Authority of the Church

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Bornagain15

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I'm sure this question has been asked a hundred times on here before, but I've never heard an answer. The Church says that the Bible and the Church have equal authority. Upon what is this based, and how could the Church justifiably give itself that kind of authority?
 

Kepha

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Bornagain15 said:
I'm sure this question has been asked a hundred times on here before, but I've never heard an answer. The Church says that the Bible and the Church have equal authority. Upon what is this based, and how could the Church justifiably give itself that kind of authority?
The Complete 73 book Bible came from the Church. Jesus established His Church, and conferred His authority to the Apostolic community to bind and loose. (Matthew 16:17-19, 18:16-17)
 
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OrthodoxTexan

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The authority of the Bible is dependent upon the authority of the Church that canonized her by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. If the Church is of no authority, than its fruit, the Bible, has no authority. The Church did not give herself authority, our Lord and Saviour gave her her authority.

[/Wandering TAWer]
 
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Paul S

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Bornagain15 said:
I'm sure this question has been asked a hundred times on here before, but I've never heard an answer. The Church says that the Bible and the Church have equal authority. Upon what is this based, and how could the Church justifiably give itself that kind of authority?

The Church gives herself no authority whatsoever - it comes directly from Jesus. "And I say to thee, that thou art Peter, and on this rock I shall build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against her."

Here, Our Lord is promising Peter that His Church will never teach error, because for the Church to teach something false means that the devil would have conquered her.

Also, throughout St. Paul's Epistles, he refers to both Scripture and Tradition - he tells people to listen to that which he (and the other Apostles) preached, as well as to what he writes. We also see Peter, as head of the Church, settle disputes on doctrine. There was no Bible for several hundred years until after Jesus ascended into heaven. But there was a Church from the beginning.
 
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PassthePeace1

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Bornagain15 said:
I'm sure this question has been asked a hundred times on here before, but I've never heard an answer. The Church says that the Bible and the Church have equal authority. Upon what is this based, and how could the Church justifiably give itself that kind of authority?

The Church didn't give itself that kind authority....Jesus did. :thumbsup:

Read Matt 16:13-20
 
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Bornagain15

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I've heard some Protestant churches argue that when Jesus told Peter "on this rock I shall build My Church" that Jesus wasn't referring to Peter. How do we know that Jesus was referring to Peter and not Himself? Jesus said, "Thou art Peter, and on this rock..." Wouldn't He have said, "You are the rock upon which I shall build My Church..." or something like that? I'm sorry if this sounds like I'm trolling, but as an attender of Catholic church I'd like to know the answer.
 
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Bornagain15 said:
I'm sure this question has been asked a hundred times on here before, but I've never heard an answer. The Church says that the Bible and the Church have equal authority. Upon what is this based, and how could the Church justifiably give itself that kind of authority?

Actually, this question needs to be turned around. Upon what basis does the Bible have authority over all, including the Church?

1 Timothy 3:15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

Matthew 18:15-17 "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

Ephesians 5:25-27 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.

Jesus founded a Church, He did not instruct His apostles to "write scripture". The Bible came from the Church that Jesus founded, the Church did not come from the Bible. The Bible yes, is all true, but the Church has been given the authority to interpret and protect it. The Bible, Tradition, and the Magisterium of the Church are all equally important. To answer your question, the Church did NOT give herself the authority, Jesus did. Please tell me where it is mentioned that the Bible has sole authority.
 
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Paul S

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Bornagain15 said:
I've heard some Protestant churches argue that when Jesus told Peter "on this rock I shall build My Church" that Jesus wasn't referring to Peter. How do we know that Jesus was referring to Peter and not Himself? Jesus said, "Thou art Peter, and on this rock..." Wouldn't He have said, "You are the rock upon which I shall build My Church..." or something like that? I'm sorry if this sounds like I'm trolling, but as an attender of Catholic church I'd like to know the answer.

Jesus was making a pun. In Latin (and the same pun exists in Greek), this verse is, "Tu es Petrus, et super hanc petram aedificabo ecclesiam meam." (Thou art Peter [Rock], and on this rock I shall build my church.) The reason for the masculine "Petrus" and feminine "petra" is because Simon is a man, and you can't give him a feminine word for a name. In Aramaic, the word used for both is "Kepha", often Latinised to "Cephas" later in the Bible.

It makes no sense to interpret it as "You are Rock, and on this other rock I will build my church." Basic grammar tells us that "this" refers to the one just mentioned, that is, Peter.

Remember also that whenever God changes someone's name, that person becomes very important - Abram to Abraham, Jacob to Israel, Saul to Paul. The same is true when God changed Simon to Peter.
 
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PassthePeace1

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Bornagain15 said:
I've heard some Protestant churches argue that when Jesus told Peter "on this rock I shall build My Church" that Jesus wasn't referring to Peter. How do we know that Jesus was referring to Peter and not Himself? Jesus said, "Thou art Peter, and on this rock..." Wouldn't He have said, "You are the rock upon which I shall build My Church..." or something like that? I'm sorry if this sounds like I'm trolling, but as an attender of Catholic church I'd like to know the answer.

The church founded on Jesus, but Jesus is in Heaven now...the Church is His Visiable Body on earth, or as we call it his Mystical Body. He gave this Church, His authority here on earth. It can be supported both with Scripture, and historical documents.

In the OT, when God established His Covenant with the nation of Israel, He provided for a living, continuing authority, in the Mosaic priesthood. This authority provided a safeguard and authentic interpreter of Sacred Scripture. Now, when Christ the fulfillment of the OT Covenant established His Church, the New Israel, He set up a living, continuing authority to teach, govern and sanctify in His name.

I hope this help, explain it alittle...:)
 
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Paul S

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PassthePeace1 said:
And your point is? Of course Jesus is the High Priest, no one is disputing that...but we also share in his priesthood. 1Peter 2:9 :liturgy: :priest:

We share in the common priesthood, but not in the sacrificial priesthood. There is a difference - God does call certain men to His priesthood and sets them apart from the rest of us. Our role is to evangelise the world, not to be in the sanctuary at Mass, and there's been enough blurring of this already. You may not have meant any of this, and this isn't specifically directed at you, but this is a teaching that needs to be properly understood.
 
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PassthePeace1

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Paul S said:
We share in the common priesthood, but not in the sacrificial priesthood. There is a difference - God does call certain men to His priesthood and sets them apart from the rest of us. Our role is to evangelise the world, not to be in the sanctuary at Mass, and there's been enough blurring of this already. You may not have meant any of this, and this isn't specifically directed at you, but this is a teaching that needs to be properly understood.

Yes, I know that, I guess I should have made it clearer...I don't always establish my thoughts in writing very well. Sorry, for any confusion...Pam
 
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Skripper

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85 "The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."47 This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.

86 "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."48 87 Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: "He who hears you, hears me",49 the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.
 
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Bornagain15 said:
The Church says that the Bible and the Church have equal authority. Upon what is this based, and how could the Church justifiably give itself that kind of authority?

Bornagain,
Please ask yourself this; what other Church would have authority other than the one which compiled the very Bible you read before your eyes?

Blessings,

-Davide
 
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PassthePeace1

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PassthePeace1 said:
And your point is? Of course Jesus is the High Priest, no one is disputing that...but we also share in his priesthood. 1Peter 2:9 :liturgy: :priest:

I am sorry, I am guilty of rash judgement here...I misunderstood his quote, my deepest apologies to Seek....:bow:
 
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Benedicta00

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Bornagain15 said:
I'm sure this question has been asked a hundred times on here before, but I've never heard an answer. The Church says that the Bible and the Church have equal authority. Upon what is this based, and how could the Church justifiably give itself that kind of authority?
How can a book?

The Church does not give herself authority- Christ gave it to her. Check out Matthew 16.
 
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Benedicta00

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These versus can be interpreted a different way.

Logical,

I think you just summed it all up, they can an should be seen in different ways but none of those ways contradict each other or that Jesus didn’t build His Church on Peter and gave to Him His authority to teach the faithful.

Combine that with John’s gospel asking Peter to "feed my lambs." And then in Acts where we see over and over Peter “standing up” and taking the role of authority and more important- the people listening to him. Then we have Paul who says point blank, that he stood up to the Rock. (Kephas not Pertros the stone).

So there you have- you can interpret Matthew in all the ways it can be but none of the various ways pits any one interpretation against the other.
 
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stray bullet

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Bornagain15 said:
I've heard some Protestant churches argue that when Jesus told Peter "on this rock I shall build My Church" that Jesus wasn't referring to Peter. How do we know that Jesus was referring to Peter and not Himself? Jesus said, "Thou art Peter, and on this rock..." Wouldn't He have said, "You are the rock upon which I shall build My Church..." or something like that? I'm sorry if this sounds like I'm trolling, but as an attender of Catholic church I'd like to know the answer.


[bible]Matthew 16:18[/bible]

Why did Jesus say "thou art Peter" in that sentence? To remind Peter that he was Peter? Was Peter unaware he was Peter?

The sentence doesn't make any sense whatsoever unless He was referring to Peter as the rock. Peter didn't need a reminder. Telling him he was Peter really doesn't fit in unless he is specifically pointing out that he was the rock Jesus was referring to in his statement.

Protestants and Orthodox deny the role of Peter as the foundation, when it is clear the early Church and even the eastern Patriarch believed just as Catholics do now. Matthew 16 shows the role of Peter, so it needs to be spun into something about faith or whatever angle they use now.
 
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