Australian Royal Commission finds 7% of Catholic priests are/were pedophiles

Tallguy88

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Two wrongs don't make a right. Let's not pretend that denying men their own urges is anything from god. It's just control and its spawned child molestation.
So if they had been allowed to marry, they wouldn't have molested children? Not having sex causes people to want to sleep with children? Sorry, not buying it, especially when the rate of offending is roughly equal regardless of whether the clergy are celibate or married.

Also, no one is forced to be celibate. Priests choose celibacy. Sometimes they decide to quit the priesthood and get married. The Church doesn't stop them from leaving. They can even still be Catholics in good standing, just not able to act as priests anymore.
 
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Tallguy88

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I don't blame the men I blame the doctrine that has corrupted them to sin against children. I think this is the sin that god will never forgive, who ever wrote this lie against mans very nature.
And what doctrine corrupted married Protestant clergy to molest children at a a roughly equal or even slightly higher rate than celibate Catholic priests?
 
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Paidiske

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Not from me, tallguy. The how to prevent abuse conversation is one I want to have.

What do you make of the idea that the power dynamics in the church might need to significantly need to change for that to happen?
 
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Tallguy88

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Not from me, tallguy. The how to prevent abuse conversation is one I want to have.

What do you make of the idea that the power dynamics in the church might need to significantly need to change for that to happen?
I'd need examples to know what you mean
 
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Zoii

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The way forward for future victims is a system that assures transparency, is investigated independently, and eradicates the instituional protectionist operandum modi to the point of complete cover up. Victims need acknowledgement and an apology as a start.

Equally in this type of environment those accused need some level of protection. Its not unreasonable to imagine there may be the odd case of being falsely accused, ..... but being accused in any way would be shattering.
 
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Zoii

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So I guess we're through talking about ways to prevent and respond to clergy sexual abuse and are just going with full-on anti-Catholicism. Have fun with that.
I support Tallguys comments - this isn't exclusively a catholic clergy problem...its not even a clergy problem...Its a problem of institutions who are charged with the care of children. Whats needed now is stringent systems for the prevention of further offences, and systems to detect and report offences when they occur, and better systems to support victims.

And this is not just the obligation of the institution, its the obligation of everyone not to be a silent witness to suspicions of criminal activity because it doesn't happen in my church/club...and he just isn't that type of guy.
 
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Davidnic

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Not from me, tallguy. The how to prevent abuse conversation is one I want to have.

What do you make of the idea that the power dynamics in the church might need to significantly need to change for that to happen?

Molestation is also a problem in broader society so a good thing might be to look at the similarities. For instance a Department if Education study (I seem to remember from 2004) showed that the abuse of children in the American School system is 100 times more likely than abuse by priests. One estimate was that in California alone 422,000 public-school students would be abused by an authority figure before they graduated. This is almost 4 times the possible number that could happen if every Catholic school student in the state was abused.

In 2015 the Methodist Church in Britain apologized for nearly 2000 cases of abuse since 1950.

Some stats show that since 1950 the Catholic Church in America has has and average of 238 potentially credible accusations of abuse a year since 1950. Some made years later, but data in 2007 showed that it could be averaged to that number. Protestant Churches in America are estimated to have received 260, no data on what was deemed credible. That number is from a (I think June of) 2007 report from the three main insurances companies who handle such claims.

The factor seems to be access to children. Team that with what was a nearly global misunderstanding of who can be an abuser and that led to both the inability to accept evidence and the protection of accused authority figures...and you have a serious issue.

Now, it has become better in many places. But I think to make any headway on why it happens where it does we need to look at all places it happens at high percentages and take common factors.

Abuse in one place does not justify abuse in another. But I think we have to look at common factors. And Celibacy is just not one. Access to Children combined with ignorance of the problem and reluctance to accept that there could be "Good guy/girl abusers" seems to have really made an epidemic that the people to desire to abuse knew enough to exploit.
 
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Davidnic

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When I took my protecting God's children training they had a video that interviewed abusers in jail. And the factors they take into account when planning and grooming are...simply disgusting.
 
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Paidiske

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I don't think celibacy is an issue in and of itself, in terms of a lack of sex.

I have seen some credible work suggesting that in the way that celibacy contributes both to personal isolation, loneliness, lack of normal intimacy, and a clerical culture in which clergy are seen as "different" and special, set apart from norms which apply to other people, it can be a contributing factor. (It is harder to put someone on a pedestal when his wife is in the background reminding you that he's just an ordinary guy who gets manflu and doesn't pick up his socks... )

Clericalism in general is a problem, and it feeds into abuse and abuse cover ups (not just in Catholic circles, either). Breaking down clericalism, by sharing real power and decision-making with the laity in a much more substantial way, would be a healthy thing and is one step I've seen recommended towards the kind of cultural change that is needed.

At the very least, working in environments where team ministry was the norm, and clergy shared responsibility for their work with colleagues whom they saw daily and - if they didn't have families - with whom they lived, would help to break down some of the unhelpful psychological dynamics of the role, and also remove opportunities for wrongdoing.

As it is, the power and spiritual elitism of the clergy can be attractive for people who are immature and whose identity is not well-formed, and for whom abuse is a danger when the stress of the role inevitably becomes too much. (And yes, ideally such men would never be ordained, but in the real world some people are ordained who shouldn't be. No selection and discernment process is perfect).

There is also real need to break down codes of silence around matters of abuse (actually all sins of power). There needs to be transparency of discipline, and a commitment to truth-telling, which up until now we have not had. (For example, from my own personal experience, I knew a bishop who lost his position due to having an affair with someone in his pastoral care; but all that was told to his congregations was that he had "resigned for personal reasons." Then as the truth gradually became known, there was much more hurt, sense of betrayal and so on, than if the church had just been honest up front about what he had done!)

I do believe that both screening and formation are vastly improved on the era which produced most of the clergy of the abuse crisis. And that is good. But I'm not sure that we have gone deep enough, or whether we have just mostly dealt with surface issues.

So, action points:

- Allow clergy to marry and have families, as part of a commitment to breaking down clericalist culture
- Take other measures to break down clericalism
- Share real power with the laity (including women) at every level of church governance
- Set up team ministry situations so that clergy are not isolated, left unaccountable, without resources to manage stress etc
- Become transparent and honest with the public where unethical conduct has occurred

That's what I've seen recommended in the academic literature from those who have studied these matters. Is there anything there that is fundamentally unacceptable to the church(es)?
 
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Dave-W

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Well if it's not lack of sex there must be an evil within the clergy of Catholics. There is no way in gods church that a child molestation could take place.
It happens in every denomination.
 
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Dave-W

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- Allow clergy to marry and have families, as part of a commitment to breaking down clericalist culture
The way I understand scripture it is unbiblical to have singles in congregational leadership.

"... husband of one wife ..." which excludes the unmarried.
 
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loveofourlord

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Molestation is also a problem in broader society so a good thing might be to look at the similarities. For instance a Department if Education study (I seem to remember from 2004) showed that the abuse of children in the American School system is 100 times more likely than abuse by priests. One estimate was that in California alone 422,000 public-school students would be abused by an authority figure before they graduated. This is almost 4 times the possible number that could happen if every Catholic school student in the state was abused.

In 2015 the Methodist Church in Britain apologized for nearly 2000 cases of abuse since 1950.

Some stats show that since 1950 the Catholic Church in America has has and average of 238 potentially credible accusations of abuse a year since 1950. Some made years later, but data in 2007 showed that it could be averaged to that number. Protestant Churches in America are estimated to have received 260, no data on what was deemed credible. That number is from a (I think June of) 2007 report from the three main insurances companies who handle such claims.

The factor seems to be access to children. Team that with what was a nearly global misunderstanding of who can be an abuser and that led to both the inability to accept evidence and the protection of accused authority figures...and you have a serious issue.

Now, it has become better in many places. But I think to make any headway on why it happens where it does we need to look at all places it happens at high percentages and take common factors.

Abuse in one place does not justify abuse in another. But I think we have to look at common factors. And Celibacy is just not one. Access to Children combined with ignorance of the problem and reluctance to accept that there could be "Good guy/girl abusers" seems to have really made an epidemic that the people to desire to abuse knew enough to exploit.

yes, though on average a teacher will be arrested and dealt with if they are caught, the priests on average were still raping many children long after caught, because they would be shuffled off elsewhere before they could be arrested or such. Again it was the handling of these guys that is the real issue/
 
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Zoii

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Is there anything there that is fundamentally unacceptable to the church(es)?

Nurses Doctors and teachers are required by law to report child sexual abuse or reasonable suspicion of same.... what is your view of extending that to clergy.
 
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Zoii

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So, action points:

- Become transparent and honest with the public where unethical conduct has occurred
Is there anything there that is fundamentally unacceptable to the church(es)?
An issue you haven't mentioned is compensation to the victims. While ever the Catholic Church holds to the Australian High Court Decision that the Catholic Church, as a whole, cannot be held legally (and thus financially) responsible for the actions of its priests who sexually abused children; then it continues to undermine justice and good will towards its victims.
MAKE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH LEGALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR COMPENSATING ITS ABUSE VICTIMS | CommunityRun
 
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Paidiske

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Nurses Doctors and teachers are required by law to report child sexual abuse or reasonable suspicion of same.... what is your view of extending that to clergy.

It already does. Failure to disclose is a criminal offence for every adult in Victoria regardless of profession. I have acted in accord with that legislation before.

I think any sort of mandatory reporting legislation can have difficulties, but I have no problem with such legislation, where it exists, covering clergy as well.

Compensation is a separate issue to prevention, but you are right that it is another area which we have not typically done well.
 
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Zoii

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Molestation is also a problem in broader society so a good thing might be to look at the similarities. For instance a Department if Education study (I seem to remember from 2004) showed that the abuse of children in the American School system is 100 times more likely than abuse by priests.
That isnt consistent with research that Ive read. Do you have a source for your stats that I can review? Bear in mind that in 2004 we had no idea of the massive scale of child sexual abuse within the church. Thus your reference may no longer be relevant.
 
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