptism), and NONE for any other prophet. Christ has ALL authority and from this POINT IN TIME what HE says is authoritative. YOU have been missing this point from the start.

Dispy replied - Firsst of all, Jesus said in Matthew 23:1-3 that "...the scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses' seat; ALL therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do;..." What did you say about Moses?

LOL ! What I said about Moses is still accurate. You are BEHIND again! Five chapters BEHIND on this point. Jesus has ALL authority now why can you not recognize that? I guess I need to ask the most basic and fundamental question

1.) Read Matthew 28:18-20.
2.) Question Does Jesus Christ have ALL authority now ?
a. Yes
b. No
3.) Give answer here - - - _____.
(Lets hope you answer b. and we can go on from there.)

Tell me, when did the disciples ever go into "all the world." Seems to me that they agreed with Paul and Barnabas in Galatians 2:9 that they would stay with the circumcision (Jews).

You presume they (you are meaning the Apostles ? not the disciples) did not go into all the world just because YOU dont know what they did. Last time you presumed you knew what the Apostles were thinking, you might as well claim to know where they were all the time also! (A person can accomplish things by direct action or supervision, by agency, and a third way to act is through a treasury. More on this another time)

Certainly the disciples taught by the Apostles went into all of the world see Acts 8:1and4. (cf. Romans 1:8, Col. 1:6, 1Ths. 1:8). (Btw these are the disciples, who were called the church, took the gospel to the Gentiles in Acts 11:19 BEFORE Paul remember?)

But allow me to ask you a couple of questions that you are not going to answer
In Acts 8:14-25 Peter and John go to Samaria preached the gospel in many villages.
Does this count toward the Great Commission star you want to hand out?

In Acts 9:32 it says Peter went throughout all parts.
Tell me, WHERE did Peter go?
It also says Peter also went to Lydda, Joppa, and then to Caesarea where Peter was the FIRST to preach the gospel to the Gentiles. Does any of this count toward that star ???

In Galatians 1:18-19 Paul says he went to Jerusalem three years after his conversion. None of the Apostles were there except James! Where were the Apostles at that time??? Do you know???

In Galatians 2:11 we find Peter at Antioch. On this trip, where did Peter go? Where was Peter BEFORE he went to Antioch? Where did he go AFTER Antioch?

You see Dispy, you want to claim for the sake of your false theology that the Apostles (and perhaps the disciples) never went anywhere, but stayed only in Jerusalem. Why so? Because it is easier for you to claim that Paul ONLY converted the entire world with that second gospel the gospel no one knows when or where he got it.
BUT THIS JUST AINT SO !!! You dont have a clue WHERE and WHEN the Apostles went out preaching the gospel, just as you have no clue WHERE or WHEN Paul got that alleged gospel! You continue to presume too much! Lol!

The disciples of Jesus were to preach "the gospel of the kingdom." Paul NEVER preached the gospel of the kingdom. He preached "the gospel of the Grace of God."

Really? Lets take a look at Acts 20:24-25

24 - But I hold not my life of any account as dear unto myself, so that I may accomplish my course, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
25 - And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I went about preaching the kingdom, shall see my face no more.

Wow Dispy, Paul, through the pen of Luke, is saying you are confused! Methinks you are a dollup too dizzy from all of that NASCAR you have been watching!

Acts 28:30-31

31 And [Paul] abode two whole years in his own hired dwelling,
and received all that went in unto him,
31 preaching the kingdom of God,
and teaching the things concerning the Lord Jesus Christ with
all boldness, none forbidding him.

This is about 63 AD !!! Paul is still preaching the
kingdom.

Is Paul preaching a false gospel? Did the disciples ever preach "the gospel of the Grace of God?"

Paul preached the same gospel everyone else had, not the one you think he had there was only ONE. They all taught about the kingdom as well as the grace of God - which are integral parts of that ONE gospel.

I could go on with many other things that Paul preached that the disciples never preached, but you would just ignore it, and I would be wasting my time.

You do not need the embarrassment. You would presume many more things based on a false theology. I will write more as I have time

[b]WHICH GOSPEL? KINGDO OR GRACE?

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