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Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by shaheem white, Oct 21, 2017.

  1. shaheem white

    shaheem white Greetings in the Matchless Name Of Jesus!!!!!!

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    As a Man of God I wanna apologize for not being clear in one of my posts. Some of you understood where I was coming from but some didn't and that's why I'm addressing it again because I want us all to be on the same page. I am a humble Man and If i'm wrong I will admit it. I was not wrong in what I posted but I was not as clear as I should have been. I posted that as a Born again Christian we are forgiven by the Blood of Christ and we do not have to keep asking God everyday for forgiveness because He has already forgiven us. Now I left it there, which is what caused the misunderstanding. And again I am sorry. I was referring to "Positional Forgiveness" The scripture that was referenced by another brother was 1 john 1:9. So let me say this. What this verse tells us to do is confess our sins to God. The word confess means to agree with. When we confess our sins to God, we are agreeing with God that we were wrong, that we have sinned. what John is describing here is “relational” forgiveness, I was speaking of positional forgiveness. All of our sins are forgiven “positionally” the moment we receive Christ as Savior. This positional forgiveness guarantees our salvation and promise of an eternal home in heaven. When we stand before God after death, God will not deny us entrance into heaven because of our sins. That is positional forgiveness. The concept of relational forgiveness is based on the fact that when we sin, we offend God and grieve His Spirit (Ephesians 4:30). While God has ultimately forgiven us of the sins we commit, they still result in a blocking or hindrance in our relationship with God. I'll give you this example, A young boy who sins against his father is not cast out of the family. A godly father will forgive his children unconditionally. At the same time, a good relationship between father and son cannot be achieved until the relationship is restored. This can only occur when a child confesses his mistakes to his father and apologizes. That is why we confess our sins to God—not to maintain our salvation, but to bring ourselves back into close fellowship with the God who loves us and has already forgiven us. I pray that this clears things up.... Again I am sorry saints
     
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  2. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    No worries :)
    .
    I appreciate the distinction. Hope you have a good day.
     
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  3. shaheem white

    shaheem white Greetings in the Matchless Name Of Jesus!!!!!!

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    Good Bless
     
  4. Dawnhammer

    Dawnhammer Well-Known Member

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    God would surely forgive you the use of paragraphs as well.
     
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  5. shaheem white

    shaheem white Greetings in the Matchless Name Of Jesus!!!!!!

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    One thing i have learned in life and in reading the Word of God is that no matter what there will always be someone that doesn't agree and that's perfectly fine. But i will not in any way speak foul or hurtful to anyone. I operate in the spirit of Love and I pray that God continues to shower you with love and favor even at our disagreement. God Bless you
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2017
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  6. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Good day brother Shaheem! Perhaps going back to the other thread to clarify will allow people to respond here instead of over there.

    Thank you for the clarification.
     
  7. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    I think the poster was joking. Your post shows up with no paragraphs. I'm not picky. I understood what you communicated and it showed maturity, humility and kindness.
     
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  8. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Simul Justus et Peccator Supporter

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    Hi Shaheem, thanks for the clarification, although I suspected that's what you meant all along. Unfortunately, there's a small group here that believes 1. that all of their sins are already forgiven and/or 2. that a born again believer cannot sin again, period (all Biblical and living evidence to the contrary).

    I agree with RedLegHunter, it would probably be a good idea to make this clarification in your original thread if you have the time to!

    Yours and His,
    David
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2017
  9. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate your thoughts.

    Christians are forgiven people, period. There are many reasons to turn from sin and live uprightly. There are many reasons to admit our wrongdoing, to regret sin. But getting more forgiveness is not one of those reasons. Jesus already gave us all the forgiveness we will ever need.

    Also, remember, salvation is not a matter of believers trying to confess and repent from every sin they commit before they die. Salvation is not based on whether a Christian has confessed and repented of every sin. Yes, we should confess our sins to God as soon as we are aware that we have sinned.

    What we are to do is confess our sins: 1 John 1:9..........
    “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness” .

    At the same time, 1 John 1:9 does indicate that somehow forgiveness is dependent on our confessing our sins to God. How does this work if all of our sins are forgiven the moment we receive Christ as Savior? It seems that what the apostle John is describing here is “relational” forgiveness. All of our sins are forgiven “positionally” the moment we receive Christ as Savior. This positional forgiveness guarantees our salvation and promise of an eternal home in heaven. When we stand before God after death, God will not deny us entrance into heaven because of our sins. That is positional forgiveness.

    The concept of relational forgiveness is based on the fact that when we sin, we offend God and grieve His Spirit (Ephesians 4:30). While God has ultimately forgiven us of the sins we commit, they still result in a blocking or hindrance in our relationship with God. A young boy who sins against his father is not cast out of the family. A godly father will forgive his children unconditionally. At the same time, a good relationship between father and son cannot be achieved until the relationship is restored. This can only occur when a child confesses his mistakes to his father and apologizes. That is why we confess our sins to God—not to maintain our salvation, but to bring ourselves back into close fellowship with the God who loves us and has already forgiven us.
     
  10. Goatee

    Goatee Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

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    "confess" in English
    See all translations
    confessverb [ I or T ]
    UK /kənˈfes/ US /kənˈfes/
    admit that you have done something wrong or something that youfeel guilty or bad about:

    [ + that ] She confessed to her husband that she had sold her wedding ring.
    He confessed to sleeping/having slept through most of the movie.
    He has confessed to the murder.
    [ + (that) ] I have to confess (that) when I first met Reece I didn't think he was very bright.
    It was all very confusing, I must confess.
    Christian religion, especially the Roman Catholic Church, to tell Godor a priest what you have done wrong so that you can be forgiven:

    to confess your sins
     
  11. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    On your big picture, I agree.
    On your points specific, I disagree.

    Noting there are other posters, who also have made "points specific", identifying sin, as wilful or unintentional. I see your "points specific" as similar.

    Sin is;

    1 John 3:
    [4] Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law:
    for sin is the transgression of the law.

    Deut 9
    [7] Remember, and forget not, how thou provokedst the LORD thy God to wrath in the wilderness: from the day that thou didst depart out of the land of Egypt, until ye came unto this place, ye have been rebellious against the LORD.

    Jesus summarizes what Sin is and isn't;

    Matt 12
    [30] He that is not with me is against me;

    I disagree that SIN is compartmentalized, or continues AFTER a man repents AND
    is forgiven, By God.

    I disagree that a man born of God, can ever again Sin, ie rebel Against God.

    1 John 3
    [9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  12. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    If a man CANNOT sin after he is forgiven would you please explain Romans 7:15-20 from noneother than the apostle Paul himself.....
    " For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me."
     
  13. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Your understanding of 1 John 3:9 is incorrect my friend.
    "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God."

    This passage must either mean that they who are born of God, that is, who are true Christians, do not sin habitually and characteristically, or that everyone who is a true Christian is absolutely perfect, and never commits any sin.

    If it can be used as referring to the doctrine of absolute perfection at all, it proves, not that Christians may be perfect, or that a “portion” of them are, but that all are. But who can maintain this? Who can believe that John meant to affirm this? Nothing can be clearer than that the passage has not this meaning, and that John did not teach a doctrine so contrary to the current strain of the Scriptures, and to fact; and if he did not teach this, then in this whole passage he refers to those who are habitually and characteristically righteous.

    My dear brother, if John meant that a Christian does not sin anymore, why are jails full of Christians?

    If Christians can not sin anymore why is the divorce rate now 52% among Christians.

    If Christians can not sin anymore, why are there 1.5 million abortions every year.

    Your theology is simply not Bible based and logical when compared to reality.
     
  14. shaheem white

    shaheem white Greetings in the Matchless Name Of Jesus!!!!!!

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    My brother thanks for your input. As to you agreeing or disagreeing thats perfectly fine. There many who do agree and some who don't, I still Love you none the less.. God Bless
     
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  15. GTW27

    GTW27 Junior Member

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    When we love, we forgive, as we have been forgiven. When we love, and we offend, we are quick to say I am sorry.
     
  16. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    You can conclude from Roman's 7 what Paul was speaking of, using himself a human example, like he does in much of his teaching.

    It is Paul, revealing a human's struggle -
    Between being spiritually made forgiven, dead in Christ, saved, born again, without sin;
    Yet still having a MIND that "thinks".
    Yet still having FLESH that "desires it's natural wants".

    Forgiven sin, does not disappear. Man's flesh is sinful, and is sentenced to death.
    Spiritually, man's flesh is forgiven.
    Spiritually, man's body is crucified.
    Spiritually, man's soul is restored, to everlasting life.
    Spiritually, man's spirit is quickened, to everlasting life.

    And that forgiven flesh body of sin, with it's carnal mind? Remains alive in it physical flesh, while spiritually dead, and justified to become changed to a glorious body.

    Paul is well aware the carnal mind is where the thoughts of a natural man, are formed.
    Paul is well aware the heart is where the thoughts of a spiritual man, are formed.
    A natural man, who is also spiritual, contends between the MIND and the HEARTS thoughts, as Scripture teaches.
    The Mind, concludes and acts on a mans desires;
    The Heart, concludes and acts on Gods desires;
    And The Law? The Law also comes into the mix; regarding, what is acceptable and not acceptable to God.

    Paul was at a threshold of what the Law WAS; as Paul was expertly aware and steeped.
    and what the LAW IS; as Paul came to know, according to Jesus.

    Paul was a Pharisee; a Jew; and a Roman; a natural man; a spiritual man.
    Jesus IS, the WAY.

    If you read Romans 7 carefully,
    Paul was struggling with his natural flesh desire and lust for a sexual encounter.

    Rom 7
    [8] But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

    Paul goes into more detail speaking of widowed women, in verses 1-8.
    Paul expounds between the old law, not knowing it, knowing it, and what Jesus presented.

    Paul goes into more detail speaking of the appearance of sin.

    Rom 7 [13] Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

    Rom 7 [20] Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

    The sin that dwelleth in Paul, is his Flesh Mind. And IF you recall, Paul's flesh body was forgiven it's sin. But yet our body's and flesh and mind still live. And yet our body's flesh is accounted dead, thus it is not what "PAUL does", spiritually, but rather, his natural flesh body does.

    If you review, Paul's consciousness, still considered, covetousness, of wanting another man's wife, which was not the case.

    If you review, other scriptures, of a spiritual man lying with a NON spiritual woman, was also to be of consideration.

    Jesus revealed Gods principle of law regarding God ~
    Matt 12 [30] He that is not with me is against me;

    When has the natural carnal mind of mankind been WITH God?

    Rom 8 [7] ...the carnal mind is enmity against God:

    What then; Does God forgive? All of mans sins.
    What then; Sin Disappears? No. Sin does not disappear, it is forgiven.
    What then; Is Paul's struggle? Continuing in the natural flesh, while being spiritual.
    Why is that a struggle?

    Because man is QUICK to declare his mindful thoughts, and mindful actions ...
    as that it might APPEAR sin.

    WHY? Because of the old law.

    By WHOM? The individual, and other men who may be aware of the actions...

    But - what did Jesus declare?

    Believe in God, Believe in Him, Trust God, Believe in His Works, Love the Lord with all your heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind and love your neighbour as thyself.

    Did Paul do these things? Yes, Paul did these things.

    Are these things, the principle, by which God determines a mans standing ~
    With Him or Against Him? Yes.

    Is a man in standing WITH God, capable of committing a sin?
    Not according to God, who teaches, a man in standing WITH God, is a man He has forgiven and reconciled to Him, and accounts the man, born of God, and a son of God.

    Can a man born of God sin? Not according to God.

    1 John 3
    [9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    But, but, but, what about that natural sinful flesh of a man and his carnal mind?

    What about it? Well, doesn't individuals and other men observing decide and account to them they are committing sin? Yes

    However since Sin is Against God, and only God can forgive men, and God Himself does His own forgiving of all sin, and His own restoring, His own reconciliations, His own accounting, has His own books, AND allows man to continue living in His flesh.......
    Why is what men account, an issue to be considered? It isn't!

    Rom 7 [22] For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

    Rom 7 [25] I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

    Paul was human, and satisfied his natural flesh that is sin, while also being spiritually forgiven and kept unto God.

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  17. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    1 John 3:9 is quite clear, without introducing excuses for not understanding.

    "do not sin habitually"
    "do not sin characteristically"

    Why introduce such things? Those things are not in scripture. The Scripture clearly states;

    1 John 3:9
    [9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    You are the one attempting to CHANGE what the scripture says and means, then attempt to justify the CHANGING, by accusing me of being WRONG to TRUST what the Scripture CLEARLY says.

    No friend - Scripture is Correct. I am correct to Trust what the Scripture says.

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  18. shaheem white

    shaheem white Greetings in the Matchless Name Of Jesus!!!!!!

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    If that's how you feel it's perfectly fine. Just pls don't be rude or disrespectful in your disagreement. God Bless you
     
  19. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    Certainly. I fully comprehend one path, yet all on that one path, are at varying distances on that one path.

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  20. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    I do not find it rude or disrespectful to speak the truth.
    If you find
    me not agreeing with another who had bluntly said I was wrong, and I provided scripture to the contrary of their charge and my reasoning for disagreement with them: AS rude or disrespectful, it is of no problem for me to not post on your self-monitored, threads.

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
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