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Atheism as a Faith: The (Hopefully) Final Debate

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by leftrightleftrightleft, Aug 27, 2010.

  1. hamashiachagape

    hamashiachagape Newbie

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    Because thats how you find the truth. You nitpick until you find it. And I have thoroughly studied the topic of Atheism. I have done my share of research at places such as www.infidels.org and www.positiveatheism.org . I have studied the Christ Myth in detail. I have studied Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Michael Martin, Tom Harpur, Peter Gandy and Timothy Freke, Acharya S, ad nauseam.
     
  2. xDenax

    xDenax Jewish

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    I am so happy for you.
     
  3. hamashiachagape

    hamashiachagape Newbie

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    Perhaps you should study them too. There are resources.
     
  4. xDenax

    xDenax Jewish

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    I'm working on Heschel and Mussar. I'll get around to Dawkins one of these days.
     
  5. hamashiachagape

    hamashiachagape Newbie

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    I have studied Dawkins and refutations of him......Meh. I can save you the trouble if you want. Basically the world has no purpose, and humans are useless.
     
  6. Wicked Willow

    Wicked Willow Well-Known Member

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    That discounts pretty much every agnostic/"weak" atheist. (And yes, they do exist, no matter how hard you try to deny it.)

    Evolution is not an "atheist-thing". Most Christians around the world have no problem whatsoever with accepting evolution just as they accepted heliocentrism. Creationism is a specifically American oddity, possibly owed to the fact that Europe exported its religious extremist fringe to the western colonies.)

    Oh, so Objectivists aren't really atheists? Quick, send them a memo!

    See point three. You'll find that some other atheistic world views also do not match this criterion.
     
  7. Tenka

    Tenka Guest

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    You could form a list of of things which may fit a general description of an atheist in the western world, but which are not related to lacking belief in a god. All you're actually doing is forming a crude profile.

    Is there an atheist who is not a proponent of Ev theory? Atheism existed long before TOE, even today I'm sure there must be many atheists who could simply respond that they don't know.
    Not knowing is perfectly valid, atheism doesn't necessarily require answers to every question.
    In any case, accepting that science, while imperfect, is the best method of learning about our world is not just common among atheists, but among all educated people including almost every variety of theist.

    Is there an atheist that's not a materialist? Sure, visit Japan. Approx 65% atheist and most hold shinto beliefs.
     
  8. Wicked Willow

    Wicked Willow Well-Known Member

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    It's weird that atheism and evolution are always linked in the minds of American Christians!

    The vast majority of Christians in the world has not the slightest trouble with modern biology. Creationism is pretty much a specifically American oddity, and laughed off as a lunatic fringe phenomenon in the rest of the world.
     
  9. Eudaimonist

    Eudaimonist I believe in life before death!

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    I don't claim to know that there is no god. Rather, what I do know does not include any knowledge of gods, and has no need for gods. My worldview is godless.

    That's a recent development in the history of the West. It is certainly not intrinsic to atheism.

    I'm not a moral relativist. I wouldn't say, for instance, that just because a culture holds X as a moral value, then X is what members of that culture ought to pursue.

    I view the requirements of human life as an objective standard of value, with which one may judge the desirability of various values, virtues, moral rules, etc.

    Relative to what? Reality is the standard of truth.

    Hardly! And there is no single "system of Atheism". There are many atheistic systems.

    I find purpose easy to grasp. I view human nature as having the natural purpose of personal flourishing in society.


    eudaimonia,

    Mark
     
  10. Eudaimonist

    Eudaimonist I believe in life before death!

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    Are you referring to a Marxist style reductive materialism? I'm certainly not a materialist in that vein.

    I don't deny the existence of conscious awareness. I see both mind and materiality as aspects of the single human entity. It's true that I don't believe in realms of consciousness or "souls" that exist separately from physicality in some dualistic sense, but I'm certainly not a physical monist who believes that mind is merely "an illusion".

    I also believe that human beings have the power to make genuine choices, and that places me squarely outside the implied determinism of reductive materialism.


    eudaimonia,

    Mark
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2010
  11. dewaddict84

    dewaddict84 meh

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    Naw, that's pretty much the textbook definition of agnostic.

    Now that's just insulting. Same to you buddy.

    Not quite. People with factless theories shouldn't be called scientists. Whenever I hear about a study or a report, I don't have faith that it's true, I have hope that it's true and will stand up to review. Likewise, I function with an assumption that things like gravity and sunrise will continue to act like they have all my life, but that's not faith. Those things really could change in an apocalyptic fashion.

    And I'll still disagree.

    Well, no. There doesn't appear to be any reason to believe in an afterlife, so I don't. What items people have brought forth as reasons to believe in such a thing have not stood up to inspection and tests.
    Speaking of which:
    Citation or it didn't happen the way you say it did.

    Did you see any of the episodes involving Christianity? Hilarious!
    Actually, I'd agree with you here. There is certainly a rational worldview that includes atheism. And there IS sort of an atheist movement, just like there has always been, but now they're not being burned at the stake or being called communists. (unless they support Obama)


    Yeah, I'm not really part of that. So there's no organization here.

    Yup. A friend of mine got ordained by some universal church or something so he could perform the ceremony to get me and the wife married. It was fantastic. But this whole "ordained" thing is priced accordingly: $0.00.

    Wut? Naw man. All baptists are Christians, but not all Christians are baptists. Sets and sub-sets. Ya get it?
    Except you're butchering the definition of naturalism as well...

    Aye, it does. As as part of the atheist worldview, the religion part. For those who hold some sort of atheistic religion. But as for those who just hold the atheist belief, it doesn't say anything about evolution. Really, this was covered in the first post.
     
  12. razeontherock

    razeontherock Well-Known Member

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    This does not logically follow. Modern biology has not seen biotic primordial slime develop into modern man. We've seen how many generations of virus and bacteria under the microscope? And for all the mutations we've observed, bacterium are still bacterium - and finches are still finches.
     
  13. tucker58

    tucker58 Jesus is Lord

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    Finches, were originally from the bird side of the dinosaur reality. It has been proven that a significant amount of the dinosaur reality was really big birds.

    Even today, the finches came from something else because life is extremely adaptable. If Nature kills off an old species one or more new species show up to occupy the space of the old species.

    As an example, most of the disease strains that mankind is dealing with, in today's world, did not exist before "antibiotic counter measures" were developed by mankind and medical science. They did not come off of the Ark. Or We all would be immune to them.

    love,

    tuck
     
  14. dewaddict84

    dewaddict84 meh

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    Ah, but we HAVE seen E-coli turn into something that isn't E-coli. See Lenski's experiment. And it came out of it's own natural mutation and genetic drift.

    And if you take a broader view, we are currently seeing the split between donkeys and horses. That can still breed, but the offspring is (quite usually) infertile.

    And there's no good way to explain why whales would have hip bones unless they walked on land at one point.

    But this is all for the CrEvo thread, if you really want to chat about it, go over there.
     
  15. razeontherock

    razeontherock Well-Known Member

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    Materialism and being materialistic are 2 different things, but perhaps a better term for me to have used would've been naturalistic?

    So what is this atheists better description of life?
     
  16. razeontherock

    razeontherock Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like "mony mony" to me. In other words, too hokey and over-played to be worth 2 cents and I don't buy it. I betcha your atheism is supported by firmly believing (or maybe just high skepticism) there is no such thing as supernatural anything. Lose too much of that aspect and you lose atheism and are agnostic, although I think that also encompasses those that just don't care.

    How many of those do you think are in hell?
     
  17. Lord Emsworth

    Lord Emsworth Je ne suis pas une de vos élèves.

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    You never heard of monism?

    Of couse I don't believe there is a supernatural anything. I thought that should have been clear from my post. Although, in a sense, I make a much, much stronger statement. Mind, in a sense. In a different sense, it is all the same old, same old. ;)


    Really?

    52.789
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2010
  18. Wicked Willow

    Wicked Willow Well-Known Member

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    How does your post relate to what I wrote?
    Does it counter the fact that Creationism is a specifically American oddity? That the vast majority of Christians has no beef with evolution?
    No.

    As for your arguments: we could turn this into a debate on evolution, and I could definitely teach you a thing or two, but
    a) this isn't the thread OR the sub-forum for that, and
    b) past experience has taught me that Creationists mostly do not *want* to learn anything new in that regard. They feel much more comfortable sticking to the sort of garbled half-truths and twisted facts that are the hallmark of creation "science".

    At the end of the day, evolution is still one of the most extensively tested AND substantiated scientific theories in existence, and of fundamental importance to various scientific disciplines, all of which show unequivocally that it's more than just a shaky hypothesis. There is no controversy beyond a very small circle of religious fringe fundamentalists, who simply cannot cope with the fact that their Bronze Age myths do not quite add up with what has been found and discovered during the last two centuries.
     
  19. Eudaimonist

    Eudaimonist I believe in life before death!

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    Have you heard of dualism? Monism is opposed, for instance, to dualism. It's a very useful word. I don't believe in neutral monism, but it's somewhat close to what I believe.

    That wouldn't be true in my case. My naturalism is supported by a rejection of supernaturalism, but even if I accepted supernaturalism, I would still be an atheist without further revision to my worldview.


    eudaimonia,

    Mark
     
  20. Greg1234

    Greg1234 In the beginning was El

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    :thumbsup:. Well said.
     
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