avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels

LightLoveHope

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But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.
Titus 3:9

Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.
2 Tim 2:14

Paul appears to be encouraging us to seek to build other up, to encourage, to reach out and come to an understanding of Jesus and His ways, not to prove something over another, but rather to simply shine a light on the path, and then follow.

I have been opposed by some, who seem to have only one approach, to knock others over on the belief that then they will know Jesus and rest on Him alone. It is like carrying a shot gun and thinking taking chunks out of others, shows them their mortality so means they will then know the power of Jesus in their lives, rather than feeling they are pious and holy.

So I get from this one should choose the people we talk with carefully, and share with the goal of drawing close to Jesus and building each other up in the faith, Amen.
 

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But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.
Titus 3:9

Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.
2 Tim 2:14

Paul appears to be encouraging us to seek to build other up, to encourage, to reach out and come to an understanding of Jesus and His ways, not to prove something over another, but rather to simply shine a light on the path, and then follow.

I have been opposed by some, who seem to have only one approach, to knock others over on the belief that then they will know Jesus and rest on Him alone. It is like carrying a shot gun and thinking taking chunks out of others, shows them their mortality so means they will then know the power of Jesus in their lives, rather than feeling they are pious and holy.

So I get from this one should choose the people we talk with carefully, and share with the goal of drawing close to Jesus and building each other up in the faith, Amen.

While I have little problem with us Christians using edgy or thought provoking ideas or verbal imagery, I think your "shotgun" analogy is a bit much, even for me. I hate to be the one to argue over what seem to be mere words, but you might want to consider where the limits are in our choice of analogies.

Just sayin' :cool:
 
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Ricky M

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Paul also said we should all be of one mind - yet we know we are nowhere near that!

What gets me is when a Christian relates a personal experience, there are so many other Christians ready to call them a liar.
 
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LightLoveHope

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While I have little problem with us Christians using edgy or thought provoking ideas or verbal imagery, I think your "shotgun" analogy is a bit much, even for me. I hate to be the one to argue over what seem to be mere words, but you might want to consider where the limits are in our choice of analogies.

Just sayin' :cool:

The simple shot gun analogy I have used, because some who claimed to have a true "experience" of God, claimed that this gave them the authority to call other believers the most evil people on the earth, worse than murderers.

And in their conversations, who was the "enemy" came down to a few sentences of belief, though people agreed 99% of theology, it was enough to become something terrible.

In one study of extreme groups, of any type, one sign of this extreme exaggeration is the worst opponents are the enemy within, who need to be rooted out, to create the pure expression of the position held.

Paul is pointing out this is actually pointless, destructive and not true.
To demonstrate how destructive this attitude is, my whole spiritual experience was rubbished, and I was called a deceiver, possessed, possibly the most evil person on a forum. And why? Because I believe the cross and Jesus's love changes our hearts and focus in life, so we can become victorious and transformed into the likeness of Christ.

Now these principles are embedded in Christ and the apostles teaching.
So for putting forward a principle in outline, is enough for me to be disowned. Now in an eternal perspective, this is the most extreme language one could us, and talking about using a shot gun is tame. A shot gun only destroys the body, these positions are attempting to condemn the soul to hell.

And this is the problem. The belief is holding certain theological positions is put above respect, love, encouragement, reaching out to another, empathy. And once one goes this far, the message has been destroyed, and fellowship in the Holy Spirit.

Jesus put is like this about the pharisees

39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,
40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
41 "I do not accept praise from men,
42 but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts."
John 5

Without the love of God in our hearts we have nothing. Because some hold to various theological positions, can just mean they have religion, like any religion, yet they do not know love or Jesus. Without starting with love in our hearts and being open and loving to others, everything else will not be helpful.
 
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LightLoveHope

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Paul also said we should all be of one mind - yet we know we are nowhere near that!

What gets me is when a Christian relates a personal experience, there are so many other Christians ready to call them a liar.

Hi Ricky,

My encouragement is to help fellow believers to empathise and understand one another, and see Jesus is working in all our lives. God is love. God is not a theologian, who inspects peoples positions, but rather plants love in peoples hearts and the fruit is their theology, thoughts, words and actions.

There is a subtle difference between a slave to sin and walking in love. A slave can never break free, a child of God with a transformed heart sees opportunities to share Gods love to others.

I do not believe any followers of Jesus call me a liar, by definition that would be to deny their own faith. But there some who are so convinced they have a "new" insight into Jesus, most of the church is evil and wrong, doomed to hell. These individuals are very vocal and personal. But praise God, shinning the light, sharing His love, we are over-comers.

And it is important for us, to realise the elect will always grow strong, and part of this is learning who we meet and interact with, and what is helpful and what is not.
God bless you.
 
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But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.
Titus 3:9

Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.
2 Tim 2:14

Paul appears to be encouraging us to seek to build other up, to encourage, to reach out and come to an understanding of Jesus and His ways, not to prove something over another, but rather to simply shine a light on the path, and then follow.

I have been opposed by some, who seem to have only one approach, to knock others over on the belief that then they will know Jesus and rest on Him alone. It is like carrying a shot gun and thinking taking chunks out of others, shows them their mortality so means they will then know the power of Jesus in their lives, rather than feeling they are pious and holy.

So I get from this one should choose the people we talk with carefully, and share with the goal of drawing close to Jesus and building each other up in the faith, Amen.

True. But are there not worthwhile controversies between believers over scriptural texts and divine purposes, which can be waged in the aim of edification and correction in the right spirit?

Salt is good, but what good is salt that loses its tang? We need to be salt to one another, for everyone will be salted with fire.
 
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LightLoveHope

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True. But are there not worthwhile controversies between believers over scriptural texts and divine purposes, which can be waged in the aim of edification and correction in the right spirit?

Salt is good, but what good is salt that loses its tang? We need to be salt to one another, for everyone will be salted with fire.
Amen. There are valid issues to work through.
Paul debated with Peter about circumcision and how we balance loving God and our neighbour alongside religious observance.

When Paul talked with Peter, Peter was not an unbeliever and lost, he was a brother who had relented to pressure from the Jewish faction of the fellowship.

Today I observed mocking of obeying God. The problem is not the intellectual issue of how do you love, how do you raise the needs of others above your own etc. but mocking others as if they are not raising a sincere issue in following Jesus and us being flawed, fragile, weak individuals who need to navigate the pressures of daily life and come to resolution and direction.

Once you start mocking others who are following Jesus, you mock Jesus himself.

I have had friends from RCC to charismatic believers, and with good heart I wish to encourage them all to listen and follow Jesus. And within both groups there are tares and wheat. I am commanded to love them all, and encourage the elect onto follow the Lord.

Once a group mocks Jesus, all hope is lost.
 
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The simple shot gun analogy I have used, because some who claimed to have a true "experience" of God, claimed that this gave them the authority to call other believers the most evil people on the earth, worse than murderers.

And in their conversations, who was the "enemy" came down to a few sentences of belief, though people agreed 99% of theology, it was enough to become something terrible.

In one study of extreme groups, of any type, one sign of this extreme exaggeration is the worst opponents are the enemy within, who need to be rooted out, to create the pure expression of the position held.

Paul is pointing out this is actually pointless, destructive and not true.
To demonstrate how destructive this attitude is, my whole spiritual experience was rubbished, and I was called a deceiver, possessed, possibly the most evil person on a forum. And why? Because I believe the cross and Jesus's love changes our hearts and focus in life, so we can become victorious and transformed into the likeness of Christ.

Now these principles are embedded in Christ and the apostles teaching.
So for putting forward a principle in outline, is enough for me to be disowned. Now in an eternal perspective, this is the most extreme language one could us, and talking about using a shot gun is tame. A shot gun only destroys the body, these positions are attempting to condemn the soul to hell.

And this is the problem. The belief is holding certain theological positions is put above respect, love, encouragement, reaching out to another, empathy. And once one goes this far, the message has been destroyed, and fellowship in the Holy Spirit.

Jesus put is like this about the pharisees

39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,
40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
41 "I do not accept praise from men,
42 but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts."
John 5

Without the love of God in our hearts we have nothing. Because some hold to various theological positions, can just mean they have religion, like any religion, yet they do not know love or Jesus. Without starting with love in our hearts and being open and loving to others, everything else will not be helpful.

On my part, I'm not going to say that you don't have love in your hear for God or that you're some kind of fake Christian for using a "shotgun" metaphor. That wasn't really a part of my previous comment, and I'm sorry to hear that some fellow Christians have thus labeled you in the past as a fake or whatever, according to what you've shared.

No, I'm just saying that in relating you're expressions of love to other people, the "shotgun" analogy probably isn't the best one and as a fellow Christian brother I'm just suggesting you come up with a better analogy to express our love for other people. Does this make sense?
 
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Once a group mocks Jesus, all hope is lost.

What if I strove against the belief that most folks are hellbound for eternity? If I believed brethren were mocking and caricaturing Jesus by denying his true character, mission, work and eventual total victory. Would you say that amounts to a foolish controversy, as it produces fellowship divisions?
 
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LightLoveHope

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What if I strove against the belief that most folks are hellbound for eternity? If I believed brethren were mocking and caricaturing Jesus by denying his true character, mission, work and eventual total victory. Would you say that amounts to a foolish controversy, as it produces fellowship divisions?

The issue I am shinning a light on, is all arguments come from an emotional and relationship context. And this often determines our positions and who is the "enemy" and who is the friend. Anyone who supports love and the ways of Jesus is a friend, and those who hate Jesus and Gods ways are enemies. This is how Jesus drew the line.

A classic argument is the sinfulness of man and their end in judgement. But no matter ones position on this, the actual way we relate to others and how they walk will probably not change. What will change is if people repent and sow to the Spirit. And we can answer such questions with a few simple words. Friendship with the world in enmity with God.

4 You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4

Often people want simplifications while ignoring the everyday detail of what good and evil is, and where Gods will and heart is. There are obvious and significant conclusions we can make from this, and in reality all sinners are doomed to the lake of fire. If one desires to oppose this, then one has strayed into heresy, over a basic theological foundation of faith.

7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.
Rev 21
 
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LightLoveHope

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On my part, I'm not going to say that you don't have love in your hear for God or that you're some kind of fake Christian for using a "shotgun" metaphor. That wasn't really a part of my previous comment, and I'm sorry to hear that some fellow Christians have thus labeled you in the past as a fake or whatever, according to what you've shared.

No, I'm just saying that in relating you're expressions of love to other people, the "shotgun" analogy probably isn't the best one and as a fellow Christian brother I'm just suggesting you come up with a better analogy to express our love for other people. Does this make sense?

I used the shot gun metaphor, because the anger and hatred expressed intended real harm and damage.
The internet takes a private writing of texts into a public domain, and things that are thought in peoples heads are spoken out in contexts where they are totally not appropriate.

My experience has been people have been hurt in their church life of the past, and often their language is laced with this hurt and desire to harm others, without understanding the sin they are committing and the damage they are doing. In most cases my few sentences had nothing to do with the response, rather I was projected to represent people of their pasts which they could not forgive, and took the full breadth of their vent.

But as soon as anger dominates, the argument has been lost. That is the ironic point. Jesus is the Lord of love, peace, joy, acceptance and empathy. So when such ideas are expressed with anger, they are something else. And it is we who are always so slow to recognise this in ourselves. So equally I speak not out of anger or revenge or desiring damage, but rather stating the ways of Jesus of to speak encouragement to love and His ways.
 
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and in reality all sinners are doomed to the lake of fire. If one desires to oppose this, then one has strayed into heresy, over a basic theological foundation of faith.

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars-

That's most everyone isn't it? And don't forget the many tryhard believers as per Matt 7:23 'Depart from me ye workers of iniquity.' And anyone who swears 'Raca' at a brother as per Matt 5:22.

So it's more like God so hates the world that he sent Jesus to condemn it. And Jesus (His Salvation) isn't the omega at all, the end is just nasty.

You can't blithely go forward with a contradictory theology like that. It's a fruitless doctrine of death and despair. I'd consider it a mockery of all God stands for.

But you see, just by way of illustration, it's not doing our prospects of fellowship much good, or is it?
 
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I used the shot gun metaphor, because the anger and hatred expressed intended real harm and damage.
The internet takes a private writing of texts into a public domain, and things that are thought in peoples heads are spoken out in contexts where they are totally not appropriate.

My experience has been people have been hurt in their church life of the past, and often their language is laced with this hurt and desire to harm others, without understanding the sin they are committing and the damage they are doing. In most cases my few sentences had nothing to do with the response, rather I was projected to represent people of their pasts which they could not forgive, and took the full breadth of their vent.

But as soon as anger dominates, the argument has been lost. That is the ironic point. Jesus is the Lord of love, peace, joy, acceptance and empathy. So when such ideas are expressed with anger, they are something else. And it is we who are always so slow to recognise this in ourselves. So equally I speak not out of anger or revenge or desiring damage, but rather stating the ways of Jesus of to speak encouragement to love and His ways.

Ok. I re-read your OP, and I think I see what you're saying. You're not saying that your love for others in spreading the Gospel is envisioned by you as if you were using a shotgun, but rather that those who aren't loving are 'like' a person who has a shotgun.

Alright. If that is your intended meaning, then I guess you're fine in bringing that to the fore.

However, in this later case then, I think I will assert that there is a time and a place to be BOLD in the face of unbelievers; we're not to be mere "reeds shaken by the wind" nor to be spiritual "pansies" who wilt away simply because the world in its false wisdom disagrees with us and seeks to stymie the delivery of the Kerygma of the Great Commission that we, as Christians, all have to make.

So, to make this conversation move along, we might think about this last bit I've just added. And it has nothing to do with "carnal force" such as the use of weapons; "carnal force" should essentially be eschewed by the Christian unless he or she actually is employed with authority within governing bodies, such as the police or other higher, legal officials. But to be simply BOLD with one's mouth in the cause of the truth of Jesus Christ, when done with the love of God and of one's neighbor, isn't a form of "carnal force."
 
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LightLoveHope

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Ok. I re-read your OP, and I think I see what you're saying. You're not saying that your love for others in spreading the Gospel is envisioned by you as if you were using a shotgun, but rather that those who aren't loving are 'like' a person who has a shotgun.

Alright. If that is your intended meaning, then I guess you're fine in bringing that to the fore.

However, in this later case then, I think I will assert that there is a time and a place to be BOLD in the face of unbelievers; we're not to be mere "reeds shaken by the wind" nor to be spiritual "pansies" who wilt away simply because the world in its false wisdom disagrees with us and seeks to stymie the delivery of the Kerygma of the Great Commission that we, as Christians, all have to make.

So, to make this conversation move along, we might think about this last bit I've just added. And it has nothing to do with "carnal force" such as the use of weapons; "carnal force" should essentially be eschewed by the Christian unless he or she actually is employed with authority within governing bodies, such as the police or other higher, legal officials. But to be simply BOLD with one's mouth in the cause of the truth of Jesus Christ, when done with the love of God and of one's neighbor, isn't a form of "carnal force."

"carnal force" is an interesting concept to label physical action.
But the issue is the whole of our faith is founded on the word, Jesus, Gods message to mankind. And what this means, how it is implied, how we testify to it, respect it, respond to it matters. And its impact on us is spiritual, emotional, life changing. Therefore care needs to be taken when claiming a high ground of authority to then attempt to deny those who hold to the same tenants from knowing its reality. It is clearly absurd. One analogy would be a football support attacking another supporter of not being a true supporter because they support a different team. The truth is the experience of both are very similar, and they can appreciate similar approaches and experiences, and some even discover some then change the team they follow.
 
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LightLoveHope

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That's most everyone isn't it? And don't forget the many tryhard believers as per Matt 7:23 'Depart from me ye workers of iniquity.' And anyone who swears 'Raca' at a brother as per Matt 5:22.

So it's more like God so hates the world that he sent Jesus to condemn it. And Jesus (His Salvation) isn't the omega at all, the end is just nasty.

You can't blithely go forward with a contradictory theology like that. It's a fruitless doctrine of death and despair. I'd consider it a mockery of all God stands for.

But you see, just by way of illustration, it's not doing our prospects of fellowship much good, or is it?

God does hate the approach the world has in rebellion against love and life, but He has provided grace and a time for the elect to be saved out of this world.

The end of the lost is truly tragic, but inevitable, unless they open up and start listening to Jesus. The great promise is eternal dwelling with God and fulfilling His purpose in creating man in His Kingdom. If you observe how corruption and sin tends to dominate all human activity and society, which would you choose, the world or the Kingdom of Heaven?
 
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The end of the lost is truly tragic, but inevitable, unless they open up and start listening to Jesus.

Well God's love doesn't expire when you do. Revelation's final chapters are clear that the nations who were all consumed by fire (20:9), emerge repentant (21:24-26) and come in through the ever-open gates for healing (22:2).

Most people are lost and deceived, if you're lost you can't find your way home, by definition. That's why the shepherd leaves the flock to go hunt down that 1 last lost sheep.

Don't you see the inherent problem in blaming the lost and blind man for not finding his way?
 
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Well God's love doesn't expire when you do. Revelation's final chapters are clear that the nations who were all consumed by fire (20:9), emerge repentant (21:24-26) and come in through the ever-open gates for healing (22:2).

Most people are lost and deceived, if you're lost you can't find your way home, by definition. That's why the shepherd leaves the flock to go hunt down that 1 last lost sheep.

Don't you see the inherent problem in blaming the lost and blind man for not finding his way?
There is a simple question here. Some believe man when shown God, will choose His ways.
The Bible shows the opposite. People rebel, and take time to learn reality and how love works. Look at most churches. Even the elect have issues.

If God can make everyone's heart loving and perfect in a flash, why preach faith and repentance?

Our privilege to be on Christs throne, is so free and chosen, that only the few find it. I have met and lived with those who fundamentally never have understood love and grace, only selfishness and defence. Living in the Kingdom would never work for them.
 
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There is a simple question here. Some believe man when shown God, will choose His ways.

None come except who are drawn. You can't show people a caricature of God as the 'love me or burn forever' mafioso and expect you'll get anything other than protest atheism. An do it should be.

People rebel, and take time to learn reality and how love works. Look at most churches. Even the elect have issues.

Exactly, we'll all need a good scrub with fuller's soap and refining in the purity of God's fiery essence. The flesh wars against the spirit.

So this is the purpose of the lake of fire, it's to repair, to set right, make righteous, not some hideous infinite bbq-grill punishment where even the young rape victim suicide gets sent for rejecting Jesus. It's to cleanse sin, the ultimate remedy for unbelief. Love the sinner, hate the sin. Grace abounds, God is merciful, He's no hypocrite.

If God can make everyone's heart loving and perfect in a flash, why preach faith and repentance?

People love their sin. That's the verdict. They need to give it up. It hurts to overcome addiction. But to the overcomer goes the free gift of water of life. It's about encouragement - 'Come, say the Spirit and the Bride', wash your robes in Lamb's blood, you can find life with the help of grace and truth, the gates are always open!

Our privilege to be on Christs throne, is so free and chosen, that only the few find it.

So why would the mainstream doctrines be the way then? Is there a narrow path megachurch?

I have met and lived with those who fundamentally never have understood love and grace, only selfishness and defence.

Don't you see, they need Christ all the more. They're just not ready to confess their need. Salvation is not for the 'deserving' that's the pharisees' view, it's for the broken, the blind, the sick, the lame, the prisoner, the oppressed...

Living in the Kingdom would never work for them.

God does not want any to perish but for all to come to a knowledge of the truth. His plan is to be all in all. It's exitus et reditus - all things proceed from God and to Him all shall return. Selah.
 
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Its like going in to this room where every time the door opens.. you see Christ. He being the reason we come together. To lift Him up.. to bring all glory and praise to Him. Where it not about us. Its hard to put down our personal belief. To know we are not right only He is. I know very personal friend preacher that at 70 still said "I want to give God all the glory but.. I want some of it". We all do this but never say it.

When I read the NT...they have a love for each other and for God. Its all Him and they never want to be seen..only Him. Do we go in willing to learn to listen to know we could be wrong? Or to show them we are right and they are missing it. Right there from the start.. WE are right. We went in 1st.. Christ follows.

Christ.. same in the flesh from where? Yeah.. look how He walked and talked. He does not have to answer to man about anything. Everything they see hear feel walk on He made and yet He became His own creation, became the lowest.. took SIN..all the sin of the world on Himself. How many times do we have to make sure they KNOW their missing it.. got it wrong and WE really know the true answer?

What get from the word is.. they never wanted to be seen. Peter and John.. "why look at us as if we did this with our own power? Its faith in that name". The people looked at them.. they took that and pointed it right to Christ. We don't look this as some are weak in the faith.. some are still after all these years still drinking milk won't meat. Everything must point to Him.. give Him alone all the glory and praise.

We hold on to things of this world that are not of God in any way and it does not bother us at all. We love .. I DO... watching movies where man has powers of a god and.. its ok! Where GOD/Christ are never talked about and .. its ok. The enemy doesnt always brake down the door to get in. So the fruits of the spirit and 1st Cor 13 and Phil is just part of how I wish to see and walk.. pfft but man do I always get in His way lol
 
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LightLoveHope

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None come except who are drawn. You can't show people a caricature of God as the 'love me or burn forever' mafioso and expect you'll get anything other than protest atheism. An do it should be.



Exactly, we'll all need a good scrub with fuller's soap and refining in the purity of God's fiery essence. The flesh wars against the spirit.

So this is the purpose of the lake of fire, it's to repair, to set right, make righteous, not some hideous infinite bbq-grill punishment where even the young rape victim suicide gets sent for rejecting Jesus. It's to cleanse sin, the ultimate remedy for unbelief. Love the sinner, hate the sin. Grace abounds, God is merciful, He's no hypocrite.



People love their sin. That's the verdict. They need to give it up. It hurts to overcome addiction. But to the overcomer goes the free gift of water of life. It's about encouragement - 'Come, say the Spirit and the Bride', wash your robes in Lamb's blood, you can find life with the help of grace and truth, the gates are always open!



So why would the mainstream doctrines be the way then? Is there a narrow path megachurch?



Don't you see, they need Christ all the more. They're just not ready to confess their need. Salvation is not for the 'deserving' that's the pharisees' view, it's for the broken, the blind, the sick, the lame, the prisoner, the oppressed...



God does not want any to perish but for all to come to a knowledge of the truth. His plan is to be all in all. It's exitus et reditus - all things proceed from God and to Him all shall return. Selah.

Salvation is for those who believe and are prepared to follow.
Paul was a pharisee. Others were sinners, tax collectors, adulterers, but they all repented took up their cross and followed after.

You appear to be expressing a grace for all view, no matter their faith.
When I feel the touch of Gods love in my heart, I emphathise that all will listen. Except when I realise that with a hard heart nothing gets through, let alone the truth about God.

The Key issue, do we have a heart open enough to listen and follow.
It appears that is the hardest thing for any human to do, which is why so few get to that point. I am not persuaded that is because this is not the gospel, but rather this is the boundary between this world and the Kingdom of heaven.

I listen to Jesus exclaiming how is it that people do not hear, do not conceive and know the offer before them and their own state so miss it all. God bless you
 
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