Attitude of certain online Christians and Science... (resolved)

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

(Now, I feel that I should say a few things before I post the OP for this thread:
1: Yes, I am a VERY new member. Having only just signed up. However, I have been a lurker on this site, specifically the Physical and Life Sciences and the Creation and Evolution sub-forums for.. ooh, seven years now? I think it's seven. Could be eight years. However, I feel this subject needs to be discussed. However, if this is in the wrong forum, I have no worries about the mods moving it to the correct forum.
and 2: This thread is not about the discussion of science. This thread will not be about the Theory of Evolution. It will not be about climate change, and it will not be about the discussion of any science trends of theories. This thread will be about the attitudes of a certain subset of Western Christianity and sciences.)

Now, as I said in my introduction, I have been a lurker on Christian Forums for either seven or eight years, so I've seen a few things in my time. And one of the things I have noticed during my time as a lurker is (what I can quite frankly describe as) a pretty disturbing attitude from certain Christians on this site.
I won't beat about the bush here and say that all of these people are on the extreme wing of Western Christianity, so this thread only targets them: the Young Earth Creationists. Those who stick to a literal reading of the Bible and who claim that it is real and the only true thing (which is something else wrong entirely, but we'll leave that aside here).

To cut a long story short: these people do not accept anything from science that goes against their views. And I, among many people, will accept that. That is their right to do so, both in Britain (where I'm from) and the continental US. HOWEVER, what I cannot abide is the arrogance these people exhibit when discussing science.
Through my time lurking this site, I have seen these people write down such things as (and nearly all of these are paraphrases for brevity's sake):

• "Science is only an opinion."
• "Science does not listen to fringe groups, ergo Science is wrong."
• "Science is of the Anti-Christ."
• "Science has been wrong in the past, ergo it must be wrong now."
• And many others that would take too long to post.

And the thing I have seen from many of these people is that they have ZERO background in any of the sciences (and to be honest, neither do I. The highest learning certificate I have is an A* in GCSE Level History, which is a subject I still enjoy reading about as a hobby). So this fundamentally tells one thing: that these people think so highly of themselves and what knowledge they believe they posses, they take the view that they are authorities on the subjects they are discussing.
On the internet, this phenomenon has been described as the Dunning-Kruger Effect. In a more realistic view, this can simply be called: arrogance.

Now the Bible speaks of arrogance, as well as several subjects involving what it means to be human. All of them however are in the negative.
Proverbs 8:13: The fear of the Lord is to hate evil; pride and arrogance and the evil way and the froward mouth do I hate.
1 Samuel 2:3: Talk no more so exceeding proudly; let not arrogance come out of your mouth; for the Lord is a God of knowledge, and by Him actions are weighed.
Isiah 13:11: "And I will punish the world for their evil and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogance of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

The main nub of my thread will have to be this: WHY do the people in this subset of Christianity hold the view that they are authorities in subjects they know nothing about and will willingly display a shocking level of arrogance when their own holy book tells them that arrogance is something their God despise?

 

[Dave-W]

The main nub of my thread will have to be this: WHY do the people in this subset of Christianity hold the view that they are authorities in subjects they know nothing about and will willingly display a shocking level of arrogance when their own holy book tells them that arrogance is something their God despise?

A very astute observation. I will address the 2nd question here first as it is more simple: Why act arrogant when the Bible says to NOT be arrogant?

IMO it is because they are blind (for what ever reason) to their own arrogance and would be shocked if they actually could see it.

The other question about why they claim to be experts in matters they have no knowledge of is probably a bit more complex - but it is tied up in the same blindness. They are told from pulpits all over that the gospel message is so simple a baby can understand it and that is ALL they need to know for life and godliness. Then they are told that everything in the Bible is literally true. So if they grind their way thru the lifespans as given in the OT, they come up with a date of creation around 6000 years ago. Remember - everything has to be kept so simple a baby can grasp it.

So when you roll all those factors together and the fact that God is supernatural and can do anything including manipulating physics and time, you get the opinions you state. But where the arrogance comes in is just basic old fallen human nature that gravitates toward pride. Left unchecked (by the aforementioned blindness) it hardens into full blown arrogance.

At least that is how I see it.

And just to keep the record straight - I AM a young earth creationist.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

A very astute observation. I will address the 2nd question here first as it is more simple: Why act arrogant when the Bible says to NOT be arrogant?

IMO it is because they are blind (for what ever reason) to their own arrogance and would be shocked if they actually could see it.

The other question about why they claim to be experts in matters they have no knowledge of is probably a bit more complex - but it is tied up in the same blindness. They are told from pulpits all over that the gospel message is so simple a baby can understand it and that is ALL they need to know for life and godliness. Then they are told that everything in the Bible is literally true. So if they grind their way thru the lifespans as given in the OT, they come up with a date of creation around 6000 years ago. Remember - everything has to be kept so simple a baby can grasp it.

So when you roll all those factors together and the fact that God is supernatural and can do anything including manipulating physics and time, you get the opinions you state. But where the arrogance comes in is just basic old fallen human nature that gravitates toward pride. Left unchecked (by the aforementioned blindness) it hardens into full blown arrogance.

At least that is how I see it.

And just to keep the record straight - I AM a young earth creationist.

I cannot fault your logic regarding the second question, especially since the first question requires a bit more of personal searching (that is probably not the correct word to use, but I hope my meaning comes across). And while your view of arrogance growing from pride because of 'fallen' human nature can ruffle some feathers among your fellow Christians, I can't fault you for holding that view.

And I think the logic of being talked to as a child has some merit, as well as you holding a Young Earth Creationist view, but that's probably for another thread since I want to keep this thread on-topic. I've seen too many threads be closed for going horribly off topic.

 

[Dave-W]

I've seen too many threads be closed for going horribly off topic.

Indeed.

 

[seekingsolace]

I suspect an IP check would show the falsity of our 'new member'.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

I suspect an IP check would show the falsity of our 'new member'.

I beg your pardon? I have literally joined today.

 

[Dave-W]

I beg your pardon? I have literally joined today.

I think that is an accusation of being a troll who has been on the site under other names and gotten themselves banned. Hence the call for the IP addy. But that can be falsified fairly easily if you know what you are doing. I am sure I have 2 sons-in-law that could do it easily.

We have had trouble with several individuals like that.

FWIW, I do not believe you are a troll. Your OP seemed genuine.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

I think that is an accusation of being a troll who has been on the site under other names and gotten themselves banned. Hence the call for the IP addy. But that can be falsified fairly easily if you know what you are doing. I am sure I have 2 sons-in-law that could do it easily.

We have had trouble with several individuals like that.

FWIW, I do not believe you are a troll. Your OP seemed genuine.

Oh, I think I know who you're referring to. Someone called Consol, correct? I've seen his rhetoric before. Not something I'm capable of.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

Timothy 6:20-21
O Timothy, guard the deposit entrusted to you. Avoid the irreverent babble and contradictions of what is falsely called “knowledge,” for by professing it some have swerved from the faith. Grace be with you.

What's ridiculous about the argument in this thread is that there is a utilization of the teachings on humbleness to try and propose Christians should essentially sit down, shut up, and let what they believe to be untrue reign.
This is something extremely irritating to me, as it is nothing more then rank manipulation. And the hypocrisy brims, as well. I don't see anything but supreme arrogance by unbelievers. The nerve of many of them are pretty astounding actually.

 

[Haasrecht]

I read your post. I am afraid I am slightly missing the point. Surely haughty dismissal of topics of which one knows little about is not unique to the people you are describing? You seem to imply that this is somehow uniquely their problem. I think I am missing something.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Timothy 6:20-21
O Timothy, guard the deposit entrusted to you. Avoid the irreverent babble and contradictions of what is falsely called “knowledge,” for by professing it some have swerved from the faith. Grace be with you.

What's ridiculous about the argument in this thread is that there is a utilization of the teachings on humbleness to try and propose Christians should essentially sit down, shut up, and let everyone have their way.
This is something extremely irritating to me, and atheists/unbelievers will pull this out of the hat like the great manipulators many of them have proven to be.

I am not against Christians debating scientists on certain subjects or having debates with people who are knowledgeable about science, as long as they themselves are knowledgeable about science themselves. It is a give and take.
You will never find a scientist say that they know everything about their subject, but many of the Christians of the fringe groups who adamantly believe that Genesis is literal truth do not know about the science they are arguing against but still believe they are solely in the right, and that is arrogance to me.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

I read your post. I am afraid I am slightly missing the point. Surely haughty dismissal of topics of which one knows little about is not unique to the people you are describing? You seem to imply that this is somehow uniquely their problem. I think I am missing something.

I will agree that many people on the atheist side of the argument do pull the same thing with regards to the Bible and religion, but other than that I'm not sure what you're missing either. So I might be missing something about your post on my end, too. hehe.

 

[bhsmte]

I beg your pardon? I have literally joined today.

That didn't take long, did it?

Welcome to CF!

 

[lupusFati]

This is something extremely irritating to me, as it is nothing more then rank manipulation. And the hypocrisy brims, as well. I don't see anything but supreme arrogance by unbelievers. The nerve of many of them are pretty astounding actually.

Perhaps because we're tired of having your views forced on us in the political, economical, and social stages of our lives? As well as in our childhood, our teen years, adult years, media, internet, music, etc. etc. ad nauseum. I mean, seriously, it's even on our money - "In GOD We Trust"? Nevermind the pledge of allegiance...

This is especially frustrating to us when Christians say "don't do this" or "don't do that" and then, in that same breath, do those things - or worse. And then aren't held accountable to their actions or judged as harshly as non-believers would be.

So, don't talk to me about nerve. Clean your own house first. After all, as non-believers, we're supposed to "not know any better" since we're "lost". So what's the Christians' excuse for hypocrisy?

Note, I am not insulting Christianity at all here. I am just being 100% honest and open about this, as well as posing an actual question. Though with the internet being how it is I can understand how this might be misunderstood.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

Perhaps because we're tired of having your views forced on us in the political, economical, and social stages of our lives? As well as in our childhood, our teen years, adult years, media, internet, music, etc. etc. ad nauseum. I mean, seriously, it's even on our money - "In GOD We Trust"? Nevermind the pledge of allegiance...

Are you aware that from ancient Rome all the way to America- the past 1700 years- the entire history of the West and all of your ancestors- by all old, sacred tradition and cultural affinity is Christian?
Just tell tell me if you are aware of that, please, so I can understand this alleged 'ad naseum' on account of Christianity being everywhere.

This is perhaps the most ridiculous part of atheism at large. You all act like you were born into something alien or punishing to your eyes and ears. Welcome to reality- you were not.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Perhaps because we're tired of having your views forced on us in the political, economical, and social stages of our lives? As well as in our childhood, our teen years, adult years, media, internet, music, etc. etc. ad nauseum. I mean, seriously, it's even on our money - "In GOD We Trust"? Nevermind the pledge of allegiance...

This is especially frustrating to us when Christians say "don't do this" or "don't do that" and then, in that same breath, do those things - or worse. And then aren't held accountable to their actions or judged as harshly as non-believers would be.

So, don't talk to me about nerve. Clean your own house first. After all, as non-believers, we're supposed to "not know any better" since we're "lost". So what's the Christians' excuse for hypocrisy?

Note, I am not insulting Christianity at all here. I am just being 100% honest and open about this, as well as posing an actual question. Though with the internet being how it is I can understand how this might be misunderstood.

Are you aware that from ancient Rome all the way to America- the past 1700 years- the entire history of the West and all of your ancestors- by all old, sacred tradition and cultural affinity is Christian?
Just tell tell me if you are aware of that, please, so I can understand this alleged 'ad naseum' on account of Christianity being everywhere.

This is perhaps the most ridiculous part of atheism at large. You all act like you were born into something alien or punishing to your eyes and ears. Welcome to reality- you were not.

Okay, I'm going to step in now: this is not what the OP was about. This is not a thread on whether or not... whatever the heck you two are talking about.
Crowns&Laurels, you are misconstruing what I am talking about. I did not start this thread for any sort of attack on Christianity. The issue is in the thread title.
Please, try and get back on topic. This is my first thread on this site, and I would like it to get past at least one page before it has to get closed for going off topic.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

Okay, I'm going to step in now: this is not what the OP was about. This is not a thread on whether or not... whatever the heck you two are talking about.
Crowns&Laurels, you are misconstruing what I am talking about. I did not start this thread for any sort of attack on Christianity. The issue is in the thread title.
Please, try and get back on topic. This is my first thread on this site, and I would like it to get past at least one page before it has to get closed for going off topic.

It'd be different if you identified as Christian, but your faith clearly states 'deist' and this thread is about Christians being arrogant with the literal interpretation of scripture. Moreover, you just defended a 'pagan' who has had all the anti-theist things to say on this thread which just reinforces what I'm thinking.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

It'd be different if you identified as Christian, but your faith clearly states 'deist' and this thread is about Christians being arrogant with the literal interpretation of scripture. Moreover, you just defended a 'pagan' who has had all the anti-theist things to say on this thread which just reinforces what I'm thinking.

I mentioned Christians because they are the majority, if not the only one's who show a horrifying display of arrogance towards science.
And would it really be different if I was a Christian? Probably not, since I'd probably not be your flavour of Christian. And the other guy's a pagan. So what? That's their religious choice.

And what are you thinking? Please tell me, since I am not a mind reader.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

I mentioned Christians because they are the majority, if not the only one's who show a horrifying display of arrogance towards science.
And would it really be different if I was a Christian? Probably not, since I'd probably not be your flavour of Christian. And the other guy's a pagan. So what? That's their religious choice.

And what are you thinking? Please tell me, since I am not a mind reader.

I wouldn't care if they were pagan or atheist, the point is that just by you going right over their anti-Christian statements and right to me just tells me that this thread is just meant to scrutinize and, even if it's in a nice way, call Christians ignorant.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

I wouldn't care if they were pagan or atheist, the point is that just by you going right over their anti-Christian statements and right to me just tells me that this thread is just meant to scrutinize and, even if it's in a nice way, call Christians ignorant.

I targeted you because you responded first by saying that this thread was inherently anti-Christian by calling it hypocritical that 'unbelievers' should tell Christians (obviously in your post you mean ALL Christians) to 'sit down, shut up and let what they believe to be untrue reign'. That is sooo far from what I am talking about in the OP.
I was trying to be civil on a topic that I feel does need to be discussed, then you replied that you 'don't see anything but supreme arrogance from unbelievers'.