• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Atheism is amoral

Discussion in 'Ethics & Morality' started by HenryM, Oct 19, 2017.

  1. Eudaimonist

    Eudaimonist I believe in life before death!

    +2,549
    Atheist
    Private
    US-Libertarian
    Of course. But who are you saying is doing that? I don't think that Par5 did that simply by commenting on a new thread of yours. I don't necessarily notice all of the new threads, and I find that helpful to understand context.

    I have no objections as long as physical force isn't one of your tools for spreading the message.

    I like to spread inspiring news, a message of reason, and rational living. We're not really all that different in that respect.

    Yes, I understand your message quite well. You have explained it clearly, and it is essentially a simple message. I don't happen to believe that we live in that reality to which your message applies.

    You haven't failed to deliver your message. It's just that it is as unconvincing as if someone were to tell me to worship Odin and die with a sword in my hand because I might not otherwise be able to join the fallen in Valhalla, and that I had better do that soon because Ragnarök could arrive any year now. What would be your reaction to someone if you were be presented with that "Good News"? Wouldn't it be something like: "but that isn't the reality I live in!" It's the same thing for me.

    You are presenting a solution to a problem I don't think exists. And my life really isn't as bad as you might think. While I don't wander around in a state of inebriation-like bliss, I have a sense of ethics and values, of purpose and meaning in life, and of valuing or respecting other people as ends-in-themselves. I have a rich life.

    I am sad for you that you can't feel happy for people who see reality differently than you do. That must be a difficult burden to bear. Whatever problems I may see in Christianity, I can at least be happy if the lives of Christians are going at least passably well. I don't have to feel the dread that they might have some terrible fate after death.


    eudaimonia,

    Mark
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  2. Strathos

    Strathos No one important

    +1,987
    Christian
    Single
    US-Democrat
    I was just pointing out that you're behaving exactly like she described. Probably why it upsets you so much.
     
  3. Allandavid

    Allandavid Well-Known Member

    +3,828
    Australia
    Atheist
    Married
    Speak for yourself...
     
  4. Desk trauma

    Desk trauma Atheist Capitalist Supporter

    +4,387
    Atheist
    Private
    US-Libertarian
    At least I’m not the only one that keeps missing the memos from EAC headquarters about our electing a theist as our spokesperson.
     
  5. Lilly54

    Lilly54 Well-Known Member

    805
    +851
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    In Relationship
    Well Mark
    We are indeed very different. I am so glad i am no longer like you.
    I do not go around in a joyful trance like a deluded idiot. As a christian i am not spared at all from the realities and difficulties of life. But i am given the strength to deal with what i must, because i ask in sincere prayer. You have to ask.
    Jesus Christ is very real, the Bible is the truth. It is a wonderful incredible thing to finally know this. We do not need to struggle alone. No human being can give you what Jesus can and will, if you ask with a humble heart.
    I do hope one day you will see and hear and live the Good News. Then you will understand the great peace that accompanies it. A peace like no other.

    That is why i have been able to face and deal with my husband's terrible death from throat cancer. I have felt all the grief but i have come through calmly and am now thriving. God has been with me every second and always will be. None of can cope on our own. We need God.
     
  6. Nithavela

    Nithavela Even the passenger gets in trouble

    +7,649
    Germany
    Other Religion
    Single
    You could ask the moderators on prohibiting this sort of behaviour. Some forums do. I even know of a forum where you aren't even allowed to comment on other people's behaviour outside of the thread you are commenting in.

    External baggage, it's called.
     
  7. Nithavela

    Nithavela Even the passenger gets in trouble

    +7,649
    Germany
    Other Religion
    Single
    Isn't the christian god known for hardening hearts in opposition of his followers?
     
  8. Nithavela

    Nithavela Even the passenger gets in trouble

    +7,649
    Germany
    Other Religion
    Single
    Is that what the people in that other thread told you?

    Matter of fact, I'll just check for myself...
     
  9. Nithavela

    Nithavela Even the passenger gets in trouble

    +7,649
    Germany
    Other Religion
    Single
    Okay.. Looks like the general advice is to offer your advice and, if it isn't accepted, kick the dust off your feet and leave. I'd suggest you follow that advice, Lilly. It doesn't look like you're actually following that advice, though. Were you just looking to "recharge" your batteries to get back into the "fight"?

    @Strathos as for the suggestion to steer the discussion into a familiar field and then "beat" the atheist there, you might find that atheists actually ask for sources because they want to learn something and correct their false knowledge. Sometimes a christian I see on this forum makes a scientific point I find interesting, but more often then not they appear to misrepresent the data or quote faulty studies. It's why I mostly steer clear from the science forum, these days. Scientific discussions involve to much google searching of journals and too little reasoning for my taste.

    Also, is this your reason for being so upset about someone bringing up that thread? That your "underhanded tactic" (paraphrasing you) could be exposed?
     
  10. Strathos

    Strathos No one important

    +1,987
    Christian
    Single
    US-Democrat
    Nah, I wouldn't have posted it if I was worried about that. It's just a fun thing to do sometimes.
     
  11. GrowingSmaller

    GrowingSmaller Muslm Humanist

    +305
    United Kingdom
    Humanist
    Private
    Sounds like you had a religious experience, and have been overwhelmed by the goodness of faith and its difficult to see how you missed it. That way my experience too. So now youre looking at non-Christians, with sympathy but also disbelief? Your "mental model" for them is based on your past experience, maybe?

    I know that people are diverse, and so will you, but I can also relate to "finding God" which I think uproots so much old neurology that the change is nothing short of profound for many people. Its one of those things which cant be communicated. The atheist Sam Harris cant relate to how Francis Collins (iirc) found God in an experience looking at a waterfall. But for one who has experienced a "transformation" then youll more likely have insight?
    The Strange Case of Francis Collins

    Pascal had a religious experience too, and wrote:

    "GOD of Abraham, GOD of Isaac, GOD of Jacob
    not of the philosophers and of the learned.
    Certitude. Certitude. Feeling. Joy. Peace.
    GOD of Jesus Christ.
    My God and your God.
    Your GOD will be my God...."

    A Night of Fire: The Mystical Vision that Converted Scientist Blaise Pascal | ChurchPOP
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2017
  12. Nithavela

    Nithavela Even the passenger gets in trouble

    +7,649
    Germany
    Other Religion
    Single
    Well, as long as you enjoy it.

    Got an example of that tactic at work?
     
  13. Strathos

    Strathos No one important

    +1,987
    Christian
    Single
    US-Democrat
    I don't feel like searching through old threads.
     
  14. Eudaimonist

    Eudaimonist I believe in life before death!

    +2,549
    Atheist
    Private
    US-Libertarian
    My post was mainly about how we aren't all that different, and that we may have some common ground. Does that bother you? Or was it the differences I had mentioned that you're reacting to? I'm not sure that I understand your reaction.

    Perhaps you can spell out those ways you think that we are similar, and those ways you think that we are different.

    Wow, those are your words, not mine. I didn't say anything about you being "deluded" or an "idiot". I have no such impression of you.

    My point is that I don't claim to have a perfect life and live in perfect peace and bliss, but still my life is worthwhile.

    You mention peace below. Perhaps I should mention here that I tend to associate peace with bliss. If you don't, perhaps you've misunderstood me.

    Okay, maybe I missed the posts where you had mentioned that, because your sales pitch for Christianity comes across as glowing, and promising frequent miracles. I am not spared those life difficulties either, but I also have the strength to deal with what I must.

    I understand that you believe that. I think that you are in error. That's not a personal attack, but simply my honest view of things. You are free to disagree with me, just as I am with you.

    Do you happen to remember when you wrote this: "As a christian i am not spared at all from the realities and difficulties of life"?

    And now you are talking about experiencing "a peace like no other".

    Compare those two statements. Can you understand why I would say that I don't walk around in a perfect state of bliss? Can you understand what it is that you are promising in your sales pitch that would make me be careful not to oversell my experiences?

    All I ask is that you are fair with me. Don't treat me like the bad guy when you are promising some extraordinary ability to deal with the hardships of life.


    eudaimonia,

    Mark
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2017
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  15. Lilly54

    Lilly54 Well-Known Member

    805
    +851
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    In Relationship
    Hi Mark

    You are missing out on peace and joy untold. You just do not understand. This life is full of storms and pain. But we true christians can smile and feel secure no matter what. Why? Because we know that the greatest power of all, God, will always get us through.
    This is why i was able to sit peacefully beside my husband at the hospice as he died. Then deal with appalling behaviour from members of our families and not fall apart. I dealt alone eith funeral arrangements because my own daughter walked away. I still have no contact three years later.
    Jesus Christ has protected and guided me. I never felt scared on my own at home at night. I cried, felt all the grief. But never lost control. Never needed tablets or alcohol. I prayed for strength and it has always come.
    I've done nothing but prosper. I have a new partner now and we are so happy. All through the power of Christ.
    You may look cynically at all this. But just compare my experience with those who have no belief in God. Such people are lost. Family and friends can and do let you down. It's human weakness. We all let each other down. I am not perfect or saintly. I depend humbly on God who is perfect love. Christ is the light in this dark world.
    But keep in mind that if your life is not guided by Christ, it certainly is guided by his opposite. The Devil is also just as real. He is the alternative. He has a free reign fir now because we have free will. We choose him or Jesus. Do have a think about who and what really drives you. At the moment of your death it will matter a great deal as eternity beckons. There is no neutral ground.
     
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
    • List
  16. Eight Foot Manchild

    Eight Foot Manchild His Supreme Holy Correctfulness

    +682
    United States
    Atheist
    Married
    Seems to me that all Christianity has given you is the delusion that your extremely narrow scope of experience is somehow more profound and meaningful than anyone else's. Which is a vastly arrogant and vacuous naked assertion.

    Even if I were to allow that your life is more 'joyful' than mine (which I also don't believe for a second), I would still prefer to deal with reality on its own terms than resort to feel-good fantasies.

    So thanks, but no thanks. If it's meaningful to you, by all means keep it, but we're not buying what you're selling.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • List
  17. Freodin

    Freodin Devout believer in a theologically different God

    +2,116
    Atheist
    As you said to Mark, you two are indeed very different. Read his posts again. He basically does nothing but state that he doesn't begrudge you your happiness, and points out that he can have that, too.

    But you cannot accept that.

    You have been through a difficult time. You have lost a loved one. And your faith kept you up. That's great for you.

    But why do you feel this need to put other people down? Why do you need to deny their experiences?

    Ok, let's compare.
    (Short background to establish a comparable situation. I am single. Always have been. My father died some 20 years back, and my family consisted of my mentally handicapped brother, for whom I was responsible, and my aging mother.)
    About four years ago, my brother was diagnosed with stomach cancer. The treatment was hard on him and he needed all my support. It was a full-time job for me caring for him. Ultimately, he succumbed to the cancer. He spend his last days at home, in my care. It wasn't easy, to say the least. I watched him die. I organized the funeral, alone, on my own.
    My mother was devastated. Two days after my brother's death, she complained about stomach aches, so painful that I drove her to hospital. She didn't come home again... she had had a minor heart attack and died from complications. I organized another funeral, while my brother's had not even yet happened. Alone, on my own, because now I was the only one left of my family.

    I never lost control. Never needed pills or alcohol. Never broke in my grief, never ranted against fate, the world or the non-existent gods in which I don't believe. I didn't need to "pray for strength"... I just did what I had to do.

    I have no belief in God. And yet, my experiences do not seem that different from yours. So don't tell me I am "lost", and I am missing something. You don't know me, you don't know what kinds of happiness and peace I have or have not in my life.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
    • Like Like x 2
    • Friendly Friendly x 2
    • List
  18. Lilly54

    Lilly54 Well-Known Member

    805
    +851
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    In Relationship
    Lol!
    Well i don't really know what you are doing here. But never mind. You atheists who are reading these posts can never turn around and say you were not warned.
    It is entirely up to you.
    But when the moment comes that you need the Lord, and it will, just be sure of one thing. Jesus Christ loves you whether you deserve it or not.
     
  19. Allandavid

    Allandavid Well-Known Member

    +3,828
    Australia
    Atheist
    Married
    Good grief...the arrogance...!
     
    • Winner Winner x 3
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • List
  20. Freodin

    Freodin Devout believer in a theologically different God

    +2,116
    Atheist
    You think this is funny? Someone tells you how he sat with his dying brother, cleaning up his excrements and watching him literally vomit his life away... and your reaction is "Lol, Atheists!"

    See, THIS is what we atheists are doing here. Talking to tone-deaf, unempathic people like you, who cannot talk about "Jesus' love" without making it a threat.

    I don't know about how Jesus Christ loves me, or how I "deserve" it or not. But I know one thing: people like you have a lot to learn about love!
     
    • Winner Winner x 9
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
Loading...