Avoiding the Mark of the beast

[Gregory Thompson]

Did you think it would be any other way my brother????

The real question to me is why do people have to be that way on a "Christian" forum???

Am I missing something here???

Yeah, probably not.

But it does help to be hopeful.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

How is it a "personal attach" to ask you if your imagination defines
the "mark"? Why are you so easily offended? It is not a "strawman"
to repeat your own words back to you. Do you know the definition
of a strawman argument? And it is not "flaming" to repeat your
own words back to you.

.

I'm not offended, I don't know you - so that would make it difficult for you to offend me.

God bless.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I said:
Really? You are going to "imagine" what the "mark" represents?
How can you offer an "informed opinion" based on your imagination?

Are you aware there were other "Beasts" and other "images"
and other "marks"... don't you think that information would
be helpful for your imagination?


When you "imagine" does NOT relate to Scripture,
it relates to your "imagination"... that is the definition,
whether you choose to admit it or not.

Secondly, I notice you IGNORED what I said about
the PREVIOUS Beasts and the PREVIOUS "images"
and the PREVIOUS "marks". Do you think that
BIBLICAL information would be relevant?

A strawman is when I CHANGE your argument...
not when I REPEAT your own words.

I did not realize you are so sensitive, please forgive me
if I "offended" you by providing information about the
PREVIOUS Beasts and PREVIOUS images and PREVIOUS
marks... I thought you would find them relevant.
Apparently you do not.

.

You appear to be taking this personally. So since nothing Godly can come from this, I'll bid you good day.

 

[5thKingdom]

Not before seeing Satan first. But we are not looking for Satan. We are looking for the glorious appearing of God and the Lamb. Titus 2:13
"Looking for that blessed hope, and appearing of that glory of that mighty God, and of our Savior Jesus Christ."

But the "mark" is not literal... just as the "image" is not a statue.
More than that... the Great Tribulation is EXCLUSIVE to the people
known as the "ten virgins" or "ten kings" or "ten horns" so if you
are not one of those people... how would you know about the
"mark" or the "image"?

.

 

[5thKingdom]

You appear to be taking this personally. So since nothing Godly can come from this, I'll bid you good day.

I must take it personally when someone claims I am "flaming"
by repeating their words back to them. I do not want to fight
about this either. So I will wish you a good night also.

.

 

[5thKingdom]

Where does it say the Holy Spirit worked in synagogues? This is circular reasoning. The Holy Spirit was taken away, because the Holy Spirit was there, because the Holy Spirit was taken away.

I already provided the SCRIPTURE.
Here it is again. If the Holy Spirit was TAKEN from the Jews
that means they HAD IT at one point... which of course they did
since they were the "people of God". Nevertheless... here it is again


Mat 21:43
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be TAKEN from you,
and GIVEN to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Mat 21:45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables,
they perceived that he spake of them.


.

 

[5thKingdom]

Not before seeing Satan first. But we are not looking for Satan. We are looking for the glorious appearing of God and the Lamb. Titus 2:13
"Looking for that blessed hope, and appearing of that glory of that mighty God, and of our Savior Jesus Christ."

But 2 Thess says the Man of Sin "sitting" in the Temple must be "revealed" first.
Did you forget about that?

.

 

[5thKingdom]

Where does it say the Holy Spirit worked in synagogues? This is circular reasoning. The Holy Spirit was taken away, because the Holy Spirit was there, because the Holy Spirit was taken away.

It is not circular reasoning to say the Holy Spirit was there
and it was taken away. Pretty simple stuff.

.

 

[Timtofly]

But the "mark" is not literal... just as the "image" is not a statue.
More than that... the Great Tribulation is EXCLUSIVE to the people
known as the "ten virgins" or "ten kings" or "ten horns" so if you
are not one of those people... how would you know about the
"mark" or the "image"?

The Bible is not the hand book of some elitist girls club. It does not matter who they represent. So if you take this as a literal attack, forget it. One cannot just pick and choose what is symbolic and what is not, and then claim only they know the truth.

The Bible was given to the whole world, and the Holy Spirit is restraining in the lives of ever single person alive. Restrictions placed on who is who is the start of a cult.

 

[Timtofly]

I already provided the SCRIPTURE.
Here it is again. If the Holy Spirit was TAKEN from the Jews
that means they HAD IT at one point... which of course they did
since they were the "people of God". Nevertheless... here it is again


Mat 21:43
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be TAKEN from you,
and GIVEN to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Mat 21:45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables,
they perceived that he spake of them.

But this has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit. A kingdom is about authority and control. The Holy Spirit is about having power over the sinful fleshly nature. Israel was hardly spiritual by the time Jesus was born. Having a religion does not make a nation spiritual nor empowered by the Holy Spirit. This is a claim that a kingdom had something because the kingdom was taken away. Nope, the kingdom was given to others, but the former kingdom did not have the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit works in individuals, not in a group setting. But you spiritualize everything, so not sure what you would call a spiritual non spiritual condition?

 

[Timtofly]

But 2 Thess says the Man of Sin "sitting" in the Temple must be "revealed" first.
Did you forget about that?

Well it is Satan so no more mystery. There is no temple, so until it gets built, no sitting.

The fact that the church has fallen away is proof the the Adversary won, and convinced the church to look for a ghost called the antichrist. 2 Thessalonians 2:3
"For the Day will not come until after the Apostasy has come and the man who separates himself from Torah has been revealed, the one destined for doom."

This is Satan. Now 2 Thessalonians 2:8

"Then the one who embodies separation from Torah will be revealed, the one whom the Lord Yeshua will slay with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the glory of his coming."

This is the false prophet. The first being separated the world from the whole Torah, not just the Law. The false prophet embodies this separation. Now 2 Thessalonians 2:9-11

9 When this man who avoids Torah comes, the Adversary will give him the power to work all kinds of false miracles, signs and wonders.
10 He will enable him to deceive, in all kinds of wicked ways, those who are headed for destruction because they would not receive the love of the truth that could have saved them.
11 This is why God is causing them to go astray, so that they will believe the Lie.

When the false prophet comes, Satan the first "man", the Adversary enables this false prophet, and with false miracles. The church will already be apostate, and believe all the lies these two beings tell.

That Day of the Lord is the last 1000 years, but amils reject that point. So yes, before the last millennium, all of 2 Thessalonians 2 about Satan and the false prophet will happen.

 

[5thKingdom]

Well it is Satan so no more mystery.

I said
But 2 Thess says the Man of Sin "sitting" in the Temple must be "revealed" first.
Did you forget about that?

You said:
Well it is Satan so no more mystery.

What makes you think that it is Satan (a spirit) sitting in the Temple?

.

 

[iamlamad]

You equate the removal of the Holy Spirit with the removal of the church.
That is not necessarily so. When the Great Commission is finished (also shown
as the testimony of the Two Witnesses being finished) then the Holy Spirit can
be withdrawn and Satan can be loosened and his chief emissary on earth,
the Anitchirst, can rise to deceive the Last Saints.

Just as there is still Jewish churches (Temples) around AFTER they had the
Holy Spirit TAKEN from them... so also there can be Christian churches
around AFTER the Holy Spirit is TAKEN from them... in fact, we could
argue there are many apostate churches today with no Holy Spirit.


Mat 21:43
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be TAKEN from you,
and GIVEN to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.


Mat 21:45
And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables,
they perceived that he spake of them.


In fact we can make the argument that Satan cannot be "loosened"
from the Pit and his Antichrist cannot rise until AFTER the Holy Spirit
has been taken away. How could Satan and the Antichrist RULE
when the Great Commission is still ongoing... clearly Jesus said
that HE RULES during the Great Commission;


Mat 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying,
All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name
of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them
to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:
and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


BTW... the correct translation is the "end of the age" (not world)
which indicates the end of the age of the Great Commission.


And we see the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]
could not begin (Satan and the Antichrist could not RULE) until AFTER
all the elect have been "sealed" (saved).


Rev 7:2
And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal
of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels,
to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying,
Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees,
till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.


Jesus talked about a "NIGHT" in which no man can "work".
That was talking about the RULE of Satan and his Antichrist
RULING during the Great Tribulation and/or Revelation Beast.
That means the Holy Spirit (but not the church) must be
removed BEFORE Satan and the Antichrist are able to
have the POWER and SEAT [rule] and AUTHORITY
during the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast.


Rev 13:2
And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet
were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion:
and the dragon [Satan] gave him [the Antichrist] his power,
and his seat, and great authority.


Just as there are now Jewish churches (Temples) after the Holy Spirit
was TAKEN from them... so also there will be Christian churches on
earth after the Holy Spirit is TAKEN out of the way... in fact, the
focus of the attack of Satan and the Antichrist is on the Last Saints
that are IN THE CHURCHES


Rev 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war
with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God,
and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


I could go on with more examples... but I think you can get the idea
from what I have already revealed.


Jim
.

You equate the removal of the Holy Spirit with the removal of the church. Let's add understanding to knowledge. Who has authority on the earth today: God or the church? Of course it is THE CHURCH: It is written that all authority was given to Jesus but then Jesus said "GO" to the church, showing that He delegated His authority to the church.

In other words, what the Holy Spirit does today on earth, He does through believers. He uses the authority of the believer to accomplish His will. At the rapture, all Believers will be gone. He, the Holy Spirit, will still be here, but He will have no believers to work through to accomplish the Father's will. It will be the restrainer "taken out of the way."

When the Great Commission is finished (also shown
as the testimony of the Two Witnesses being finished) What if the great commission is finished at the pretrib rapture? The door will be shut. The Two Witnesses will have a different "commission."

as the testimony of the Two Witnesses being finished) then the Holy Spirit can be withdrawn and Satan can be loosened and his chief emissary on earth, the Anitchirst, can rise to deceive the Last Saints.

This statement shows a lack of understanding of John's chronology. The two witnesses will BEGIN their testimony just 3 1/2 days before the midpoint abomination. They will testify for 1260 days and be killed just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial that ends the week. In other words, they will be here DURING the Beast's 42 months - at least most of it. Students of Revelation really must learn John's chronology.

(John wrote 11:4 through 11:13 as a parenthesis, outside of his chronology. The 1260 days of testifying is for the LAST half of the week.)

In fact we can make the argument that Satan cannot be "loosened"
from the Pit and his Antichrist cannot rise until AFTER the Holy Spirit
has been taken away. How could Satan and the Antichrist RULE
when the Great Commission is still ongoing... clearly Jesus said
that HE RULES during the Great Commission;
Revelation does not allow such an argument. First, Satan is not "bound" (so he could be "loosened) until the 1000 year reign. OF COURSE the Holy Spirit will be here during the entire 70th week. There is no scripture anywhere that shows He goes back to heaven after Jesus sent Him down. There should be no question that He will be on earth during the millennial reign.

HOW could Satan and Antichrist rule? Simple, GOD has delegated 42 months of authority to the Beast. The Holy Spirit will VERY MUCH be here on earth to assist those who will be beheaded. Without His help, most would take the mark.

All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore
This shows us that Jesus delegated His authority to the church. He gave the saints authority.

BTW... the correct translation is the "end of the age" (not world)
which indicates the end of the age of the Great Commission. This would have been correct before you added "which indicates..."

Why not just believe it as written? He - God - in the person of the Holy Spirit - is going to be here until the 7th vial ends the 70th week that ends the Jewish age. But does this really tell us He will then go back to heaven? No, I think not. He will be here for the millennial reign.

we see the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]
Sorry, but the kingdom of heaven is for all time, not just a specific time. The Kingdom of heaven will be there before the GT, during the GT, and after the GT.

(Satan and the Antichrist could not RULE) until AFTER
all the elect have been "sealed" (saved).
No, this is pure imagination - and cannot be backed up with scripture. The sealing is NOT "saved." It is exactly what it says, the Father's name on their forehead. Since they follow Jesus one could say they are "saved." They are not part of the church. It may be the rapture that convinces them that Jesus IS their Messiah. They are sealed for ONE PURPOSE: their protection during the trumpet judgments - specifically the stinging locusts. (Note: there is no indication that they are "born again.") This is NOT the Holy Spirit seal in their spirit person as all believers have now.

Just so you will know, they are sealed before the 7th seal that will start the week, but the revealed man of sin - turned Beast - will not rule until chapter 13, AFTER the abomination in chapter 11. It seems they, the 144,000 will be caught up to heaven - perhaps before the Beast arises. They are seen in heaven in chapter 14, which is soon after the abomination.

That means the Holy Spirit (but not the church) must be removed BEFORE Satan and the Antichrist are able to have the POWER and SEAT [rule] and AUTHORITY during the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast.
This has already been shown to be false.

It seems I disagree with almost every point you make.

 

[iamlamad]

I said
But 2 Thess says the Man of Sin "sitting" in the Temple must be "revealed" first.
Did you forget about that?

You said:
Well it is Satan so no more mystery.

What makes you think that it is Satan (a spirit) sitting in the Temple?

.

Good question!

 

[Major1]

But the "mark" is not literal... just as the "image" is not a statue.
More than that... the Great Tribulation is EXCLUSIVE to the people
known as the "ten virgins" or "ten kings" or "ten horns" so if you
are not one of those people... how would you know about the
"mark" or the "image"?

.

But my dear brother...........why would you think that the mark and statue is NOT literal????

By what authority, do you make the statement?

What credentials do you possess that make your comment acceptable?

Rev. 13:14.....
"And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live."

IF....IF what you are proposing that the IMAGE of the beast is not LITERAL, then we can remove these Scriptures from the Bible since they will not be LITERAL either.

2 Thessalonians 2:4
who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

Daniel 11:31
Forces from him will arise, desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice. And they will set up the abomination of desolation.

Matthew 24:15
“Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

Source: 4 Bible verses about Image Of The Beast

 

[Major1]

Good question!

It will be the A/C sitting in the temple as HE is the abomination of desolation. Notice the literal Scriptures carefully.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4.......
"Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

 

[Major1]

You equate the removal of the Holy Spirit with the removal of the church. Let's add understanding to knowledge. Who has authority on the earth today: God or the church? Of course it is THE CHURCH: It is written that all authority was given to Jesus but then Jesus said "GO" to the church, showing that He delegated His authority to the church.

In other words, what the Holy Spirit does today on earth, He does through believers. He uses the authority of the believer to accomplish His will. At the rapture, all Believers will be gone. He, the Holy Spirit, will still be here, but He will have no believers to work through to accomplish the Father's will. It will be the restrainer "taken out of the way."

When the Great Commission is finished (also shown
as the testimony of the Two Witnesses being finished) What if the great commission is finished at the pretrib rapture? The door will be shut. The Two Witnesses will have a different "commission."

as the testimony of the Two Witnesses being finished) then the Holy Spirit can be withdrawn and Satan can be loosened and his chief emissary on earth, the Anitchirst, can rise to deceive the Last Saints.

This statement shows a lack of understanding of John's chronology. The two witnesses will BEGIN their testimony just 3 1/2 days before the midpoint abomination. They will testify for 1260 days and be killed just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial that ends the week. In other words, they will be here DURING the Beast's 42 months - at least most of it. Students of Revelation really must learn John's chronology.

(John wrote 11:4 through 11:13 as a parenthesis, outside of his chronology. The 1260 days of testifying is for the LAST half of the week.)

In fact we can make the argument that Satan cannot be "loosened"
from the Pit and his Antichrist cannot rise until AFTER the Holy Spirit
has been taken away. How could Satan and the Antichrist RULE
when the Great Commission is still ongoing... clearly Jesus said
that HE RULES during the Great Commission;
Revelation does not allow such an argument. First, Satan is not "bound" (so he could be "loosened) until the 1000 year reign. OF COURSE the Holy Spirit will be here during the entire 70th week. There is no scripture anywhere that shows He goes back to heaven after Jesus sent Him down. There should be no question that He will be on earth during the millennial reign.

HOW could Satan and Antichrist rule? Simple, GOD has delegated 42 months of authority to the Beast. The Holy Spirit will VERY MUCH be here on earth to assist those who will be beheaded. Without His help, most would take the mark.

All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore
This shows us that Jesus delegated His authority to the church. He gave the saints authority.

BTW... the correct translation is the "end of the age" (not world)
which indicates the end of the age of the Great Commission. This would have been correct before you added "which indicates..."

Why not just believe it as written? He - God - in the person of the Holy Spirit - is going to be here until the 7th vial ends the 70th week that ends the Jewish age. But does this really tell us He will then go back to heaven? No, I think not. He will be here for the millennial reign.

we see the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]
Sorry, but the kingdom of heaven is for all time, not just a specific time. The Kingdom of heaven will be there before the GT, during the GT, and after the GT.

(Satan and the Antichrist could not RULE) until AFTER
all the elect have been "sealed" (saved).
No, this is pure imagination - and cannot be backed up with scripture. The sealing is NOT "saved." It is exactly what it says, the Father's name on their forehead. Since they follow Jesus one could say they are "saved." They are not part of the church. It may be the rapture that convinces them that Jesus IS their Messiah. They are sealed for ONE PURPOSE: their protection during the trumpet judgments - specifically the stinging locusts. (Note: there is no indication that they are "born again.") This is NOT the Holy Spirit seal in their spirit person as all believers have now.

Just so you will know, they are sealed before the 7th seal that will start the week, but the revealed man of sin - turned Beast - will not rule until chapter 13, AFTER the abomination in chapter 11. It seems they, the 144,000 will be caught up to heaven - perhaps before the Beast arises. They are seen in heaven in chapter 14, which is soon after the abomination.

That means the Holy Spirit (but not the church) must be removed BEFORE Satan and the Antichrist are able to have the POWER and SEAT [rule] and AUTHORITY during the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast.
This has already been shown to be false.

It seems I disagree with almost every point you make.

After the rapture, the Holy Spirit will no longer be needed as a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance, since we will have received it. At that time, the Holy Spirit will revert to a ministry more like His role in the Old Testament, being in the world but not sealed within believers, and no longer restraining the power of evil.

Salvation during the Tribulation will be mostly for those with Jewish heritage, but there will be some Gentiles saved. Salvation then will have to come from the testimony of the 144,000 Jewish virgins around the world and then those who belive must then keep the commandments of God.

Rev. 14:12...........
"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

 

[Major1]

It is not circular reasoning to say the Holy Spirit was there
and it was taken away. Pretty simple stuff.

.

The Holy Spirt did not come to indwell believers until Jesus ascended to heaven.

 

[iamlamad]

The Holy Spirt did not come to indwell believers until Jesus ascended to heaven.

Right: He ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down: Rev. 5:6: Circa 32 or 33 AD

 

[iamlamad]

After the rapture, the Holy Spirit will no longer be needed as a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance, since we will have received it. At that time, the Holy Spirit will revert to a ministry more like His role in the Old Testament, being in the world but not sealed within believers, and no longer restraining the power of evil.

Salvation during the Tribulation will be mostly for those with Jewish heritage, but there will be some Gentiles saved. Salvation then will have to come from the testimony of the 144,000 Jewish virgins around the world and then those who belive must then keep the commandments of God.

Rev. 14:12...........
"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

I agree with that. My point was, He will not leave. He wills still be here.

What do you mean by "saved?" I am not convinced that the born again experience will be available after the rapture that will end the church age.

They (those that turn to God during the 70th week) must come by faith, just as Abraham did. I find it interesting that the "everlasting gospel" in chapter 14 consists of "fear" and "worship" God and give glory to Him. No mention of Christ: He death, burial or His resurrection." It seems Paul's gospel ends with the church.