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Atheists do not deny a God exists.

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by anffyddwyr, Jul 23, 2007.

  1. Tomk80

    Tomk80 Titleless

    +384
    Agnostic
    So, I do not believe in God, although I am not in and of itself against belief in God. How would KCAD describe me than, other than with the word atheist?
     
  2. Loudmouth

    Loudmouth Contributor

    +5,953
    Agnostic
    Your mind is not an instrument. In fact, instruments are the very thing humans create in order to get away from the mind. The mind is only able to produce subjective information. Instruments are capable of producing objective information. Big difference.

    If I said that there was an invisible dragon living in my garage would you accept the same answer you gave me?
     
  3. Smilin

    Smilin Spirit of the Wolf

    +242
    Atheist
    Married
    /me has nothing to add to the discussion....

    hmmmpppphhh......

    What's for lunch anyone?

    Balonie sammich? :lol:
     
  4. Loudmouth

    Loudmouth Contributor

    +5,953
    Agnostic
    I say we take a page from KCDAD's playbook and totally redefine the argument. I am skeptical of the existence of gods. People who believe in gods are not skeptical at all. Therefore, I am a skeptic and those who believe in gods are askeptics.
     
  5. thaumaturgy

    thaumaturgy Well-Known Member

    +858
    Atheist
    Married
    I actually agree with you on this. I have no doubt that many evil people use religion to gain advantage among those who get all warm and fuzzy any time they hear the name of God invoked in the service of anything. Regardless of the evil person's personal beliefs.

    I would be willing to agree that Hitler was ambiguous as to his religious thought despite his many invokations of Christianity in speeches and writings.

    I was merely bringing this up because, as you point out in Point #1 of your post antisemitism was quite well established by the christian church long before Hitler came around. It was an easy fit for whomever wanted to use religion to further that particular evil.

    KCDAD seems to spout as if history bore out his point that social darwinism was somehow purely methodological naturalism and therefore the only bulwark against such excesses of evil is the belief in some higher morality. Clearly such is not the case.
     
  6. KCDAD

    KCDAD Well-Known Member

    +343
    Methodist
    Married
    US-Republican
    Semantics... it is the same thing...
     
  7. KCDAD

    KCDAD Well-Known Member

    +343
    Methodist
    Married
    US-Republican
    That is something you need to substantiate. How can there be a superior race, without any mention of race in The Bible? Race, as a concept, did not exist until 17th century. It was not applied to anything other than slavery until Herbert Spencer and the Social Biologists of the 19th century.
    Even if Hitler invoked Christianity as a reason for Aryan supremacy, much has been done in the name of religion, politics, culture, race and more importantly nationalism, that were nothing more than economically motivated grabs for power. The motivational factor is incidental to the real cause.
     
  8. KCDAD

    KCDAD Well-Known Member

    +343
    Methodist
    Married
    US-Republican

    That would send Darwin spinning... the fit DO survive... in nature. Man has corrupted and effectively halted the human evolution process by eliminating natural selection. If you want the human race to "be all it can be" you should be advocating some kind of eugenics, or at the very least, and end to all charity, medical assistance and education provided by organizations outside the conjugal family.
     
  9. tanzanos

    tanzanos Guest

    +0
    How about God's chosen people: the Israelites. Does this not qualify as racial prejudice on God's behalf? And if it is so then the Israelites are superior to all other races.

    I insist there is no god except the one that resides in human imagination:scratch:.
     
  10. KCDAD

    KCDAD Well-Known Member

    +343
    Methodist
    Married
    US-Republican
    Not 100% correct, but not wrong either. The man describing the elephant's tail is just as right as the guy describing the elephant's trunk.
     
  11. KCDAD

    KCDAD Well-Known Member

    +343
    Methodist
    Married
    US-Republican
    Neither of quotes have ANYTHING to do with Christianity... mainstream, liberal, orthodox, protestant or Catholic... they are the rantings of a lunatic. Just because he says "Christian" doesn't make him any more than the someone who says the word "scientist".
     
  12. KCDAD

    KCDAD Well-Known Member

    +343
    Methodist
    Married
    US-Republican
    Hitler did not believe in a higher power..and he hated the church.
    He appealed to a very religious Catholic population by changing the perception of Jews from just "outsiders" to an inferior and viral race destroying Germany.

    This idea of Jews killing Jesus was as widespread as the KKK was in the Northern United States from 1870 -1964... not very... but where it was, it had a very strong influence on culture and attitudes.

    My word, people... every Christian knows Jesus, John the Baptist, Mother Mary, Paul and the disciples were all Jews.

    Revisionist history is fascinating, but not very suitable for understanding humanity.
     
  13. KCDAD

    KCDAD Well-Known Member

    +343
    Methodist
    Married
    US-Republican
    Everyone is God's chosen people... the Jews were writing THEIR history... so to them they were the chosen. In horticultural and pastoral societies, and agrarian societies as towns and cities developed, people thought of god or gods as localized... their god. Their town's god vs some other town's god... Each felt selected or chosen by their god.
     
  14. FishFace

    FishFace Senior Veteran

    +165
    Atheist
    You imply I agree with social darwinism. I don't.
     
  15. FishFace

    FishFace Senior Veteran

    +165
    Atheist
    Not if he describes the elephant tail as the entire elephant, and not if, by some feature of the elephant, and elephant could not simultaneously possess a tail and a trunk.

    As we have discussed, a God cannot simultaneously be personal and be "order out of chaos." They're incompatible.
     
  16. FishFace

    FishFace Senior Veteran

    +165
    Atheist
    I take it you haven't read anything he wrote, then.

    As you've been told, the Jews have been persecuted for ages - since medieval times at least.
     
  17. Tomk80

    Tomk80 Titleless

    +384
    Agnostic
    Hitler did believe in a higher power. That is definitely what his writings indicate.

    In Germany, yes. But in Eastern Europe the view on jewish was more than just "outcast". If you look at jewish history, you'll see that in Poland jewish were treated as third-rate citizens and often persecuted. Hitler drew his inspiration from this.

    Than why do you do it? The KKK is a christian organisation. The views on jews were inspired by the treatment of jews by christians. Jewish persecution has a long-standing tradition in European tradition and has always been supported, if not promoted, by the church institutions. This may be uncomfortable, you may claim it was not "real christians (tm)" that did it, but that is what happened.
     
  18. thaumaturgy

    thaumaturgy Well-Known Member

    +858
    Atheist
    Married

    Boy KCDAD, you really need to re-read your history. Ever hear of the Pogroms in Russia near the turn of the 19th-20th century? Hmmm?

    Try this resource:
    "Although the term anti-Semitism was coined in 1879, anti-Jewish agitation has existed for several thousand years."

    "Jews were massacred in great numbers, especially during the Crusades; segregated in ghettos; required to wear identifying marks or garments; and economically crippled by the imposition of restrictions on the business activities open to them. "

    "Impediments imposed on Jews since the Middle Ages became increasingly severe. In Russia, measures were adopted to prevent Jews from owning land and to limit the number of Jews admitted to institutions of higher education to 3 to 10 percent of the total enrollment in those institutions."

    Or this source:
    "The term pogrom refers to the Russian government, who advocated and even financed large massacres of Jews. In the pogroms, officials would roam the streets destroying Jewish-owned property and even beating Jews. Some of these pogroms were meant to entice Jews to convert to Christianity."

    This isn't even mentioning the Passion Plays thought to spur a lot of antisemitism in Europe!

    Revisionist history, indeed.

    Oh, and by-the-by, how do you KNOW Hitler "hated the church"? Was it from his numerous pro-Christian commentaries? What data do you have for your claim?

    Certainly the Church didn't hate Hitler!

    [​IMG]
    Photo of
    Hitler wth Archbishop Cesare Orsenigo, the papal nuncio in Berlin, 1935 [SIZE=-1]On April 20, 1939, Archbishop Orsenigo celebrated Hitler's birthday. The celebrations, initiated by Pacelli (Pope Pius XII) became a tradition. Each April 20, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin was to send "warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops and the dioceses in Germany" and added with "fervent prayers which the Catholics of Germany are sending to heaven on their altars."[/SIZE]

    Please, when arguing history with people, make sure they don't have access to outside information next time.
     
  19. KCDAD

    KCDAD Well-Known Member

    +343
    Methodist
    Married
    US-Republican
    An elephant can't be a rope and a snake at the same time either... or a leaf and tree trunk, a spear and a mountain... that is the gist of the story.
     
  20. Tomk80

    Tomk80 Titleless

    +384
    Agnostic
    Well, Hitler certainly had no specific liking for "the church" as such. From what I read, he saw different churches as dividing the people. The Hitler jugend had a song which (translated) went:


    Certainly in his private conversations he wasn't particularly kind to christianity:


    From what I can tell, Hitler had his own kind of paganism that he stuck to. He definitely believed in providence and a higher God-like power. But although a lot of his ideas came from christianity, when reading his private statements he doesn't exactly come of as a christian.
     
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