At what point should a church excommunicate someone, or exclude them from being a part of church...?

[Neogaia777]

At what point should a church excommunicate someone, or exclude them from being a part of their church congregation...?

Paul talks about a couple certain instances where the early church did this, and how it was "handing them over to Satan" so they could "learn their lesson" basically...

Not that Satan is or is any tutor or teacher, for he wants nothing more than, and has "no good intentions at all whatsoever" and has no other intentions than completely destroying us... But with the right "perspective", and if you handle him (it) (the situation or circumstance with him) right, you can learn from him in a very positive and beneficial way, but that is not at all because of Satan, but has everything to do with how you (chose/choose to) handle it/him...

Anyway, at what point should a church excommunicate someone, or exclude them from being a part of their church congregation...? And at what point should they be accepted back...?

Comments...?

Oh and, also, at what point(s) or for what reasons or things or "whatever" should you "not excommunicate" or exclude someone from being a part of your/our church as well...?

Or what about "positions in the church"...? Should the standard(s) be higher or lower depending upon what position one wants or wishes to be in, or takes, within the church as well...? Or not...? And, should you excommunicate one based on those standards...? And/or if the standards are different, should they be removed from their position at the very least, or forced out all together, or what...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

 

[dreadnought]

At what point should a church excommunicate someone, or exclude them from being a part of their church congregation...?

Paul talks about a couple certain instances where the early church did this, and how it was "handing them over to Satan" so they could "learn their lesson" basically...

Not that Satan is or is any tutor or teacher, for he wants nothing more than, and has "no good intentions at all whatsoever" and has no other intentions than completely destroying us... But with the right "perspective", and if you handle him (it) (the situation or circumstance with him) right, you can learn from him in a very positive and beneficial way, but that is not at all because of Satan, but has everything to do with how you (chose/choose to) handle it/him...

Anyway, at what point should a church excommunicate someone, or exclude them from being a part of their church congregation...? And at what point should they be accepted back...?

Comments...?

Oh and, also, at what point(s) or for what reasons or things or "whatever" should you "not excommunicate" or exclude someone from being a part of your/our church as well...?

Or what about "positions in the church"...? Should the standard(s) be higher or lower depending upon what position one wants or wishes to be in, or takes, within the church as well...? Or not...? And, should you excommunicate one based on those standards...? And/or if the standards are different, should they be removed from their position at the very least, or forced out all together, or what...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

The big danger I see is when church leaders lead their congregations astray, such as when they give their blessing to homosexuality, from the pulpit. Certainly they should be defrocked for doing that.

 

[SkyWriting]

We really don't have Pauls permission to read his private letters. Or reprint them for the public.
So it's hard for me to apply his solutions to differing problems or a different culture. Or a different nation of people.

 

[Mountainmike]

Excommunication as we define it is not well understood
It is not similar to JW shunning or barring from a congregation.

It is barring from sacraments other than reconciliation - i.e. Barring from communion, which is how it get its name, . And exclusion from significant roles.

And it is only done for serious matter, e.g.sacrilege against the Eucharist , serious heresy , schism, procuring abortion, or for invalid exercise of sacraments by a priest. And even then in the case of Henry 8 for example was given many " last chances" before it.

At what point should a church excommunicate someone, or exclude them from being a part of their church congregation...?

Paul talks about a couple certain instances where the early church did this, and how it was "handing them over to Satan" so they could "learn their lesson" basically...

Not that Satan is or is any tutor or teacher, for he wants nothing more than, and has "no good intentions at all whatsoever" and has no other intentions than completely destroying us... But with the right "perspective", and if you handle him (it) (the situation or circumstance with him) right, you can learn from him in a very positive and beneficial way, but that is not at all because of Satan, but has everything to do with how you (chose/choose to) handle it/him...

Anyway, at what point should a church excommunicate someone, or exclude them from being a part of their church congregation...? And at what point should they be accepted back...?

Comments...?

Oh and, also, at what point(s) or for what reasons or things or "whatever" should you "not excommunicate" or exclude someone from being a part of your/our church as well...?

Or what about "positions in the church"...? Should the standard(s) be higher or lower depending upon what position one wants or wishes to be in, or takes, within the church as well...? Or not...? And, should you excommunicate one based on those standards...? And/or if the standards are different, should they be removed from their position at the very least, or forced out all together, or what...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

 

[dzheremi]

Some basic definitions might help in thinking about this matter. Excommunication is traditionally the exclusion from communion of a member, for a fixed penitential period so that they can reform themselves and rededicate themselves to the faith. The much harsher penalty is anathematization, which is pronouncing someone or some group as being formally outside of the Church.

So a person may be excommunicated for violating some matter of the church's canons without being outside of the faith in the sense of being "left to Satan". It is still a serious matter, of course, but something less than anathematization. For example, in my own Church (the Coptic Orthodox Church), a person who marries outside of the communion incurs automatic excommunication for having sought a form of union not blessed by the Church. They may still attend the liturgy and participate in it to whatever degree they can, but will not be communed. I knew a man at my old parish in NM who was married to a Jewish woman upon coming to the United States, but did so without first bringing her into the faith, so he is technically out of communion with us, but still showed up (with his wife in toe) on occasion to liturgies, as when HG Bishop Youssef would visit us.

An example of anathematization would be that which is pronounced upon the heresiarch Nestorius and those who follow his error, because such a thing is not really a matter of the violation of some church canon, but of fundamental theological difference in dissenting from rightly proclaiming the proper theological title of Theotokos concerning our Lord's mother St. Mary. Such people have nothing to do with us, by their own choice. They are quite simply outside the Church, so they will not be communed either, but neither will they be treated as excommunicated people who may be under that sentence for some time (I have never thought to inquire concerning the specifics of outside-of-church marriages, as it would seem inappropriate), in accordance with whatever flexibility the Church and its ministers may be allowed, but have the possibility of regularizing themselves without having to be received with the full rite of charismation and baptism as someone coming from outside of the Church.

 

[Hillsage]

We really don't have Pauls permission to read his private letters. Or reprint them for the public.
So it's hard for me to apply his solutions to differing problems or a different culture. Or a different nation of people.

Was it not Paul who wrote;
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

 

[Neogaia777]

OK, for what sin(s) should one be not allowed to a part of "any" mainstream Christian church (and not just a particular denomination)... Anyway, for what sins, (or sin) should one not be allowed to be a part of, or be removed from, "any" mainstream Christian church...? (and not even be considered a Christian anymore) and at what point should they be allowed back in...?

And, should the standard(s) be higher or lower depending upon what position one wants or wishes to be in, or takes, within the church as well...? Or not...? And, should you remove and not allow one in, or to even be a part of your church, based on those standards...? And/or if the standards are different, should they be removed from their position at the very least, or forced out all together, or what...?


God Bless!

 

[Hillsage]

Excommunication as we define it is not well understood
It is not similar to JW shunning or barring from a congregation.
.

1 Corinthians 5:11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler - not even to eat with such a one.

 

[Neogaia777]

1 Corinthians 5:11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler - not even to eat with such a one.

Does that mean remove them from and do not allow them in your church or to just shun them, till those things are resolved...?

And if you take this scripture to extremes, then all of us are these things sometimes...? So how do we handle that, or what do we do about that...?

God Bless!

 

[Hillsage]

OK, for what sin(s) should one be not allowed to a part of "any" mainstream Christian church (and not just a particular denomination)... Anyway, for what sins, (or sin) should one not be allowed to be a part of, or be removed from, "any" mainstream Christian church...? (and not even be considered a Christian anymore) and at what point should they be allowed back in...?

1 Corinthians 5:11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler - not even to eat with such a one.

IOW, a good number of the pew warmers, elders and even pastors of today's nominal church just might qualify.

 

[Neogaia777]

The big danger I see is when church leaders lead their congregations astray, such as when they give their blessing to homosexuality, from the pulpit. Certainly they should be defrocked for doing that.

Should every single gay person not be allowed into any church or cannot be a Christian...?

What about one that say struggles with homosexual feelings or urges, but fights them and rejects them, and has never acted on them, and just wants help and wants to be a part of (a) church because of that...?

Should they be completely rejected...?

Or, someone who has been gay and has acted on it in the past, or has past experience with it, but doesn't (do it) (but may still feel it sometimes), but doesn't act on it, or considers themselves no longer gay, or gay at all anymore...

Or maybe they just experimented in the past, or tried it, but don't really consider themselves "gay" because they didn't continue to do it, nor did they stay in it, and really does not have any homosexual urges or problems anymore, and maybe never did, but they were just curious maybe and tried and experimented with it in the past, but didn't, or don't really "struggle with it" like some do, and don't really consider themselves or think of themselves as "gay" like some are, or do...?

My point is with any sin or evil or wickedness: Do the "details" matter, or their attitude about them (their sin(s) or sin struggles or desires), or how they think of them and themselves in relation to them (certain kinds of sin(s)), does any of that matter in this decision, or these decisions that face the churches...?

God Bless!

 

[Hillsage]

Does that mean remove them from and do not allow them in your church or to just shun them, till those things are resolved...?

I only know personally how the Mennonites of my area do it, since I have them as patients and over the years I've asked a lot of questions. They say that 'some sins are dealt with outside the camp'. But they truly are hoping for repentance from those being dealt with. And they are welcomed back into fellowship when a board questions and determines the sincerity of their 'repentance'.

And if you take this scripture to extremes, then all of us are these things sometimes...? So how do we handle that, or what do we do about that...?

God Bless!

I once talked with my pastor, who was struggling with how God would deal with him concerning a homosexual he'd allowed in. I told him I believe it depends on the individuals attitude. If he is in rebellion with his sin, kick him out. If he is struggling with his sin, in immaturity, then you put your arm around and help him out...of his problem that is.

JAM 5:19 My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

 

[Neogaia777]

1 Corinthians 5:11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler - not even to eat with such a one.

IOW, a good number of the pew warmers, elders and even pastors of today's nominal church just might qualify.

And members of other churches who think they don't as well (but very subtly) (and because it is so very subtle that many don't notice)...

Think about it "covetous", "idolater", "reviler" just think of all the subtle forms these things take...?

And then, "then" tell me that members of some other churches (who would judge many other "mainstream churches"), do not, or do not struggle with, or are not in any way shape or form, or in many way(s) are not guilty of some of these things, or does not actually struggle with these things sometimes...?

God Bless!

 

[συνείδησις]

Does no one pay attention to what Jesus said any more? (Matthew 18:15-17)

 

[dreadnought]

Should every single gay person not be allowed into any church or cannot be a Christian...?

What about one that say struggles with homosexual feelings or urges, but fights them and rejects them, and has never acted on them, and just wants help and wants to be a part of (a) church because of that...?

Should they be completely rejected...?

Or, someone who has been gay and has acted on it in the past, or has past experience with it, but doesn't (do it) (but may still feel it sometimes), but doesn't act on it, or considers themselves no longer gay, or gay at all anymore...

Or maybe they just experimented in the past, or tried it, but don't really consider themselves "gay" because they didn't continue to do it, nor did they stay in it, and really does not have any homosexual urges or problems anymore, and maybe never did, but they were just curious maybe and tried and experimented with it in the past, but didn't, or don't really "struggle with it" like some do, and don't really consider themselves or think of themselves as "gay" like some are, or do...?

Do the "details" matter, or their attitude about them (their sin(s) or sin struggles or desires), or how they think of them and themselves in relation to them (certain kinds of sin(s)), does any of that matter in this decision, or these decisions that face the churches...?

God Bless!

I didn't say a homosexual or lesbian shouldn't be allowed in church. I said a pastor who gives his blessing to sin, from the pulpit, should be defrocked.

 

[dreadnought]

Does no one pay attention to what Jesus said any more? (Matthew 18:15-17)

Did they ever?

 

[Hillsage]

Does no one pay attention to what Jesus said any more? (Matthew 18:15-17)

Of course we do. So, how do you treat Gentiles/'unbelievers/' or publicans/'tax collecting politicians' today?

 

[Neogaia777]

Should every single gay person not be allowed into any church or cannot be a Christian...?

What about one that say struggles with homosexual feelings or urges, but fights them and rejects them, and has never acted on them, and just wants help and wants to be a part of (a) church because of that...?

Should they be completely rejected...?

Or, someone who has been gay and has acted on it in the past, or has past experience with it, but doesn't (do it) (but may still feel it sometimes), but doesn't act on it, or considers themselves no longer gay, or gay at all anymore...

Or maybe they just experimented in the past, or tried it, but don't really consider themselves "gay" because they didn't continue to do it, nor did they stay in it, and really does not have any homosexual urges or problems anymore, and maybe never did, but they were just curious maybe and tried and experimented with it in the past, but didn't, or don't really "struggle with it" like some do, and don't really consider themselves or think of themselves as "gay" like some are, or do...?

My point is with any sin or evil or wickedness: Do the "details" matter, or their attitude about them (their sin(s) or sin struggles or desires), or how they think of them and themselves in relation to them (certain kinds of sin(s)), does any of that matter in this decision, or these decisions that face the churches...?

God Bless!

BTW, I'm not homosexual, but I have been homophobic and it made me wonder if I was homosexual or not, but I wasn't, it was all just "fear", cause it strikes me as evil and wicked in my conscience, and my panic button used to get hit over it, and I used to experience paranoia and fear because of it... One way I know that it was, or I was not, is because it not just only happened with that, but used to happen, (and sometimes still does happen every once in a while), with "anything I consider evil or wicked sometimes"...

I fear evil, I can't help it... And I sometimes get very confused about what is actually evil and wicked and what is not... Can't help it sometimes... It's my hell, it's my curse... I deal with it best I can...

I try to have courage in the face of evil and fear now, for without fear, there can be no courage...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Does no one pay attention to what Jesus said any more? (Matthew 18:15-17)

What does mean to "hear" them, does it mean they repent or not, or just feel sorry about it, or what...?

Lets not forget what comes shortly after that as well... (Matthew 18:21-22)...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

I didn't say a homosexual or lesbian shouldn't be allowed in church. I said a pastor who gives his blessing to sin, from the pulpit, should be defrocked.

Should they be able to take positions in the church...? How is the pastor or the congregation supposed to treat, practicing or otherwise, those who may be homosexual, or are struggling with homosexual urges and/or problems...?

And does the treatment of them by others and the pastor "depend on some things about them" or not...?


God Bless!