Authority and decision making in the Eastern Orthodox Church

[PeaceB]

Without a single central authority, how do Eastern Orthodox go about answering “modern” questions such the morality of IVF, genetic engineering, and so forth?

In a sports game you have a head referee and several other referees. Generally if there is a dispute over a play they will huddle and try to come to an agreement, but situations arise where agreement cannot be found and the head referee has to exercise authority and make a final decision. Were it not so, in some circumstances the game simply could not go on.

Certainly God is the ultimate umpire, but for whatever reason he does not always appear in person to tell us things like “IVF is a no-go” or “IVF is a go.”

So let’s say that hypothetically your Bishops got together and took a vote on IVF. 50% them say it is a no-go, and the other 50% of them say that it is a go. Where do you go from there? How do those types of things play out?

It would seem that when it comes down to it, each individual person in the Orthodox Church is free to hold whatever he wants, similar to Protestants?

Or do you guys have defined dogmas that every member of the Church must hold? Who has the authority to enforce them?

Is every person bound, for example, to follow the teaching of his Bishop? What happens when two Bishops disagree on a point? How would that be resolved if there is not a single person above them both in whom authority is vested?

It would seem that you would have to say “God is the final authority” or “The Holy Spirit is the final authority” or “Scripture is the final authority” which is all true course, but I don’t see how that gets you to an actual answer to the question if various people disagree on what God an Scripture have to say about the matter.

How do you find folks go about dealing with problems like that?

 

[ArmyMatt]

whatever falls in line with the consensus from the beginning. bishops get together, discuss, and then those decisions are engrained or rejected by the whole Church.

which, by the way, is how Rome used to operate

 

[PeaceB]

whatever falls in line with the consensus from the beginning. bishops get together, discuss, and then those decisions are engrained or rejected by the whole Church.

which, by the way, is how Rome used to operate

Thank you.

 

[prodromos]

So let’s say that hypothetically your Bishops got together and took a vote on IVF. 50% them say it is a no-go, and the other 50% of them say that it is a go. Where do you go from there? How do those types of things play out?

That's a hypothetical which doesn't seem to arise in the Orthodox Church. Do you see examples like that in the Catholic Church?

 

[PeaceB]

That's a hypothetical which doesn't seem to arise in the Orthodox Church. Do you see examples like that in the Catholic Church?

I am pretty sure that at councils like Trent they vote to approve the final documents, but the Pope has the final say. I am not aware of any issues in particular where there was an even split among bishops though, if that is what you mean.

 

[prodromos]

I am pretty sure that at councils like Trent they vote to approve the final documents, but the Pope has the final say. I am not aware of any issues in particular where there was an even split among bishops though, if that is what you mean.

Can you think of any examples where the Pope has overruled the vote of the bishops?

 

[PeaceB]

Can you think of any examples where the Pope has overruled the vote of the bishops?

No councils immediately come to mind, but I would not be surprised to find that. I will look when I have a chance.

From what I recall, before Humanae Vitae came out on birth control, almost all of the Bishops that were on the commission to investigate the issue went against the pope.

 

[ArmyMatt]

No councils immediately come to mind, but I would not be surprised to find that. I will look when I have a chance.

can you think of any Councils or bishops that have overridden Popes?

 

[PeaceB]

can you think of any Councils or bishops that have overridden Popes?

Yes. Do you have a particular one in mind?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Yes. Do you have a particular one in mind?

of course, I asked because of your earlier statement that the Pope has the final say.

 

[prodromos]

It would seem that when it comes down to it, each individual person in the Orthodox Church is free to hold whatever he wants, similar to Protestants?

Not sure how I missed this before.
I wanted to ask how on earth you arrived at this conclusion? It is so far from the truth that it didn't even register the first time I read it.

 

[PeaceB]

Not sure how I missed this before.
I wanted to ask how on earth you arrived at this conclusion? It is so far from the truth that it didn't even register the first time I read it.

Well. I am not asserting that it is true. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Perhaps not so much at the level of each individual layperson, but it seems that basically no bishop or priest has any authority to tell another bishop or priest what to do. It's kind of like having the USA with 50 independent states, but without a Supreme Court to rule when there are disputes between the states, so ultimately each state could interpret the constitution (Scripture and Tradition) as it pleases.

 

[prodromos]

Well. I am not asserting that it is true. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Perhaps not so much at the level of each individual layperson, but it seems that basically no bishop or priest has any authority to tell another bishop or priest what to do. It's kind of like having the USA with 50 independent states, but without a Supreme Court to rule when there are disputes between the states, so ultimately each state could interpret the constitution (Scripture and Tradition) as it pleases.

Bishops are subject to their councils. They are in the Church, not above it. The conciliar structure established by the Apostles has served us well for 2000 years. Where do you find fault with it?

 

[PeaceB]

Bishops are subject to their councils. They are in the Church, not above it. The conciliar structure established by the Apostles has served us well for 2000 years. Where do you find fault with it?

I did not say that I find fault with it.

I just wanted to know how you would deal with particular questions like the one in the OP, where there are “modern” questions not resolved in prior councils (like questions relating to IVF or genetic engineering, for example). Are people just free to decide for themselves if they can do IVF, if there is no uniform opinion among bishops on that issue, etc.

Or even more generally, I wanted to know what the exercise of authority or discipline looks like in the Eastern Orthodox Church, on a practical every day level.

Is each Bishop free to interpret the councils for himself? In that sense it would seem a bit similar to how Protestants view Scripture (not that this is necessarily bad).

 

[FireDragon76]

If it were a 50/50 split, why not simply say bishops agree to disagree? Obviously, if there is widespread disagreement, then its not an essential to agree upon.

 

[ArmyMatt]

If it were a 50/50 split, why not simply say bishops agree to disagree? Obviously, if there is widespread disagreement, then its not an essential to agree upon.

except that is not how the Councils work. no one just, agreed to disagree when it came to marriage at Gangra. plus, often the Ecumenical Councils were split per side, and often the heretical side had more numbers even at the council. to say if it was 50/50 it was not essential is wrong.

 

[prodromos]

I did not say that I find fault with it.

Yet you keep drawing false equivalences with Protestants.

I just wanted to know how you would deal with particular questions like the one in the OP, where there are “modern” questions not resolved in prior councils (like questions relating to IVF or genetic engineering, for example). Are people just free to decide for themselves if they can do IVF, if there is no uniform opinion among bishops on that issue, etc.

Since IVF harvests and fertilises several eggs, some of which end up being destroyed, it does not seem necessary for the bishops to make any statement since the procedure results in the taking of lives. Orthodox Christians having difficulty conceiving have recourse to the Timio Zoni of Panagia at the Holy Monastery of Vatopedi.

Or even more generally, I wanted to know what the exercise of authority or discipline looks like in the Eastern Orthodox Church, on a practical every day level.

I don't work at the Archdiocese so I can't help you there. I can't remember the last time someone had to be disciplined by the bishop.

Is each Bishop free to interpret the councils for himself?

The bishops have the authority to bind and loose. They may apply the canons with exactitude or with leniency according to what is for the spiritual well being of those being disciplined.

In that sense it would seem a bit similar to how Protestants view Scripture

I don't see how.

(not that this is necessarily bad).

Are you sure about that.

 

[PeaceB]

Yet you keep drawing false equivalences with Protestants.

Since IVF harvests and fertilises several eggs, some of which end up being destroyed, it does not seem necessary for the bishops to make any statement since the procedure results in the taking of lives. Orthodox Christians having difficulty conceiving have recourse to the Timio Zoni of Panagia at the Holy Monastery of Vatopedi.

I don't work at the Archdiocese so I can't help you there. I can't remember the last time someone had to be disciplined by the bishop.

The bishops have the authority to bind and loose. They may apply the canons with exactitude or with leniency according to what is for the spiritual well being of those being disciplined.

I don't see how.

Are you sure about that.

Thank you.

 

[prodromos]

If you are wondering how bishops are disciplined, the former patriarch of Jerusalem was removed from the position by a synod of his peers a little over a decade ago. Bishop Irenaios appealed to the other patriarchs, but their synods upheld the decision of the Jerusalem synod.