Atheist’s thoughts on church!

[ChristopherHays]

Hey, I’m an atheist and I went to church this week with family... just wanted to share my first impression as an outsider. Overall it was a TERRIBLE experience.

First, the greeters and parking directors were very polite but they all just kept saying “good morning” over and over... no one without a name tag said a single thing to me. No one knew it was my first time visiting because no one seemed to know or care to know anything about the people they were greeting. I’ve literally had better conversations with robots.

Worship was very well done, they had lasers, fog machines and brand name equipment. The lead singer was holding notes I know the audience couldn’t sing along with. I would’ve thought it was a professional concert venue.

Next there was a 15 minute offering mini sermon. They definitely were pushing the idea that you’re money belongs to god and you’re basically gonna miss out if you don’t give generously and cheerfully to the church. 15 minutes of what you should do with your money and 0 minutes about what they're doing with it. Where else in life would you donate money without knowing what it’s for?

The church campus was EXTREMELY nice. They had an airplane, gardens, waterfall, bookstore, coffee shop, etc. It was far larger and nicer than my college campus, which makes me wonder how much they’re spending???

The sermon was very well done. The guest preacher was apparently very famous over seas and he was funny and likable. The message was basically a commercial for his latest book and it actually ended with a real video commercial for his book... not surprisingly the books were available for purchase at the exit points afterwards.

As a struggling business owner, THESE GUYS KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING. I went to college for marketing & administration and this church is doing everything right. They sell tons of coffee in the morning, boost perceived value during the offering speech, up-sell you at the end, and funnel you into their cafe for lunch... all without paying taxes?!?!

A quick Yelp search revealed that they have free Christian counselors, but people were very unhappy when they arrived at appointments just to be turned away for not meeting the membership requirements. I don’t think a church would cancel counseling appointments if they really cared about the community. This seems like another strategy to keep their donating customers close to home.

my main takeaway was this church is all about the money. I wonder if Christians ever take a step back and look at the churches they’re attending. Does the pastor live in a beach house and have an airplane? Do you know where your donation money goes? Are church salaries hidden? Do they talk more about your money than theirs? Are their facilities appropriate for a “charitable” organization? Do they help people even if they don’t/won’t/can’t come to church? I’m very sad to see so many people contributing to this business. Hopefully your church isn’t like this... BUT PLEASE TAKE A MOMENT TO CHECK

 

[Paidiske]

Does the pastor live in a beach house and have an airplane? Do you know where your donation money goes? Are church salaries hidden? Do they talk more about your money than theirs? Are their facilities appropriate for a “charitable” organization? Do they help people even if they don’t/won’t/can’t come to church? I’m very sad to see so many people contributing to this business. Hopefully your church isn’t like this... BUT PLEASE TAKE A MOMENT TO CHECK

An airplane? Ha! Right now I'm struggling to come up with the money to get some necessary work done on my car. (And yes, we help people even if they don't/won't/can't come to church).

What you've come across sounds very much like the exception. Most churches are too small to have organisations that well-funded and well run. And most have rules around transparency with church budgets and so forth, too.

But that said, it's good for us to hear from people outside our own bubbles about how churches can come across and what impression we give out.

 

[coffee4u]

I'm glad to see you say

this church

because it very much is that church. Churches vary as much as people. I have never been to a church with lasers and fog machines. First heard of that on here. Probably more of an American thing and I am guessing it was a huge church? I've also never attended a church that has its own coffee shop, most churches give coffee for free or a gold coin donation ($1 and $2 gold-coloured coins are a thing here) since coffee, milk, sugar can add up.

My church is a small country church, currently preaching out of the book of Judges. one family makes morning tea, one family is on welcoming. We have a tiny car park in the front and another in the back.
We have someone on keyboard and someone on drums and sometimes guitar. Worship leader leads singing.
We have a children's talk
Communion which tends to include a mini-sermon of 5 minutes
Prayer
Plate giving which is just a prayer.
About 5 songs and hymes sprinkled through the service.
Sermon of about 20-30 minutes. Right now we are going through the book of Judges.
We have occasionally had special gusts and sometimes they do bring books etc with them. Maybe 2-3 times a year.
Minster lives in the manse next door. This is just a normal 3 bedroom weatherboard house. The church plate pays the minsters livelihood so that is important. Other money goes to the upkeep of the church, things needed in the kitchen, children's programs etc. Some money goes to overseas missionaries.
Our 'garden' is basically empty grass with a sandpit and a shed with outdoor toys and like most of the country yellow to dead grass, because drought is the norm out here. We do have 1 long garden bed with roses out the front though.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

I went to a Church like that once. Once.

Whole thing left me disgusted. A temple of Mammon. A court of the moneychangers.

That is no Church.

 

[public hermit]

You need to come to our church. We spend time talking before the service. Sometimes it's like herding cats to get all twenty five of us to sit down. The organ plays and people prayerfully prepare for worship. We recite a psalm, sing hymns, share a prayer of confession. The pastor's sermon is in depth and educated. We Presbyterians like for our preachers to know what they're talking about. We have a prayer time where we offer up joys and concerns for all to pray about. We also pass the plate. Like most other churches we have bills and also missions we're dedicated to.

But, the most important part is that one of the widows or elderly couples will be inviting you to eat Sunday dinner, and they won't take "No" for an answer. By the time you're finished eating the best southern cooking you've ever put in your mouth, they'll know who your family is, what your hopes and aspirations are, and if you're planning on getting married.

If you want to be loved, then come on.

 

[durangodawood]

....By the time you're finished eating the best southern cooking you've ever put in your mouth....

Hmm. I may have to become Christian.

 

[AvisG]

Hey, I’m an atheist and I went to church this week with family... just wanted to share my first impression as an outsider. Overall it was a TERRIBLE experience.

The contents of your post make me somewhat suspicious that you "went to church this week" with your family at all. I have a near-infallible BS Detector, and your post is sending it into the red zone. Perhaps give us the name and location of the church to add some context to your claim? (P.S. - why does your profile say "agnostic" but your post says "atheist"?)

But giving you the benefit of the doubt, so what? As a presumably critical-thinking atheist, you surely know that an impression formed as a one-time visitor to a church is scarcely a valid judgment upon the church and its mission. For that matter, if you're an atheist, why would we trust the accuracy of your observations? The fact that your post is so drooling with typical "atheisms" is part of what is sending my BS Detector into the red zone. You just happened to pick a church that exemplifies everything an atheist would like to believe about hypocritical Christians, eh?

I don't even go to church anymore, but I do know that church attendance is largely what you make of it. Church is primarily a house of worship, not a place to be entertained or to pass judgment on the failings of the pastor, the message, the facilities or the other people in the pews. Meaningful worship is possible even in the atmosphere you describe.

Nice try.

 

[ChristopherHays]

The contents of your post make me somewhat suspicious that you "went to church this week" with your family at all. I have a near-infallible BS Detector, and your post is sending it into the red zone. Perhaps give us the name and location of the church to add some context to your claim? (P.S. - why does your profile say "agnostic" but your post says "atheist"?)

But giving you the benefit of the doubt, so what? As a presumably critical-thinking atheist, you surely know that an impression formed as a one-time visitor to a church is scarcely a valid judgment upon the church and its mission. For that matter, if you're an atheist, why would we trust the accuracy of your observations? The fact that your post is so drooling with typical "atheisms" is part of what is sending my BS Detector into the red zone. You just happened to pick a church that exemplifies everything an atheist would like to believe about hypocritical Christians, eh?

I don't even go to church anymore, but I do know that church attendance is largely what you make of it. Church is primarily a house of worship, not a place to be entertained or to pass judgment on the failings of the pastor, the message, the facilities or the other people in the pews. Meaningful worship is possible even in the atmosphere you describe.

Nice try.

wow... I definitely went to church this week. I feel like you’re judging me pretty harshly without any real info. I’m honestly giving my first impression of the church. It is from an atheists perspective... that’s the point of the post. The church was Harvest in riverside CA. The guest speaker was J John. I parked toward the back of the lot near the airport. The greeters seated me on the far left of the lower level... your bs detector is quite fallible.

my page says agnostic because I am both agnostic and atheist. They’re not exclusive terms.

i said I was giving my first impression as a visitor. I’ll be glad to recant anything critical I said if I’m wrong... but first impressions are what they are. It’s important how you present yourself.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Hey, I’m an atheist and I went to church this week with family... just wanted to share my first impression as an outsider. Overall it was a TERRIBLE experience.

First, the greeters and parking directors were very polite but they all just kept saying “good morning” over and over... no one without a name tag said a single thing to me. No one knew it was my first time visiting because no one seemed to know or care to know anything about the people they were greeting. I’ve literally had better conversations with robots.

Worship was very well done, they had lasers, fog machines and brand name equipment. The lead singer was holding notes I know the audience couldn’t sing along with. I would’ve thought it was a professional concert venue.

Next there was a 15 minute offering mini sermon. They definitely were pushing the idea that you’re money belongs to god and you’re basically gonna miss out if you don’t give generously and cheerfully to the church. 15 minutes of what you should do with your money and 0 minutes about what they're doing with it. Where else in life would you donate money without knowing what it’s for?

The church campus was EXTREMELY nice. They had an airplane, gardens, waterfall, bookstore, coffee shop, etc. It was far larger and nicer than my college campus, which makes me wonder how much they’re spending???

The sermon was very well done. The guest preacher was apparently very famous over seas and he was funny and likable. The message was basically a commercial for his latest book and it actually ended with a real video commercial for his book... not surprisingly the books were available for purchase at the exit points afterwards.

As a struggling business owner, THESE GUYS KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING. I went to college for marketing & administration and this church is doing everything right. They sell tons of coffee in the morning, boost perceived value during the offering speech, up-sell you at the end, and funnel you into their cafe for lunch... all without paying taxes?!?!

A quick Yelp search revealed that they have free Christian counselors, but people were very unhappy when they arrived at appointments just to be turned away for not meeting the membership requirements. I don’t think a church would cancel counseling appointments if they really cared about the community. This seems like another strategy to keep their donating customers close to home.

my main takeaway was this church is all about the money. I wonder if Christians ever take a step back and look at the churches they’re attending. Does the pastor live in a beach house and have an airplane? Do you know where your donation money goes? Are church salaries hidden? Do they talk more about your money than theirs? Are their facilities appropriate for a “charitable” organization? Do they help people even if they don’t/won’t/can’t come to church? I’m very sad to see so many people contributing to this business. Hopefully your church isn’t like this... BUT PLEASE TAKE A MOMENT TO CHECK

Looks like you discovered a business masquerading as a church. There's a number of those out there these days.

Here's what you'd see if you visited my church. Mostly older people with greying hair first of all, generally friendly, but not everyone is comfortable introducing themselves. Some people are extroverted, others are introverted. Pastor's a pretty outgoing fellow, likes to smile and make people feel welcome. Since there's usually only around 15-20 people who show up on Sunday morning on average, it's not too difficult for him to try and greet everyone--regulars, irregulars, visitors, etc. Both before and after service with people gathered around the coffee pot.

Service follows the traditional Lutheran order of Mass (it's similar to a Catholic Mass for obvious reasons). The Liturgy is divided into two parts, the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Altar, between the two is the Peace. Historically this involved the "kiss of peace", but in the modern West this is just a handshake. It is a time to greet one another, to extend peace to each other. Again, everyone's different, some folks are outgoing, some folks are introverted. I'm a pretty introverted guy in most social situations, so I usually don't stray too far from my comfort zone.

There's no theatrics during the service. We have an organist and a small choir. Hymns are usually printed in that morning's order of worship which is handed out to everyone coming in through the front door, so there's no need to look up the hymn number in the hymnal.

During the Eucharist people are welcome to come forward (ushers move from pew to pew to keep things organized). If one, for whatever reason, for example they aren't a Baptized Christian, or out of personal conscience, may let those distributing the elements at the altar that they would prefer to receive a blessing instead of commune--no questions asked.

There is a collection plate passed around, very briefly. People are free to give or not give, there's no obligation; it's a no frills affair.

The morning bulletin, along with morning announcements, generally lists the sorts of things going on in the community, such as when the women's quilting club meets, or where and how to donate food for the food drives.

Our pastor doesn't own a beach house. He doesn't make a whole lot, and has to scrimp and save like the rest of us in order to afford food. The money that is collected goes to paying church staff (for many of whom this is their full time job), utilities, and land taxes. Money, along with fundraising money, goes to support outreach such as providing food and clothing to those in need. Money is also used to support groups like Lutheran World Relief.

Virtually none of this is unique to my church. This is really how most churches of different denominations and traditions operate.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[AvisG]

I feel like you’re judging me pretty harshly without any real info.

I'm not "judging" you. I'm "cross-examining" you (I'm a retired lawyer).

Ah, so you visited Harvest Christian Fellowship, Meet the Staff - Harvest Christian Fellowship. This is Greg Laurie's church and was recently in the news due to the unfortunate suicide of a young assistant pastor. I have heard many, many of Laurie's sermons (he is on daily on one of the Christian stations I listen to) and have found them consistently honest and uplifting even though I am quite cynical about mega-churches and high-profile ministries.

This is the speaker you found less than inspiring: Canon J. John.

I don't insist my BS Detector is as infallible as, say, the Pope, but even if it is in error I feel your post is simply a predictable atheist response to a church such as Greg Laurie's and tells us more about you than about the church.

 

[ChristopherHays]

I'm not "judging" you. I'm "cross-examining" you (I'm a retired lawyer).

Ah, so you visited Harvest Christian Fellowship, Meet the Staff - Harvest Christian Fellowship. This is Greg Laurie's church and was recently in the news due to the unfortunate suicide of a young assistant pastor. I have heard many, many of Laurie's sermons (he is on daily on one of the Christian stations I listen to) and have found them consistently honest and uplifting even though I am quite cynical about mega-churches and high-profile ministries.

This is the speaker you found less than inspiring: Canon J. John.

I don't insist my BS Detector is as infallible as, say, the Pope, but even if it is in error I feel your post is simply a predictable atheist response to a church such as Greg Laurie's and tells us more about you than about the church.

I actually said the sermon was well done and J John was funny and likable.

Again, I feel insulted that you assume I’m dishonest and have to “cross examine” me.

What exactly does my post say about me?

If anything I said was in error, feel free to point it out. I’ll apologize if I made any unfair judgments. I’d love to here that this church gives large portions of their money to the needy. I’d love to hear that counseling is given to every person who needs it. I’d love to hear that the pastor doesn’t have a beach house in an expensive neighborhood... I have great respect for many churches that help their communities and give generously to the worlds needy. What does this church do that I should respect? I don’t see them spending money on anything that doesn’t grow their business... maybe I’m wrong ‍

 

[durangodawood]

...If anything I said was in error, feel free to point it out.....

Seriously, the problem with your post was that it was too well thought out and written, to the point that it could be mistaken for a professional "attack piece" that was cut/pasted.

I recommend toning down the quality of your posts in the future.

 

[ChristopherHays]

It seems like most of your churches are small town community churches. I used to go to a church like this when I was a Christian. I always looked forward to weekly fellowship. All my best friends attended and we had Sunday afternoon bbq, game nights, etc. if I lived in the area I may still attend just for the community. The best thing about that church was the volunteers. My best friends dad was the pastor and he worked very hard during the week so he could use every cent of donation money on church and community needs. They were real people trying to do what’s right.

I didn’t get the same feeling this Sunday.

 

[ChristopherHays]

Seriously, the problem with your post was that it was too well thought out and written, to the point that it could be mistaken for a professional "attack piece" that was cut/pasted.

I recommend toning down the quality of your posts in the future.

Hahaha I’ll keep that in mind

 

[AvisG]

I actually said the sermon was well done and J John was funny and likable.

Again, I feel insulted that you assume I’m dishonest and have to “cross examine” me.

What exactly does my post say about me?

If anything I said was in error, feel free to point it out. I’ll apologize if I made any unfair judgments. I’d love to here that this church gives large portions of their money to the needy. I’d love to hear that counseling is given to every person who needs it. I’d love to hear that the pastor doesn’t have a beach house in an expensive neighborhood... I have great respect for many churches that help their communities and give generously to the worlds needy. What does this church do that I should respect? I don’t see them spending money on anything that doesn’t grow their business... maybe I’m wrong ‍

You're being disingenuous. Oh, yes, it sounds as though you had quite a few positive takeaways from your "TERRIBLE" experience. Your "positive" statements were all pretty obvious back-handed compliments. As the saying goes "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?"

I don't "assume" you're dishonest. I think your post says you're simply an "agenda-driven atheist."

You'd "love to hear" what the church does for the needy. Then why didn't you ask questions or do some rudimentary investigation before posting? Are you that rare bird, a non-critical thinking atheist who leaps to conclusions?

Here's what they claim. You can cross-examine their missions director via Missions - Harvest Christian Fellowship.

"At Harvest, our missions, disaster relief, and medical teams travel around the world and locally, ministering God’s love.​

As Christ’s ambassadors, we are spiritually and physically preaching the gospel, making disciples, and showing God’s love. We do this through rebuilding churches, serving in outreaches, orphanages, shelters, medical brigades, evangelism, etc. Often we are sent in response to a natural disaster.​

Whether locally, nationally, or internationally, Harvest Missions is the hands, feet, and heart of the Lord in ministering to many hurting and less fortunate people. Harvest reserves the right to allow or disallow anyone that wants to participate in our mission activities. Team members are expected to display love, humility, unity, servanthood, submission to authority, and the ability to adjust to changes; to ensure a safe, effective and blessed ministry experience that will glorify our Lord and encourage all."​

 

[AvisG]

Looks like you discovered a business masquerading as a church. There's a number of those out there these days.

A mega-church is a business. That's unavoidable. Harvest Christian Fellowship has numerous campuses and a huge staff. If you knew anything about Greg Laurie and his ministry, I doubt you'd think HCF was "masquerading as a church."

Sure, I'd prefer a folksy church with an unassuming pastor who drove a 1992 Chevy, that took pumpkin pies to orphans and widows, that had well-attended potlucks every Sunday, and that served as a truly caring substitute family for its members, each of whom knew each other intimately and shared each other's joys and griefs. Every visitor would be greeted warmly and made to feel welcome. That is certainly one model for a church. But it's not the only one.

(I attended several small, small-town Southern Baptist churches that should have fit the above model. They were filled with dissension and scandals of every sort to a degree that was depressing and difficult to believe. Scientologists would have been more harmonious, I'm sure.)

From what I've heard of Greg Laurie (a lot) and his church, I am confident that he and it are not "masquerading" as anything. They are accomplishing what a mega-church can accomplish, which is in many ways more (and in some ways less) than a small, folksy church can accomplish. A ministry such as this cannot operate in the same manner as a church with a $100,000 budget.

 

[ChristopherHays]

You're being disingenuous. Oh, yes, it sounds as though you had quite a few positive takeaways from your "TERRIBLE" experience. Your "positive" statements were all pretty obvious back-handed compliments. As the saying goes "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?"

I don't "assume" you're dishonest. I think your post says you're simply an "agenda-driven atheist."

You'd "love to hear" what the church does for the needy. Then why didn't you ask questions or do some rudimentary investigation before posting? Are you that rare bird, a non-critical thinking atheist who leaps to conclusions?

Here's what they claim. You can cross-examine their missions director via Missions - Harvest Christian Fellowship.

"At Harvest, our missions, disaster relief, and medical teams travel around the world and locally, ministering God’s love.​

As Christ’s ambassadors, we are spiritually and physically preaching the gospel, making disciples, and showing God’s love. We do this through rebuilding churches, serving in outreaches, orphanages, shelters, medical brigades, evangelism, etc. Often we are sent in response to a natural disaster.​

Whether locally, nationally, or internationally, Harvest Missions is the hands, feet, and heart of the Lord in ministering to many hurting and less fortunate people. Harvest reserves the right to allow or disallow anyone that wants to participate in our mission activities. Team members are expected to display love, humility, unity, servanthood, submission to authority, and the ability to adjust to changes; to ensure a safe, effective and blessed ministry experience that will glorify our Lord and encourage all."​

“Disingenuous” “agenda driven atheist”... please back these accusations up with some actual details. What did I say that was wrong? What judgement have I made that is not true?

You’re wrong to assume that I didn’t ask questions or do research. I read the church’s mission statement and tried to find actual financial details. If you could provide some I’d be very interested.

one of the businesses I co-own sells outdoor adventure apparel. We saw a huge boost in sales after marketing with our charitable partners. For every sale we made, we teamed up to plant a tree. Anyone who cared to know could find out that less than 1% of the sale price was spent on the tree. This is a marketing tactic many businesses use. Charities on the other hand are supposed to give far far far more. Is this church acting more like a business or a charity? I’d love to see their financial details to find out. If they refuse to disclose those details, there’s probably a reason.

 

[AvisG]

“Disingenuous” “agenda driven atheist”... please back these accusations up with some actual details. What did I say that was wrong? What judgement have I made that is not true?

Initial post:

"Overall it was a TERRIBLE experience."
"I’ve literally had better conversations with robots."
"15 minutes of what you should do with your money and 0 minutes about what they're doing with it."
"The message was basically a commercial for his latest book and it actually ended with a real video commercial for his book."
"They sell tons of coffee in the morning, boost perceived value during the offering speech, up-sell you at the end, and funnel you into their café for lunch... all without paying taxes?!?!"
"I don’t think a church would cancel counseling appointments if they really cared about the community. This seems like another strategy to keep their donating customers close to home."
"my main takeaway was this church is all about the money."
"I’m very sad to see so many people contributing to this business."​

Disingenuous tap-dancing:

"I actually said the sermon was well done and J John was funny and likable."​

Nah, not buying it. Agenda-driven atheist.

I have no idea what percentage of its income HCF spends on good-deed-doing or whether Greg Laurie's lifestyle is preposterously exorbitant. Challenge him and find out what you can. I just make the point that you are playing the atheist game a little too obviously.

 

[durangodawood]

I'm predisposed against mega churches just like I am against any sort of ideological mass rallies.

I may be wrong, but it seems to me that humans disposition to get caught up in a sort of mania, and abandon one's own discernment, only increases with the scale of the event.

 

[Paidiske]

It seems like most of your churches are small town community churches. I used to go to a church like this when I was a Christian. I always looked forward to weekly fellowship. All my best friends attended and we had Sunday afternoon bbq, game nights, etc. if I lived in the area I may still attend just for the community. The best thing about that church was the volunteers. My best friends dad was the pastor and he worked very hard during the week so he could use every cent of donation money on church and community needs. They were real people trying to do what’s right.

I didn’t get the same feeling this Sunday.

Small inner-suburban parish church here, but I think the key word there is "small."

And I think you're perfectly entitled to share your observations and perceptions and discuss them.