Atheist United Church Minister got to keep her job

[Radagast]

two separate issues - theology and employment. court likely ruled on employment, without looking ta theolgy. employment contract likely should have specified theolgy, which would have allowed the court to consider her atheism, and make a decision in the church's favor.

There was no government court involved here, and nobody ruled on employment. There was going to be a church "court," but in the end there was a private agreement.

 

[Radagast]

I wasn't there, but from what I can see, this appears to be a failure of the COM.

Actually, with Shuck, I suspect they got exactly what they wanted.

 

[grandvizier1006]

I would be much more comfortable with her simply splitting off with her congregation. This is what Christian denominations do all the time due to disagreements. But for her to insist on staying with a certain group while not believing in their beliefs at all is logically impossible. She calls herself an atheist, but I assume she believes in something like deism. She could make her own religion or philosophy off of that or join others who believe in such. That would be perfectly valid in a free country even though I wouldn't agree with it. But it seems like she's been doing this for years. What especially bothered me about the interview was that she didn't understand why it was a problem for her to be a minister. I feel like she is being unintentionally selfish in that she is thinking of herself and her love of the institution. As a minister it's her responsibility to feed her flock, her congregation. She can't do that as someone who literally doesn't believe in what the church teaches and believes.

 

[Radagast]

She calls herself an atheist, but I assume she believes in something like deism.

No, she quite literally is an atheist. Possibly "humanist" might be an accurate label also.

As a minister it's her responsibility to feed her flock, her congregation.

Her flock at West Hill United Church loves her. Many of them are also atheists. Their statement of faith says "... we embrace theists, agnostics and atheists. What we share is a reverence for life that moves us to seek truth, live fully, care deeply, pursue justice and make a difference in the world." There is no mention in their statement of faith of God or Jesus.

And the UCC is a very broad church. Broad enough to include atheists, apparently.

 

[hedrick]

She calls herself an atheist, but I assume she believes in something like deism.

I understand what you're suggesting. Some people have talked about a non-theist concept of God, rejecting many traditional attributes of God, but still thinking there's something out there beyond the physical universe. Not necessarily deist, though that's one model.

But I checked statements by her and Shuck pretty carefully, and they seem to be actual atheists.

I'm willing to accept a range of ideas about God. In some ways I like the Eastern idea that we can't understand God's nature, and can mostly just say negative things about him. But to me whatever you may think of his nature, he spoke through the prophets, and Jesus showed him to us.

I acknowledge that there are people who admire (some of) Jesus' teachings, and think of themselves as his followers, while still being agnostic or atheist. I even see how they can think of themselves as Christian. But I don't think that's a direction the PCUSA wants to go, and my impression is that at the national level the UCC wouldn't either.

I'd rather see that approach pursued by the U-U.

 

[grandvizier1006]

I understand what you're suggesting. Some people have talked about a non-theist concept of God, rejecting many traditional attributes of God, but still thinking there's something out there beyond the physical universe. Not necessarily deist, though that's one model.

But I checked statements by her and Shuck pretty carefully, and they seem to be actual atheists.

I'm willing to accept a range of ideas about God. In some ways I like the Eastern idea that we can't understand God's nature, and can mostly just say negative things about him. But to me whatever you may think of his nature, he spoke through the prophets, and Jesus showed him to us.

I acknowledge that there are people who admire (some of) Jesus' teachings, and think of themselves as his followers, while still being agnostic or atheist. I even see how they can think of themselves as Christian. But I don't think that's a direction the PCUSA wants to go, and my impression is that at the national level the UCC wouldn't either.

I'd rather see that approach pursued by the U-U.

Do you mean Eastern as in the Orthodox church or Eastern as in Eastern religions? God may be mysterious to us, but He's not entirely unknown. We just can't fully grasp Him as finite mortals. I think that someone can't be an atheist and leading a congregation of people who are ostensibly Christians at the same time. Her congregation should change what they call themselves. It's confusing to have a "Church of Christ" that believes Christ was a metaphor or vague, abstract concept that never became a human or never resurrected. If I understand this woman correctly, she doesn't believe in Christ's resurrection, which is the most important belief in Christianity by far.

 

[hedrick]

Eastern Orthodox. I didn’t say nothing can be known about him. It would be better if one of them explained their position.

From an OT perspective, God is always the God of Abraham, Isaac, etc, or the agod who bought us out of Egypt. I.e he is known by his actions, though of course there are some statements about him as well. For Christians we know him through Jesus.

 

[Radagast]

Really, all this is beyond parody. Apparently, in preference to reading from the Bible in church, Gretta Vosper reads from Charles Dickens and Buffy the Vampire Slayer scripts.

 

[grandvizier1006]

Really, all this is beyond parody. Apparently, in preference to reading from the Bible in church, Gretta Vosper reads from Charles Dickens and Buffy the Vampire Slayer scripts.

Are you serious? source?

 

[Radagast]

Are you serious? source?

Interview in 2016: Why a Christian minister turned on God but wants to remain in the Church

I would never be able to make this stuff up.

 

[Radagast]

If I understand this woman correctly, she doesn't believe in Christ's resurrection, which is the most important belief in Christianity by far.

That's probably quite normal in the UCC. This woman goes much further: she's an atheist. She literally does not believe in any kind of God/god at all. See her website here.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Is it just me or does it make no sense at all? I think I can understand the court and settlement decision in terms of employer employee relationship, but I am not understanding her theology whatsoever. Am I missing something?

Atheist United Church minister to keep her job at Toronto congregation

No, you aren't wrong. This is just whacked. How dare she stand in the pulpit! Who cares about the employer-employee aspect? You don't believe in GOD, well, you don't dare to stand in the pulpit and minister in His name. Because this isn't just a job....though there are definitely a whole lot of hirelings doing it, as scripture points out in John 10. She can't enter another way and she certainly can't lead others.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber. 2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 yA stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 This figure of speech Jesus zused with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them.

7 So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

I shouldn't have to believe in "medicine" to be a doctor. It's enough for me to appreciate what doctors who did believe in "medicine" have done for me in the past to secure a position in the field.

That's totally different. A doctor is not speaking for God. He's just doing his job.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

As a fellow Canadian I can tell you that the United Church is an utter joke. They don't even seem to have any actual theology beyond "we accept gay people because the other bigoted churches won't".

That has become a whole religion unto itself.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

We have people like that...they're called homeopaths and chiropractors lol.
(minus the appreciating what real doctors do, of course)

Medicine is a little broader than you think. Allopathic medicine is not all there is and even it recognizes this, though mainly for purposes of monetizing whatever it can. If you know scripture, God gave us the herbs and leaves for healing.

In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. Rev.22:2

And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine. Ezekiel 47:12


Drug companies know this, so they try to co-opt something that works, make this easily available substance into their "patented" pharma drug and sell it for big bucks. Lovaza comes to mind. Fish oil you can buy at health food stores for $20 for say, 200.

But Glaxo Smith Kline is happy to co-opt it, and sell it to you for $2.00 a pill.

 

[hedrick]

Are you serious? source?

I’ve checked this out. He’s right. She also alters Scripture readings if she doesn’t like them. But it’s best to consider her a secular humanist, not a Christian. So this kind of stuff isn’t a surprise.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

If you know scripture, God gave us the herbs and leaves for healing.

Which has no correlation to either of the pseudosciences I provided (chiropractic and homeopathy)

Mainstream medicine having certain issues doesn't give some sort of intrinsic validation to alternatives by default.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

At least the false teachers we were warned about are up-front about it here.

 

[dysert]

My own denomination has a similar situation. We have an atheist pastor.

I'm curious. Does your denomination preach/teach the Bible? If so, how does an atheist preach/teach from a source that they themselves don't believe in?

 

[hedrick]

I'm curious. Does your denomination preach/teach the Bible? If so, how does an atheist preach/teach from a source that they themselves don't believe in?

In my opinion Shuck is in violation of his ordination vows, so don't expect me to defend him.

Here's his statement of why he thinks he's Christian: I’m a Presbyterian Minister Who Doesn’t Believe in God. Scripture would be a major component of the Christian culture.