Atheism is reasonable, and Christianity is not

Nihilist Virus

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Incidentally, I happen to share a life and home with a professor of astronomy. If anyone would like me to relay some questions to her on the subject, she would be delighted to answer.

I have probably three or four dozen. You shouldn't have offered this, lol. I'm going to exhaust all the questions you give me!

Question#1:
If a sufficiently dense, rigid object resisted the gravity of a neutron star enough so that it landed on the surface without being atomized, would it find that the surface is extremely hard due to the density of the star or would the object fall through the surface like water due to the gravity of the star?
 
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dcalling

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I didn't post those for you. You have no business attempting to address scholarly research papers. I can't stop you, of course, but that's not why I shared them.



Gosh, you better contact the researchers really quick. I'm sure they'll be grateful to hear the input of someone with zero understanding of the subject.

I'm ignoring the other two questions. It's not my job to educate you. I can only take so much dishonesty and willful ignorance before you disqualify yourself from being taken seriously. You passed that threshold a while ago.

For people reading along:

Like many concepts in evolutionary biology, there is no hard line defining multicellularity. Which is exactly what you'd expect to see in anything that is evolved - intermediary stages consisting of small, cumulative steps. I encourage you to check out the papers for yourself, and the popular level articles around them, for meaningful discussion on the topic.

But to this day all the researches point out that threr are things that make accumulation of mutations more and more difficult, from the long term e.coli evolution tests to the uni-muli cell research.

If you really think you know that I am wrong, why can't you answer any of my questions?
1. Those are not true multi-celluar organisms. They are at most pluricellular. There is no division of work among cells, they were just clumped together via settlement.
2. To #2, Did they analyze the DAN composition and check if anything changed? For example for long term e.coli test they were able to determine certain mutations pretain to the citrit change. If they clump together without mutations, what kind of evolving is that?
3. To #1 (yeast), yeast was originally multi-cell (ancestors), was it a pluricellular, or a mutation back to their orginal mulit-cell state (i.e that they evolved to lost their multi-cell state but it remained hidden)?
 
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Eight Foot Manchild

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But to this day all the researches point out that threr are things that make accumulation of mutations more and more difficult, from the long term e.coli evolution tests to the uni-muli cell research.

You keep saying that, and then failing miserably at actually demonstrating it in any meaningful fashion relevant to your position. All you've done is dishonestly represent the position of the researchers, over and over again to try and bolster your imaginary 'mutation barrier' - a concept that exists NOWHERE in science. Only in the fairy tale land of creationist apologetics.

My respone to your 'questions' (actually one assertion and two questions) hasn't changed since last time.
 
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Eight Foot Manchild

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Ok. Ask her this: When it comes to understanding the structure of it all, should I listen more to Frank Close OR to Lawrence Krauss? Or to neither; does someone else deserve our attention, maybe Michio Kaku or Neil deGrasse Tyson? :rolleyes:

You'll have to clarify what you mean by 'the structure of it all.'
 
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Eight Foot Manchild

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I have probably three or four dozen. You shouldn't have offered this, lol. I'm going to exhaust all the questions you give me!

Question#1:
If a sufficiently dense, rigid object resisted the gravity of a neutron star enough so that it landed on the surface without being atomized, would it find that the surface is extremely hard due to the density of the star or would the object fall through the surface like water due to the gravity of the star?

Her words:

It would feel solid, and in all likelihood, the two would explode as close to instantaneously as physically possible, ripping a hole in spacetime and creating a black hole. Essentially the same thing happens when two neutron stars collide, which occurs regularly enough that we have some idea of what it looks like.
_________________________
If you really have that many questions, I should probably create a separate thread.
 
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Eight Foot Manchild

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Well, if you believe that "something" has to have always* existed but is unlikely to be matter in any way that we might understand the term, you're pretty much a step away from Necessary Being anyway. Which is perfectly fine--there are atheists out there who accept Necessary Being but don't attribute the traditional divine properties to it.

'A step'? I would say that's a number of steps away. Large steps, covered in Crisco.

There's still the question of why causality exists at all

Perhaps it's as fundamental as the law of identity. An unavoidable condition of existence.

But maybe not. Maybe at t=0, the thing we call 'causality' becomes something else we have no concept of.

Who knows? Literally no one. And anyone who pretends to is selling rotten goods.
 
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Silmarien

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'A step'? I would say that's a number of steps away. Large steps, covered in Crisco.

Not really. If you think that something has to exist, you're at Necessary Being. Doesn't really matter if you think that something is the Abrahamic God, the universe itself, some unknown non-matter material, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Perhaps it's as fundamental as the law of identity. An unavoidable condition of existence.

But maybe not. Maybe at t=0, the thing we call 'causality' becomes something else we have no concept of.

Who knows? Literally no one. And anyone who pretends to is selling rotten goods.

Ehh, if we think laws are fundamental aspects of reality, that brings up a whole bunch of interesting questions as well. And also shoves you right back at Necessary Being and probably commits you to some form of platonism anyway.

Now, if you just want to throw a temper tantrum about certainty, there's not much I can say to that. I'm not sure I believe in knowledge at all.
 
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Nihilist Virus

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Her words:

It would feel solid, and in all likelihood, the two would explode as close to instantaneously as physically possible, ripping a hole in spacetime and creating a black hole. Essentially the same thing happens when two neutron stars collide, which occurs regularly enough that we have some idea of what it looks like.
_________________________
If you really have that many questions, I should probably create a separate thread.

That doesn't make sense. I think she made assumptions about the object being placed on the star. I never said it was all that massive. I don't know why there would be an explosion unless there was a type I supernova, but again, I didn't imply there was enough mass at play for that to happen.
 
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Eight Foot Manchild

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Not really. If you think that something has to exist, you're at Necessary Being. Doesn't really matter if you think that something is the Abrahamic God, the universe itself, some unknown non-matter material, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

I would not be so arrogant as to argue that it 'has to exist'. Only that it stands on some inductive strength.

And I disagree that it doesn't matter. Some 'somethings' - the Abrahamic God, for instance - are loaded with way more assumptions than others.

Ehh, if we think laws are fundamental aspects of reality, that brings up a whole bunch of interesting questions as well.

It sure does.

And also shoves you right back at Necessary Being and probably commits you to some form of platonism anyway.

Probably not any form Plato would recognize.

Now, if you just want to throw a temper tantrum about certainty, there's not much I can say to that.

Who's throwing a 'temper tantrum'?

I'm not sure I believe in knowledge at all.

In that case you'd have to agree with me - no one knows.
 
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Silmarien

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I would not be so arrogant as to argue that it 'has to exist'. Only that it stands on some inductive strength.

Sure, but I would argue that reality is completely unintelligible if it doesn't. Magically persistent universes that could just as easily be blinking into and out of existence every five minutes and all. And hey, maybe that's precisely what's happening.

And I disagree that it doesn't matter. Some 'somethings' - the Abrahamic God, for instance - are loaded with way more assumptions than others.

For the concept of Necessary Being, it doesn't matter. The Abrahamic God certainly has additional attributes above and beyond that (though how many depends on your theology), but these shouldn't be conflated with Necessary Being itself. It's a pretty simple concept.

In that case you'd have to agree with me - no one knows.

Only if you agree with me that nobody truly knows anything at all, including whether they themselves and the universe at large actually exist. I take my radical skepticism pretty seriously, but it means that I don't place an impossibly high burden of proof upon theists. If a mystic claims that the existence of a divine reality is as certain to them as their own, then I would consider that as close to knowledge as it's humanly possible to get.

Does that mean it has to be true? Of course not. Cartesian demons and all that.
 
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dcalling

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You keep saying that, and then failing miserably at actually demonstrating it in any meaningful fashion relevant to your position. All you've done is dishonestly represent the position of the researchers, over and over again to try and bolster your imaginary 'mutation barrier' - a concept that exists NOWHERE in science. Only in the fairy tale land of creationist apologetics.

My respone to your 'questions' (actually one assertion and two questions) hasn't changed since last time.


Quote from the research:
2009: In 2009, Barrick et al. reported the results of genome sequences from multiple time points in population Ara-1. They found that, unlike the declining rate of fitness improvement, mutation accumulation was linear and clock like, even though several lines of evidence suggested that much of the accumulation was beneficial, rather than neutral
2013 "the [fitness] increase would continue without bound as progressively lower benefit mutations were fixed in the populations"

So mutations always occur but good ones are progressively decreasing. In fact they didn't report any actual benefitial mutations since the cit change, most they notices are defects.

They completely reversed their research on rate of fitness improvement and mutations, from saying fitness are decresing to increasing, from "mutations are clock and liner, lines of evidence suggested that much of the accumulation was beneficial", to "rogressively lower benefit mutations were fixed".

My "dishonest imaginary mutation barrier" seems to exist in actual testing. Unless you can show actual lab tests that shows otherwise.
 
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Eight Foot Manchild

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Quote from the research:
2009: In 2009, Barrick et al. reported the results of genome sequences from multiple time points in population Ara-1. They found that, unlike the declining rate of fitness improvement, mutation accumulation was linear and clock like, even though several lines of evidence suggested that much of the accumulation was beneficial, rather than neutral
2013 "the [fitness] increase would continue without bound as progressively lower benefit mutations were fixed in the populations"

So mutations always occur but good ones are progressively decreasing. In fact they didn't report any actual benefitial mutations since the cit change, most they notices are defects.

They completely reversed their research on rate of fitness improvement and mutations, from saying fitness are decresing to increasing, from "mutations are clock and liner, lines of evidence suggested that much of the accumulation was beneficial", to "rogressively lower benefit mutations were fixed".

This is your most desperate and dishonest act of quote-mining yet, and you're still failing miserably at demonstrating anything meaningful. None of that represents a 'reverse in research'.

Even if the narrative you have constructed were true, and accurately represented the conclusions of the researchers themselves, all you would have on your hands is a fluctuation in mutation rate, which scientists have already known can happen. In fact it's a prediction of evolution in a constant environment without selective pressure, as used in the study. But of course, that's not the whole story. If you look elsewhere in the article you are quote-mining from, you will find this excerpt,

Further work published in 2015 reported the results of over 1100 new fitness assays that examined fitness changes through 60,000 generations. The data once again fit the proposed power law model, and, indeed, fit within predictions of the model from earlier data. These results suggest that, contrary to previous thinking, adaptation and adaptive divergence can potentially increase indefinitely, even in a constant environment.

Adaptive divergence with no bound is the exact opposite of a 'mutation barrier'.

Just to really hammer the point home, as has been pointed out several times at this point, the researchers themselves, whom you continue to dishonestly represent, believe a speciation process may be happening within the study right now. Which again, is the exact opposite of what you set out to demonstrate when you first brought this up - that your imaginary 'mutation barrier' prevents speciation from occurring.

I really shouldn't have to go any further than that. The researchers themselves, who are responsible for the study, conclude

THE. EXACT. OPPOSITE.

of what you are trying to force them to conclude. I don't have to say anything else besides that, but I will anyway.

My "dishonest imaginary mutation barrier" seems to exist in actual testing.

No, it absolutely does not. The very best case you could get from your desperate act of quote-mining is a change in mutation rate, which proves nothing at all.

Unless you can show actual lab tests that shows otherwise.

LOL.
No. Doesn't work that way.

You are the one attempting to demonstrate a concept that exists nowhere in science, going against a gigantic body of critically robust evidence in opposition to you, so the burden of proof is yours. You have utterly, abysmally, hilariously failed to meet it, even when you shamelessly cheat by dishonestly representing the researchers responsible for the study, over and over and over again. The crap you have tried to pull here in proving your imaginary 'mutation barrier' would get you laughed out of any biology department of any university on the planet.

Well, except a fake biology department like Liberty. They might be stupid enough to fall for this.
 
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devolved

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This means that Christianity is fundamentally unreasonable. Christianity cannot be defended logically, but must be believed by faith. And faith is not a path to the truth: just look no further than Islam.

I'd love to debate this topic on a separate thread if you are up for it.
 
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Willis Gravning

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Incidentally, I happen to share a life and home with a professor of astronomy. If anyone would like me to relay some questions to her on the subject, she would be delighted to answer.
I have a question for your astronomer. I understand the star Vega is a fairly close neighbor at about 25 light years and is approaching us at about eight miles per second. And in another 12,000 years or so it will be the Earth's pole star, although this latter point may be more due to wobble in the Earth's axis rather than angular displacement of the star.
My question is this, how close will Vega come to Earth and how bright will it be?
Vega was the star visited by Jodi Foster in the movie Contact btw.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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If there exists a rule, then nothingness is out of the picture.

Obviously, which is pretty much in line with what Frank Close states. Nothingness, scientifically considered, is not nothing. I just posted the video with Close in it because I like him better than I do Lawrence Krauss. ;)
 
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dcalling

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Bigger bolder text does not mean you are right.

I will post what you said are the most desperate and dishonest act below again. Would you like to quote from the scientist to show that I am wrong? :)

Quote from the research:
2009: In 2009, Barrick et al. reported the results of genome sequences from multiple time points in population Ara-1. They found that, unlike the declining rate of fitness improvement, mutation accumulation was linear and clock like, even though several lines of evidence suggested that much of the accumulation was beneficial, rather than neutral
2013 "the [fitness] increase would continue without bound as progressively lower benefit mutations were fixed in the populations"

So mutations always occur but good ones are progressively decreasing. In fact they didn't report any actual benefitial mutations since the cit change, most they notices are defects.


This is your most desperate and dishonest act of quote-mining yet, and you're still failing miserably at demonstrating anything meaningful. None of that represents a 'reverse in research'.

Even if the narrative you have constructed were true, and accurately represented the conclusions of the researchers themselves, all you would have on your hands is a fluctuation in mutation rate, which scientists have already known can happen. In fact it's a prediction of evolution in a constant environment without selective pressure, as used in the study. But of course, that's not the whole story. If you look elsewhere in the article you are quote-mining from, you will find this excerpt,

Further work published in 2015 reported the results of over 1100 new fitness assays that examined fitness changes through 60,000 generations. The data once again fit the proposed power law model, and, indeed, fit within predictions of the model from earlier data. These results suggest that, contrary to previous thinking, adaptation and adaptive divergence can potentially increase indefinitely, even in a constant environment.

Adaptive divergence with no bound is the exact opposite of a 'mutation barrier'.

Just to really hammer the point home, as has been pointed out several times at this point, the researchers themselves, whom you continue to dishonestly represent, believe a speciation process may be happening within the study right now. Which again, is the exact opposite of what you set out to demonstrate when you first brought this up - that your imaginary 'mutation barrier' prevents speciation from occurring.

I really shouldn't have to go any further than that. The researchers themselves, who are responsible for the study, conclude

THE. EXACT. OPPOSITE.

of what you are trying to force them to conclude. I don't have to say anything else besides that, but I will anyway.



No, it absolutely does not. The very best case you could get from your desperate act of quote-mining is a change in mutation rate, which proves nothing at all.



LOL.
No. Doesn't work that way.

You are the one attempting to demonstrate a concept that exists nowhere in science, going against a gigantic body of critically robust evidence in opposition to you, so the burden of proof is yours. You have utterly, abysmally, hilariously failed to meet it, even when you shamelessly cheat by dishonestly representing the researchers responsible for the study, over and over and over again. The crap you have tried to pull here in proving your imaginary 'mutation barrier' would get you laughed out of any biology department of any university on the planet.

Well, except a fake biology department like Liberty. They might be stupid enough to fall for this.
 
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