[b]god Doesn't Love Everyone- Only The Righteous, Not Sinners[/b]

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createdtoworship

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There is alot of calvinists and arminianists in this group... so here goes...
In this forum I want to ask you a very simple question.


A friends 13 year old son once told me, "I know God loves me and want's me saved but when I repent I somehow feel that it is not enough, I don't know how to repent because when I repent, I mess up again. I don't think I am doing a good enough Job repenting."

To the CALVINIST?
What type of repentance is sufficient for salvation?

To the ARMINIANIST?
What about unknown sins, how can we repent sufficiently of our unknown sins, unto salvation.
 

cygnusx1

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gradyll said:
There is alot of calvinists and arminianists in this group... so here goes...
In this forum I want to ask you a very simple question.


A friends 13 year old son once told me, "I know God loves me and want's me saved but when I repent I somehow feel that it is not enough, I don't know how to repent because when I repent, I mess up again. I don't think I am doing a good enough Job repenting."

To the CALVINIST?
What type of repentance is sufficient for salvation?

To the ARMINIANIST?
What about unknown sins, how can we repent sufficiently of our unknown sins, unto salvation.

You started by positing God doesn't love everyone only the Righteous not sinners .............. but seeing as the Righteous are sinners and prior to Conversion may have been the very worst of sinners , how does this inspire a belief that God does Love only some men and not all ??

also Repentance is a gift , if it is the real thing it will result in a New Life (good works by Faith), with works befitting it..
Greetings Cygnus :wave:
 
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createdtoworship

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as far as I have bben told a calvinist says that ultimate love is manifest in going to heaven, so by that definition a calvinist believes that only the elect are loved completely. They even say the original greek states so. Any remarks?
 
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cygnusx1

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gradyll said:
as far as I have bben told a calvinist says that ultimate love is manifest in going to heaven, so by that definition a calvinist believes that only the elect are loved completely. They even say the original greek states so. Any remarks?

Calvinists vary as do all Christians on .... Doctrine........ they have a basic fundemntal agreement over God's Majesty , His Sovereignty , and man's corruption , Depravity , destitution and sheer hoplessness , until Grace makes the difference.
So Calvinists differ on who exactly God Loves .... some say He only Loves The Elect , Some say He Loves all ..... Elect and Non-Elect.

This is often historically why some Calvinists are called High Calvinists and others are called Moderate Calvinists.

I must confess that I used to be a High Calvinist , believing God only Loved the Elect , but a number of Years ago I had a change of heart and mind .... this was because I wasn't convinced by some interptretations of Scripture that indicated compassion , longing , yes LOVE in God for men in general .
I spent a number of years haunted by certain texts.
Finally seeing God deal many times with the Jews CONDITIONALY made me realise that as far as the non-elect go , God calls them and upon condition of there Repentance and Faith in Christ , they too can be saved.......The Gospel Call to Repent and turn in faith to God is not only a general Call , but a most sincere CALL!

Greetings Cygnus :wave:
 
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cygnusx1

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gradyll said:
I must agree, FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD, means kosmos.

That doesn' mean he loves the oceans, and trees, nor the worlds' systems, but the world of men, He loves the entire kosmos of MANKIND!

absolutely , and I believe there are degrees of Love , indicated by phrases such as Jacob I loved but Esau I hated .
Contextually this is speaking of preference ........ as it is written Blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute (his) sin.

Greetings Cygnus :wave:
 
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createdtoworship

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When we know we are saved for sure, and that God does desire for all men to be in fact saved. We have a heart for the lost. Many dogmas such as Hyper calvinism, maybe even as far a calvinism in general, don't support the outreaches to the so called NON ELECT. Only in the last 20 years has there been a revolution amongst this type of church. Please be careful when claiming allegance to any dogma such as arminianism or calvanism, we can even say we are of peter or of paul, but we need to be OF CHRIST!!!

We LOVE the LOST because HE first loved us that were LOST!!!

I was nonelect, until someone shared the love of Christ, I soon realized that I was elect from the foundation of the World!!!
 
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cygnusx1

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gradyll said:
When we know we are saved for sure, and that God does desire for all men to be in fact saved. We have a heart for the lost. Many dogmas such as Hyper calvinism, maybe even as far a calvinism in general, don't support the outreaches to the so called NON ELECT. Only in the last 20 years has there been a revolution amongst this type of church. Please be careful when claiming allegance to any dogma such as arminianism or calvanism, we can even say we are of peter or of paul, but we need to be OF CHRIST!!!

We LOVE the LOST because HE first loved us that were LOST!!!

I was nonelect, until someone shared the love of Christ, I soon realized that I was elect from the foundation of the World!!!

as far as you knew you were non-elect but God always knew you .............

what puzzles me is many folk who come here NEVER go into General Apologetics and try and win the lost ........ so much for their arguements!
 
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createdtoworship

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So True!

We are eager to give gifts at christmas but we don't want to offer people the free gift of eternal life! Which is just as free!

Usually it's because we don't realize how awesome the gift really is!







"recieve ye the spirit by the work of the law or by the hearing of faith?"
 
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Vessel Of Mercy

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Calvinism and Arminianism both teach that full repentance (turning away from) of sin is required for salvation. When we repent it must be in the heart. It must be full. That does not mean that we will never sin again, because we are still in this rotten flesh and eagerly await the coming of Christ and the Kingdom, in which we will be sinless, but we do not keep committing the same exact sin over and over again joyfully without caring. In repentance, we actively seek to fight our sin. We use Scripture, as we seek to walk according to the Spirit, because Scripture is the only true weapon against our flesh.

That said, I quote from Octavius Winslow:

" Be careful of not making a Saviour of faith. There is a danger—and it cannot be too vigilantly guarded against—of substituting the work of the Spirit for the work of Christ; this mistake it is that leads so many of God's saints to look within, instead of without, themselves for the evidences of their calling and acceptance; and thus, too, so many are kept all their spiritual course walking in a state of bondage and fear, the great question never fully and fairly settled, or, in other words, never quite sure of their sonship. The work of Christ is a great and finished work; it is so glorious that it can admit of no comparison, so complete that it can allow of no addition, and so essential that it can give place to no substitution. Precious as is the work of the Holy Ghost in the heart, and essential as it is to the salvation of the soul, yet he who places it where the work of Jesus ought only to be, deranges the order of the covenant, closes up the legitimate source of evidence, and will assuredly bring distress and uncertainty into his soul. " Righteousness, peace, and joy," are the fruit of a full belief in the Lord Jesus Christ; and he who looks for them away from the cross, will meet with disappointment: but they are found in Jesus. He who looks away from himself, from his vileness, guiltiness, emptiness, and poverty, fully and believingly unto Jesus, shall know what the forgiveness of sin is, and shall experience the love of God shed abroad in his heart.

If, then, your faith is feeble and tried, be not cast down; faith does not save you. Though it be an instrument of salvation, and as such, is of vast importance, it is but the instrument; the finished work of Immanuel is the ground of your salvation, yea, it is your salvation itself. Then make not a saviour of your faith; despise it not if it is feeble, exult not in it if it is strong, trample not on it if it is small, deify it not if it is great; such are the extremes to which every believer is exposed. If your faith is feeble and sharply tried, it is no evidence that you are not a believer; but the evidence of your acceptance in the Beloved, is to arise from Jesus alone; then I let your constant motto be, " looking unto Jesus "; looking I to him just as you are; looking unto him when faith is feeble; looking unto him when faith is tried; looking unto him when faith is declining, yea, looking unto him when you fear you have e no faith. Look up, tried and tempted soul! Jesus is the Author, the Sustainer, and he will become the Finisher of thy faith. All thou wantest is in him. One glimpse, dim though it be, of his cross,—one touch, trembling though it be, of his garment,—will lift thee from thy lowest depths, lighten thy heaviest burthen, gild thy darkest prospect, and when thou arrivest at Jordan's brink, will bear thee safely through its swellings, and land thee on the sunny and verdant shores of Canaan. Let this be your prayer, urged unceasingly at the throne of grace until it is answered—" Lord, increase my faith "; and then, with holy Paul, you too shall be enabled with humble assurance to exclaim, " I know in whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day!'" (Octavius Winslow. Personal Declension and Revival of Religion in the Soul. Page 88, 89: Banner of Truth, 1993.)

May God give to those who are His full comfort in the cross of Christ, that we were crucified with Him and resurrected to new life with Him. There is no comfort but in the cross of Christ for all those who repent and trust Jesus completely.

Ben
 
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createdtoworship

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Vessel Of Mercy said:
When we repent it must be in the heart. It must be full. That does not mean that we will never sin again, because we are still in this rotten flesh and eagerly await the coming of Christ and the Kingdom, in which we will be sinless, but we do not keep committing the same exact sin over and over again joyfully without caring. In repentance, we actively seek to fight our sin. Ben

Now, we get down to the root of the division. Good move! This is what I was hoping someone would bring up.

When we accept repentance as a requirement for salvation, we must wonder. Is repentance salvic? Is it absolutely necessary for salvation? Is repentance post salvation? Is it a work of God, or of me? If me, why the exhortations?

Salvic repentance is the last remaining roman doctrine within orthodox christianity!

For those who believe that a repentance from any or all moral sins is a requirement for salvation....

How do I quantify the amount of repentance that one may need to be assure of salvation? Or, maybe you believe we cannot be sure of salvation...

Also How does one repent for unknown sins? Is there grace for those? What about those who are naive? Is there grace for those?

If salvation is a gift from God, the only logical choice. Then what about when we fall short. What about lusts of the mind? What about pride? Arrogance? What about lack of love for the homeless? What about lack of patience in traffic? What about covetousness? If we can commit even one of these sins a day, does that mean before the next day we must have brought our sacrifice of repentance to God? What if I forget a day? Am I saved, What if I forget two days, what if I sin multiple sins, or horrific sins, or illegal sins, maybe more than once. Do I repent? When? Where and how?

You perhaps can now see the weakness in this type of teaching?

Our next question, does the Bible say repent? There are many examples with many different answers, lets try a few, got any?


In His grip of grace,
g grady little

"I don not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." Gal. 2:21
 
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createdtoworship

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Galatians 3:18


"For if the inheritance be of the law, it is not more of promise: but God gave it to abraham by promise....vs 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe."

If repentance of moral sin is obedience to the law of Christ, is this of promise? Or is it of wage?
 
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