At times like this...

Jamdoc

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Glad you understand that evolution is not necessarily making 'better' life forms but rather just hereditary change over time. Viruses as far as I know are descended from obligate intracellular parasitic bacteria, like Chlamydia trachomatis, a bacteria that acts much like a virus, cannot reproduce outside of a host cell, and has a small genome because it no longer codes for the parts that it would need to survive outside of a host cell. Replicating the DNA with errors it loses some of its genome over time, becoming less and less able to live on its own and eventually becoming an obligate parasite, then it starts losing the DNA needed to make the structures that compose its cells.. that's how you ultimately get a virus.. strip a lifeform down to the bare minimal DNA needed to reproduce, and it gets to a point where people think it is not even alive anymore. I think it still is life though, because it came from life. Life begets life.
 
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Occams Barber

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Chlamydia trachomatis

Chlamydia. I just love that name.

If I had a daughter I think I would have named her Chlamydia (or perhaps Syphilis). :)

OB
 
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Jamdoc

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Chlamydia. I just love that name.

If I had a daughter I think I would have named her Chlamydia (or perhaps Syphilis). :)

OB
So.. when I was working a naval hospital, in L&D, there was a family with a wife that didn't speak English very well and she had Chlamydia and the doctor was going over things with her husband and mentioned the disease a few times as far as treatment and not spreading it to the baby and the woman thought it sounded pretty and flowery so she wanted to name her new baby daughter Chlamydia
I think her husband put a stop on that one though lol
 
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DaveISBA

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I wish evolution wasn't true, because then the COVID-19 virus would never have evolved.
If you're referring to Darwin's theory of evolution then this would be the worst example of that being true! Along with their 66 virus-specific protein folds, viruses are claimed to have been around for 1.5 billion years! So there is no observable evidence that viruses have been anything other than viruses!
This is obviously a variant of something that demonstrates stasis (remaining recognizable as viruses throughout their history of existence) and not the imagination of something changing into a completely different life form!!
 
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Subduction Zone

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If you're referring to Darwin's theory of evolution then this would be the worst example of that being true! Along with their 66 virus-specific protein folds, viruses are claimed to have been around for 1.5 billion years! So there is no observable evidence that viruses have been anything other than viruses!
This is obviously a variant of something that demonstrates stasis (remaining recognizable as viruses throughout their history of existence) and not the imagination of something changing into a completely different life form!!

Whenever a person makes a claim of "no evidence" regarding the theory of evolution it is an extremely good bet that they do not even understand the concept of evidence. In fact when you make the claim that there is no evidence you put a burden of proof upon yourself. It is always wiser to ask what the evidence is for a claim.

And if one thinks that life has not been on this planet for billions of years it is a slam dunk that person does not understand the concept of evidence. All of the evidence supports an Old Earth. There is no scientific evidence that I have ever seen that supports a Young Earth.

Please note the use of a qualifier in the above. It shows that I have not seen evidence for a Young Earth. It is not an iron clad declaration that none exists. But again the problem is that I have as yet to meet a creationist that even understands the concept of evidence and most are afraid to discuss the concept.
 
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Ophiolite

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Along with their 66 virus-specific protein folds, viruses are claimed to have been around for 1.5 billion years! So there is no observable evidence that viruses have been anything other than viruses!
Fascinating! It is, of course, the 66-virus specific protein folds that is one of the pieces of evidence that viruses have been around a long time. I can only imagine that their is some weird pathology that inhibits your ability to either recognise evidence, or to understand its significance when it is pointed out to you.

Aside: I understand your compunction to challenge evolutionary thought, but to avoid appearing like a fool please educate yourself on the matter properly so that you can mount a respectable argument.
 
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Strathos

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If you're referring to Darwin's theory of evolution then this would be the worst example of that being true! Along with their 66 virus-specific protein folds, viruses are claimed to have been around for 1.5 billion years! So there is no observable evidence that viruses have been anything other than viruses!
This is obviously a variant of something that demonstrates stasis (remaining recognizable as viruses throughout their history of existence) and not the imagination of something changing into a completely different life form!!

Viruses have a very efficient method of reproduction. Why would they evolve into 'something else'? Evolution is a tree, not a ladder.
 
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Bungle_Bear

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If you're referring to Darwin's theory of evolution then this would be the worst example of that being true! Along with their 66 virus-specific protein folds, viruses are claimed to have been around for 1.5 billion years! So there is no observable evidence that viruses have been anything other than viruses!
This is obviously a variant of something that demonstrates stasis (remaining recognizable as viruses throughout their history of existence) and not the imagination of something changing into a completely different life form!!
I think the point others have failed to make in response to this post is that ToE does not claim one organism turns into another. Viruses will always be viruses, but they may evolve into different variants. You seem to be a fan of the "evolution is only true if dogs evolve into cats" school of thought (and I use the word "thought" very grudgingly in this context).
 
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Jamdoc

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All evolution really is is applied genetics. DNA doesn't replicate flawlessly, it can be damaged by radiation and other forms of mutation, sometimes those mutations aren't detrimental and in the right environment, can be "beneficial" in a niche. God can however, utilize this process to a much greater extent, and against what would normally be ecological pressures that'd kill off a species rather than make it propagate, and a lot faster than any naturalist models would predict. a lack of transitional species and "missing links" pretty much shows naturalist models of evolution to not work. But an intelligent designer can.
 
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Speedwell

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All evolution really is is applied genetics. DNA doesn't replicate flawlessly, it can be damaged by radiation and other forms of mutation, sometimes those mutations aren't detrimental and in the right environment, can be "beneficial" in a niche. God can however, utilize this process to a much greater extent, and against what would normally be ecological pressures that'd kill off a species rather than make it propagate, and a lot faster than any naturalist models would predict. a lack of transitional species and "missing links" pretty much shows naturalist models of evolution to not work. But an intelligent designer can.
Actually, evolution functions pretty much as "naturalistic models" predict. Which is what one would expect from really intelligent intelligent designer who could devise a process which functions without periodic tinkering.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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I think the point others have failed to make in response to this post is that ToE does not claim one organism turns into another. Viruses will always be viruses, but they may evolve into different variants. You seem to be a fan of the "evolution is only true if dogs evolve into cats" school of thought (and I use the word "thought" very grudgingly in this context).

The problem with that is that any detailed explanation of evolution leads to more questions and more confusion. It's a bottomless rabbit hole. :confused:
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Actually, evolution functions pretty much as "naturalistic models" predict. Which is what one would expect from really intelligent intelligent designer who could devise a process which functions without periodic tinkering.

Man has to constantly tinker with just about everything because we can't get it right the first time.

It's 2020 and we still log this way. Pretty isn't it?

Logging mess.JPG
 
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pitabread

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The problem with that is that any detailed explanation of evolution leads to more questions and more confusion. It's a bottomless rabbit hole. :confused:

Science is about learning how the universe works and there is always more to learn. :clap:
 
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Jamdoc

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Science is about learning how the universe works and there is always more to learn. :clap:
Proverbs 25:2
God doesn't tell us all the workings of the universe, He intentionally conceals most of it.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Proverbs 25:2
God doesn't tell us all the workings of the universe, He intentionally conceals most of it.
That is a strange interpretation of the verse. That interpretation implies that God is dishonest. I am not sure how many would agree with that.
 
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Jamdoc

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That is a strange interpretation of the verse. That interpretation implies that God is dishonest. I am not sure how many would agree with that.
Dishonest? No. Letting us discover for ourselves in the seeking of knowledge, yes.

as to why?
Why does God do anything? His ways are higher than ours, there is a reason for it but we don't know.

My speculation on why, is because some knowledge is really dangerous to just be granted to people when they're not mature enough to use it responsibly. What if God had given Moses the knowledge to build aircraft and atomic bombs? 3500 years of primitive people using nuclear weapons on each other with the resulting fallout?
We're irresponsible enough with that knowledge even having grown and discovered it ourselves thinking we were "ready" for powers that God uses in creation and maintaining his universe (like Nuclear fusion powering stars)
What abominations and monstrosities would we have made if 3500 years ago God had given Moses knowledge of the human genome and DNA and PCR and CRISPR, this is playing with the language that life is written in itself. It's "playing God" to a degree no other technology has even come close to doing. The point at which we can design our own lifeforms The capabilities to use such awesome powers should only be used with the upmost responsibility for the right purposes and never taking it too far Would you just simply hand that kind of knowledge out to a child eager to do things without proper respect for it or ethics?
That is just my guess.. and who knows, maybe the timing for the 'end times' and I mean the real "last days" is because we get to a point where God says He will not allow us to destroy ourselves through our own means with our own ignorance fumbling around in the dark playing with powers we lack proper respect for, I hope He does bring about the second coming before we start making cloned humans designer babies and designer life forms.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Dishonest? No. Letting us discover for ourselves in the seeking of knowledge, yes.

Sorry, that is dishonest. Do you believe in a literal interpretation of the Noah's Ark story? The event that we know did not happen. If you believe that then you do believe that God lied. And that might affect your judgement.

as to why?
Why does God do anything? His ways are higher than ours, there is a reason for it but we don't know.

That is a poor excuse. The problem with approaching the Bible literally is that one is stating that God is incompetent, evil, and dishonest. It is not good theology.

My speculation on why, is because some knowledge is really dangerous to just be granted to people when they're not mature enough to use it responsibly. What if God had given Moses the knowledge to build aircraft and atomic bombs? 3500 years of primitive people using nuclear weapons on each other with the resulting fallout?
We're irresponsible enough with that knowledge even having grown and discovered it ourselves thinking we were "ready" for powers that God uses in creation and maintaining his universe (like Nuclear fusion powering stars)
What abominations and monstrosities would we have made if 3500 years ago God had given Moses knowledge of the human genome and DNA and PCR and CRISPR, this is playing with the language that life is written in itself. It's "playing God" to a degree no other technology has even come close to doing. The point at which we can design our own lifeforms The capabilities to use such awesome powers should only be used with the upmost responsibility for the right purposes and never taking it too far Would you just simply hand that kind of knowledge out to a child eager to do things without proper respect for it or ethics?
That is just my guess.. and who knows, maybe the timing for the 'end times' and I mean the real "last days" is because we get to a point where God says He will not allow us to destroy ourselves through our own means with our own ignorance fumbling around in the dark playing with powers we lack proper respect for, I hope He does bring about the second coming before we start making cloned humans designer babies and designer life forms.


But Moses was not a real character. I would suggest that you study the history of the Bible a bit. Instead of making rationalizations to maintain false beliefs it is wiser to try to learn what actually happened in the past. Treating much of the Bible as morality tales is the only way to save it at times.
 
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