Atheism as a Faith: The (Hopefully) Final Debate

[Jane_the_Bane]

It can be boiled down to one thing in fact.

"There is no absolute truth." Thats a statement meant to be absolutely true. If it was absolutely true, then its a contradiction. If it is not, then there is an absolute truth. Epistemologically it is a failure.

Now the question becomes, what is the absolute truth?

For someone who is obviously trying to sell us an insurance, you're doing a very bad job at it. Lousy, I'm tempted to say.

As for epistemology: imagine for a moment that there WAS in fact no absolute truth - how would you express that without running into the *purely linguistic* problem that you've described here? Any ideas? suggestions? No? It was just a silly starting point for a witnessing attempt? Well, why didn't you say so!

 

[hamashiachagape]

For someone who is obviously trying to sell us an insurance, you're doing a very bad job at it. Lousy, I'm tempted to say.

As for epistemology: imagine for a moment that there WAS in fact no absolute truth - how would you express that without running into the *purely linguistic* problem that you've described here? Any ideas? suggestions? No? It was just a silly starting point for a witnessing attempt? Well, why didn't you say so!

So is special pleading the way to go? Prove there is no absolute truth, since I have demonstrated that it does exist.

Does logic not apply to reality? http://www.christian-thinktank.com/stult2.html

Ah, what you are seeing as Linguistic, is not purely linguistic at all. It is a peek into A Priori knowledge, something you may not be accustomed to.

Just as Scientific Principles have been discovered, so have Philosophical principles.

 

[hamashiachagape]

I already told you that I AM an agnostic. An agnostic atheist, as opposed to an agnostic theist. Agnosticism does not say "I don't know if I believe in a god." It says "I believe that god cannot be known". All agnostics still either have a belief in god or not despite their understanding that gods cannot be known. Agnostic theists/deists believe in god despite acknowledging that gods cannot be known. That is why they have "faith."

You seem to be confusing knowledge with belief. This link might explain it a little better: Atheism vs. Agnosticism: What's the Difference? Are they Alternatives to Each Other?

Question:
If atheism is just disbelief in gods, then what is the difference between that and agnosticism?

Response:

<snip>
Agnostic Atheism & Agnostic Theism

Once it is understood that atheism is merely the absence of belief in any gods, it becomes evident that agnosticism is not, as many assume, a &#8220;third way&#8221; between atheism and theism. The presence of a belief in a god and the absence of a belief in a god exhaust all of the possibilities. Agnosticism is not about belief in god but about knowledge &#8212; it was coined originally to describe the position of a person who could not claim to know for sure if any gods exist or not. Thus, it is clear that agnosticism is compatible with both theism and atheism. A person can believe in a god (theism) without claiming to know for sure if that god exists; the result is agnostic theism. On the other hand, a person can disbelieve in gods (atheism) without claiming to know for sure that no gods can or do exist; the result is agnostic atheism.
​

"True Atheist"? What do you mean by that? The lowest common denominator and only defintion that fits all atheists is having no belief in any god.

Although I hate using dictionary definitions since they only reflect "popular usage", and each dictionary has a different definition, here is a dictionary definition which defines it as most atheists do.

http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861587465/atheism.html

atheism
a·the·ism [ áythee ìzz&#601;m ]
noun
Definition:unbelief in God or deities: disbelief in the existence of God or deities

A true Atheist in Philosophical terms knows for a fact that there is no God. If he can not consistently confirm this, he moves into the realm of Agnostic. You can't have your cake and eat it too .

 

[SithDoughnut]

A true Atheist in Philosophical terms knows for a fact that there is no God. If he can not consistently confirm this, he moves into the realm of Agnostic. You can't have your cake and eat it too .

Please learn definitions. It's really useful. (A)gnosticism refers to whether you believe something can be known or not, while (a)theism refers to a belief in God. Therefore agnostic atheists do not hold a belief in God, but do believe that we cannot know for sure.

For all you claim to know, you know very little about definitions.

 

[hamashiachagape]

Please learn definitions. It's really useful. (A)gnosticism refers to whether you believe something can be known or not, while (a)theism refers to a belief in God. Therefore agnostic atheists do not hold a belief in God, but do believe that we cannot know for sure.

For all you claim to know, you know very little about definitions.

Agnostic Theology is different from Atheistic Theology. You are comparing Atheistic Theology with Agnostic Philosophy. Thats different. You need to be consistent with what you're comparing. IOW, Atheistic Philosophy with Agnostic Philosophy, vs. Atheistic Theology vs. Agnostic Theology. Its a common sensical matter. Don't mix apples with oranges.

 

[SithDoughnut]

Agnostic Theology is different from Atheistic Theology. You are comparing Atheistic Theology with Agnostic Philosophy. Thats different. Its a common sensical matter.

No it isn't, you still don't understand. Agnosticism is philosophy, not theology. Atheism is theology and not philosophy. Therefore the two are not mutually exclusive, because they focus on completely different things.

 

[hamashiachagape]

No it isn't, you still don't understand. Agnosticism is philosophy, not theology. Atheism is theology and not philosophy. Therefore the two are not mutually exclusive, because they focus on completely different things.

No Agnosticism entails many things just as Atheism has come to mean many things (we have realized through our discourses over the definition that it contains a doctrine). Both are actually thought to be primarily of Philosophical intent. There is Philosophy that underlies Atheism, which can also be seen to be different from Agnosticism. Belief about God is just one of these things. Some people are uncertain of religious beliefs about God, and this is classified as Agnostic Theology. Those who claim definitively that there is no God are Atheistic Theists. This is the reason that many scholars attempt to not classify Atheism as a Theism however to this day, and also Agnosticism given the obvious self refuting implications that exist.

 

[Glass*Soul]

I believe athiest denominations will be refined into groups as you are suggesting, probably over the next few centuries. Did you ever see the south park episode on Atheism? They were fighting over the name of their club!

Hi antz. You gave me a chuckle. Let's make a deal. I'll let South Park define the nature of atheism right after you allow it to define the nature of Christianity.

 

[SithDoughnut]

No Agnosticism entails many things just as Atheism has come to mean many things (we have realized through our discourses over the definition that it contains a doctrine).

There is no doctrine, because there is no organisation. You cannot have doctrine without organisation.

Both are actually thought to be primarily of Philosophical intent. There is Philosophy that underlies Atheism, which can also be seen to be different from Agnosticism. Belief about God is just one of these things. Some people are uncertain of religious beliefs about God, and this is classified as Agnostic Theology. Those who claim definitively that there is no God are Atheistic Theists. This is the reason that many scholars attempt to not classify Atheism as a Theism however to this day, and also Agnosticism given the obvious self refuting implications that exist.

Agnosticism is self-refuting? In what way?

Also, I'm interested that none of these threads on atheism have been locked, considering that the mods class atheism as off-topic to the forum. I guess these threads are fine as long as they are attacking atheism...

Not that I'm going to make any attempt to change that. Good discussion is good discussion.

Also, as I said in the other thread, you can call me an 'agnostic' if you don't want to call me an atheist. I consider both terms to fit my beliefs, so you are free to choose.

 

[hamashiachagape]

There is no doctrine, because there is no organisation. You cannot have doctrine without organisation.

Nope you're wrong. See - First Church of Atheism

Agnosticism is self-refuting? In what way?

Also, I'm interested that none of these threads on atheism have been locked, considering that the mods class atheism as off-topic to the forum. I guess these threads are fine as long as they are attacking atheism...

Not that I'm going to make any attempt to change that. Good discussion is good discussion.

Also, as I said in the other thread, you can call me an 'agnostic' if you don't want to call me an atheist. I consider both terms to fit my beliefs, so you are free to choose.

Agnosticism states that we can not know. One must be able to step outside this frame to know however.

 

[oi_antz]

So which sort of Atheism do you believe in antz?

A: (antichrist)

or B: (ethical)

An atheist person has no God to gage their perception of morality on, so their morality grows from their observations of what is "good" and what is "bad" on the principle that the observer will sympathise with either the victim or the criminal. I believe this is a better approach than some Christians take, which is to form opinions based on second-hand opinion. If these opinions are only skin deep (as in believing the words without understanding them), then the opinionated Christian will reek of judgment and condemnation.

So yes, there may be an atheist person who can be describes as both A) and B). It seems you like to get yourself confused, I however have a very clear vision of what I am trying to say, so dig away if you still don't understand what I am saying: Atheist = good balance of self-discovered morals and ethics, bad sympathy for whispers from the antichrist spirit.

I'll show you this verse which came on my daily devotion email, maybe you can see why Christians might regard atheism as evil while still admitting to admire certain aspects of it:

August 28, 2010

I tell you the truth, you will weep and mourn over what is going to happen to me, but the world will rejoice. You will grieve, but your grief will suddenly turn to wonderful joy.
John 16:20, NLT
What a contrast between the disciples and the world! The world rejoiced as the disciples wept, but the disciples would see him again (in three days) and rejoice. The world’s values are often the opposite of God’s values.
This can cause Christians to feel like misfits. But even if life is difficult now, one day we will rejoice. Keep your eye on the future and on God’s promises!

And remember, this is why the world hates Christians:

John 15
18"If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. 20Remember the words I spoke to you: 'No servant is greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. 21They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the One who sent me.

 

[hamashiachagape]

Become Ordained :: First Church of Atheism - If I want to, I can become an ordained minister at the first church of Atheism. How about that.

You may become a legally ordained minister for life, without cost, and without question.

How about that.

 

[hamashiachagape]

Before this Atheism used to be called Secular Humanism. That doctrine known as the Humanist Manifesto. Its all the same thing.

 

[Mythunderstood]

Before this Atheism used to be called Secular Humanism. That doctrine known as the Humanist Manifesto. Its all the same thing.

Man....you are all mixed up!

 

[hamashiachagape]

Man....you are all mixed up!

So what to say for your "church for Atheism" then? You still have that problem.

But to prove my point, going to a Secular Humanist's website, we see this - "Secular humanists accept a world view or philosophy called naturalism, in which the physical laws of the universe are not superseded by non-material or supernatural entities such as demons, gods, or other "spiritual" beings outside the realm of the natural universe." http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?page=what&section=main Naturalism is the same thing as Atheism. And when do we ever see Evolution separated from Atheism?

 

[hamashiachagape]

I will ask you, can an Atheist believe in Creation Science? Cause I certainly have never seen one that does.

Evolution is a part of the doctrine of Atheism. It goes hand in hand.

 

[Mythunderstood]

Become Ordained :: First Church of Atheism - If I want to, I can become an ordained minister at the first church of Atheism. How about that.



How about that.

Boy, you're really reaching aren't you?

If you read their About page you would see that the website was set up so that people could become ordained (or find marriage officials) to perform marriages without having all of the religious mumbo jumbo involved. It has nothing to do with the organizing of atheists or any kind of atheist "doctrine". It is basically a spoof set up (i.e."first church") in order to offer these services to those seeking a religion free ceremony (and who don't want to go to a JoP).

 

[hamashiachagape]

Boy, you're really reaching aren't you?

If you read their About page you would see that the website was set up so that people could become ordained (or find marriage officials) to perform marriages without having all of the religious mumbo jumbo involved. It has nothing to do with the organizing of atheists or any kind of atheist "doctrine". It is basically a spoof set up (i.e."first church") in order to offer these services to those seeking a religion free ceremony (and who don't want to go to a JoP).

Not really. See here in their FAQ "
Can atheism really have a church?

A church is defined as an association of people who share a particular belief system. So yes, a church of atheism can really exist.

Where is the First Church of Atheism located?

The FCA is located atop the lush rolling hills of Levittown, Pennsylvania.

What do I have to do to start my own congregation?

Once you become an ordained minister, you can begin preaching to a congregation immediately.

FAQ :: First Church of Atheism

Your statement is wishful thinking.

 

[oi_antz]

Hi antz. You gave me a chuckle. Let's make a deal. I'll let South Park define the nature of atheism right after you allow it to define the nature of Christianity.

You shouldn't take South Park so seriously, it is a joke! Yes I love the jokes they make about religion, especially starvin' Marvin in space, that has to be the funniest religious joke I have heard.

To be serious though, as a Christian I believe only Jesus can define Christianity. I know this because I was converted by reading 3 verses (but it took about a week of intense seeking of truth before I was prepared to accept the Bible). Having had my eyes opened to the truth about life from Jesus' POV with just one quote from the Bible has given me a stronger faith than is possible without God. Prior to this I would have argued that South Park was the richest source of enlightenment.. I still love it though, those guys make some brilliant satire.

 

[hamashiachagape]

Doesn't look like I'm as mixed up as you think.