At least 3 children and 3 adults killed in Nashville private Christian elementary school shooting; shooter killed by police

[RDKirk]

We sure do. But we are not unique in that regard. Other countries citizens have mental health problems, too, and they are not doing this, leastwise not as much as we are. What is the difference? Values? Mental health care? Or, could it be guns? It is a tragedy that .gov spends more energy protecting our youth from drag queens and objectionable books than protecting them from school shooters.

Actually, it is values. Even if you want to talk about passing gun laws, it still boils down to values.

It's always values. Values form our mental health climate, values form our laws.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

There was nothing in the attached text messages that would aid in a police response. Just a call to 911 about someone's friend texting about dying in a fashion that would make the news. There was no place to send a squad car immediately. The best they could do would be to have a detective try to track down the person and check out the situation. It was obviously too late.

I think the point Rob was making is that suicide threats should be considered 911 emergencies. It still wouldn't have helped in this case, given the timing, but there's a reasonable case to be made to have that as policy.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

We sure do. But we are not unique in that regard. Other countries citizens have mental health problems, too, and they are not doing this, leastwise not as much as we are. What is the difference? Values? Mental health care? Or, could it be guns? It is a tragedy that .gov spends more energy protecting our youth from drag queens and objectionable books than protecting them from school shooters.

As @RDKirk said, it really all boils down to values. And it's more of a confluence of values than any one in particular. We have an ongoing mental health crisis, for which we have inadequate care because we, as a country, don't value the overall health of our citizens enough to make health care easily accessible to all. One of the major causes of said crisis is the growing sense of despair among younger citizens, driven by stagnant wages and rising costs that seem to be eradicating the old promise of the American Dream - because businesses value their bottom line over training and retaining a loyal, healthy workforce. And those in the midst of mental health crisis have easy access to firearms because we have placed so much value into the 2nd amendment.

So other countries may have issues with mental health as well, but if they have better care, or the depth of the issue isn't as great, or they don't have easy access to guns, then they're going to be less likely to have the same problems with mass shootings.

The truth is that there isn't any one single thing that can fix this situation. We need to work on improving the aspects of society driving the mental health crisis. We need to improve access to healthcare (mental and otherwise). And we need to make it more difficult for people in crisis to obtain firearms

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Apparently new press conference with law enforcement reveals shooter was being treated for some 'emotional disturbance'.

Seven firearms were recently purchased legally; three were used in the shooting.

That's where our background checks are woefully inadequate.

While having the check is better than not having one (obviously), they fall short in a few key areas

1) Some of the questions are a "take you at your word" sort of thing

2) The mental health stipulation is lacking. The threshold of disqualification is if you've ever been involuntarily committed or been ruled mentally defective by a judge.

There's a lot of middle ground between "sane enough to own a gun" and "so mentally defective that you've been involuntarily institutionalized"

As it currently stands, a person could have severe bipolar disorder, and even have checked themselves into a facility, and still pass the background check.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

What is the difference? Values? Mental health care? Or, could it be guns?

Actually, I'd say it's a some of all 3. (although people would likely debate over how much of each is a factor)

It goes without saying that the US is lacking in the healthcare realm (when compared to other first world countries)

We prioritize gun ownership rights over other factors, and that "error on the side of permissiveness" mentality has led to a situation where too many people have them that really shouldn't.


A gun culture can be safe if it's done right

Gun law in the Czech Republic - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

They allow ownership of guns (even the "scary ones" like ARs)
Most guns are purchased for self-defense
Right to own guns is part of their constitution
They allow concealed carry (and for that, they don't have gun-free zones, and permits are "shall issue")

Yet, when you look at their homicide rates

They're on-par with Scandinavian countries and South Korea & Germany.


What they do have a is a rather rigorous upstream vetting process for ownership that includes getting a "check up from the neck up" as the saying goes, mandatory training and testing, and providing "character referrals" from 2 people (who aren't family members) on top of the normal background check stuff.

 

[All Englands Skies]

Did they literally call that an AR style pistol lol?

Thank goodness for that AR...now the left has something to blame.

I thought that style of weapon were referred too as "Pistol-Carbines"?

Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[All Englands Skies]

This article seems to make it clear the shooter was female to male transition.

her mother advocated for gun control prior to all this. So does not sound like she was from some supressed gun totting right wing Christian family even though went to a Christian school in the past and her family were religious.

Mother of Nashville school shooter's Facebook posts emerge

The mom of the transgender school shooter who murdered six said 'I think I just lost my daughter,' as her own calls for increased gun control emerged.

www.dailymail.co.uk

edited, misread article.

 

[BPPLEE]

Have you seen the footage from the security cams of the shooter entering the school? (For any who haven't, the only person on screen is the shooter and the only thing shot at is the school building itself.)

The shooter uses the rifle to "open" the front door of the school by shooting out the glass and climbing through the broken door.

How would the armed school officer (ASO) really affect that? The shooter's rifle was more dangerous and deadly and at greater distance than the ASO would have. Pick an scenario and the shooter has a huge advantage. ASOs have been an overall failure over and over. The ones a Parkland failed completely. The ASO at Uvalde Elementary apparently were missing, but then the whole town police force was kept away by knowing the shooter had a semi-automatic rifle.

As for "law-abiding" a large number of these spree shooters *were* generally law abiding until their spree began. Many purchased their rifles perfectly legally. The problem with spree shooters is that they *aren't* stick-up artists, car jackers, gang-bangers, drug dealers, bank robbers, they are normal-seeming individuals with a desire to kill groups of people.

What would you suggest since you don’t think armed officers are effective? Officers arrived quickly and ended this but not before she killed six people.

 

[BPPLEE]

That's where our background checks are woefully inadequate.

While having the check is better than not having one (obviously), they fall short in a few key areas

1) Some of the questions are a "take you at your word" sort of thing

2) The mental health stipulation is lacking. The threshold of disqualification is if you've ever been involuntarily committed or been ruled mentally defective by a judge.

There's a lot of middle ground between "sane enough to own a gun" and "so mentally defective that you've been involuntarily institutionalized"

As it currently stands, a person could have severe bipolar disorder, and even have checked themselves into a facility, and still pass the background check.

Do you think a person who is bipolar should be restricted from owning a firearm? Such restrictions would discourage people from seeking help.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Police have released some of the surveillance video leading up to the shooting.

See? This is what I'm talking about...

If they can release this, why not the manifesto?

 

[RocksInMyHead]

I thought that style of weapon were referred too as "Pistol-Carbines"?

Correct me if I am wrong.

"Pistol-caliber carbine" is what they're typically called. Some are built on an AR lower receiver, though the one that the shooter used isn't. Reporters aren't always the most knowledgeable when it comes to exact firearms designations, and anything that vaguely resembles an AR-pattern rifle is often called an "AR". It's a relatively minor quibble though.

 

[Ana the Ist]

The shooter was assigned female at birth.

A female.

Female-to-male transsexuals have higher rates of committing violent crime, post-transition, and testosterone is thought to be one factor. Underlying biological differences could be another.

The person only recently decided to come out as trans, it's entirely possible they weren't on anything.

And when you say "higher rates of crime" ....higher than who?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/&ved=2ahUKEwj55Yuhs__9AhXLiO4BHXqpAyoQFnoECAgQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1nfGy7VvUMk_Nrwv81ai3h

"The researchers state:
‘male-to-females . . . retained a male pattern regarding criminality. The same was
true regarding violent crime."

What I've heard is that they were a former student of the school, so it's likely they resented something about their experience there.

Did they have a tough time in high school? That never happens to anyone.

Recent media attention on transpeople might also have lead to intensifying that feeling of resentment.

Or, perhaps we have dropped the whole "trans people are mentally ill" thing a bit too quickly.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

Do you think a person who is bipolar should be restricted from owning a firearm? Such restrictions would discourage people from seeking help.

I do think that. However, rather than saying that a diagnosis would prevent you from buying a firearm, I would say that we should require mental health assessments for gun owners. They could be required as part of the background check/purchase process and/or as a regular check-up.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I thought that style of weapon were referred too as "Pistol-Carbines"?

Correct me if I am wrong.

I believe the correct term is a trans-pistol. It's like a pistol/rifle hermaphrodite.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Actually, I'd say it's a some of all 3. (although people would likely debate over how much of each is a factor)

It goes without saying that the US is lacking in the healthcare realm (when compared to other first world countries)

We prioritize gun ownership rights over other factors, and that "error on the side of permissiveness" mentality has led to a situation where too many people have them that really shouldn't.


A gun culture can be safe if it's done right

Gun law in the Czech Republic - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

They allow ownership of guns (even the "scary ones" like ARs)
Most guns are purchased for self-defense
Right to own guns is part of their constitution
They allow concealed carry (and for that, they don't have gun-free zones, and permits are "shall issue")

Yet, when you look at their homicide rates
View attachment 329499

They're on-par with Scandinavian countries and South Korea & Germany.


What they do have a is a rather rigorous upstream vetting process for ownership that includes getting a "check up from the neck up" as the saying goes, mandatory training and testing, and providing "character referrals" from 2 people (who aren't family members) on top of the normal background check stuff.

Ahhh....the Czech Republic. You know, I watched a video the other day looking at historic examples of diverse countries that made the argument "it doesn't work" and the Balkans of course came up...pointing out that even in very similar cultural situations, diversity just leads to resentment and factionalism.

I don't disagree with anything you said but it feels like a pipe dream at this point that we would have such rigorous restrictions.

 

[Tinker Grey]

I think the point Rob was making is that suicide threats should be considered 911 emergencies. It still wouldn't have helped in this case, given the timing, but there's a reasonable case to be made to have that as policy.

I don't what the official policy is here in TX, but when my daughter called (we were out of town) saying she was going to kill herself they sent the police. By "official policy" I mean that I don't know if it was a "911 emergency".

I don't remember now whether we got home before or after the cops got there. They then escorted us--that is, they drove behind us-- to ensure that we would, in fact, take her to the psych hospital.

Now, no slight to the officers--they were quite professional and they were doing what their jobs called for--but I still felt then and still feel that this was none of their business. Too, this would one of those cases where we should be funding social workers to handle these kinds of calls. The entire scenario strikes me as society as treating suicide as something illegal. It shouldn't be treated this way. Having social workers handle these cases (maybe with an officer as protection) would mitigate this.

THAT SAID: If such a threat included a threat to others, then by all means treat it as a full blown 911 emergency.

All that to say, I don't think, in general, suicide calls warrant a SWAT team.

 

[Ana the Ist]

What you described *is* mental illness. We have a mental illness crisis in this country, and there are no avenues for those who suffer, outside of 1-800 numbers and appointments that take months.

There are avenues....but you're correct that they are few. Your doctor can prescribe you everything from anti-psychotics to anti-anxiety meds should you express the need for such.

The fact is that instead of feeding this narcissistic self obsessed society by focusing endlessly on superficial garbage....how about we teach kids about some basic health and self care? How about we drop the racial and sexual indoctrination and teach them why they need to go for a jog, eat healthy, get some sleep, etc. When they get a bit older....we teach them the signs of depression, anxiety, and the mania and paranoia that precedes psychosis.

Because that's how you destigmatize it. You teach them that just like something can be wrong with your kidneys or lungs....something can be wrong with your brain. There's no shame in it, but early detection and care can help avoid the worst outcomes.

Because we can set up clinics till the cows come home....but it's not going to change a thing if people fear being stigmatized.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

I don't what the official policy is here in TX, but when my daughter called (we were out of town) saying she was going to kill herself they sent the police. By "official policy" I mean that I don't know if it was a "911 emergency".

I don't remember now whether we got home before or after the cops got there. They then escorted us--that is, they drove behind us-- to ensure that we would, in fact, take her to the psych hospital.

Now, no slight to the officers--they were quite professional and they were doing what their jobs called for--but I still felt then and still feel that this was none of their business. Too, this would one of those cases where we should be funding social workers to handle these kinds of calls. The entire scenario strikes me as society as treating suicide as something illegal. It shouldn't be treated this way. Having social workers handle these cases (maybe with an officer as protection) would mitigate this.

THAT SAID: If such a threat included a threat to others, then by all means treat it as a full blown 911 emergency.

All that to say, I don't think, in general, suicide calls warrant a SWAT team.

911 doesn't have to mean police. It just means "emergency" - it's on the dispatchers to determine what sort of emergency and deploy the proper services (fire, EMS, police, etc).

The only time I've ever called 911 was when I was babysitting my little brother and he smashed his face on the coffee table jumping off the back of the couch. They sent an ambulance and (I think - it was about 20 years ago) a fire truck - no cops or SWAT team.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Nice to see that the American sense of humour is undimmed in a thread about the murder of three children and three of their adult carers.

Nice to see a fellow poster who appreciates a good joke.

One thing I've always found interesting about the human condition is how easy it is to normalize almost anything through repeated exposure.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Have you seen the footage from the security cams of the shooter entering the school? (For any who haven't, the only person on screen is the shooter and the only thing shot at is the school building itself.)

The shooter uses the rifle to "open" the front door of the school by shooting out the glass and climbing through the broken door.

How would the armed school officer (ASO) really affect that? The shooter's rifle was more dangerous and deadly and at greater distance than the ASO would have. Pick an scenario and the shooter has a huge advantage. ASOs have been an overall failure over and over. The ones a Parkland failed completely. The ASO at Uvalde Elementary apparently were missing, but then the whole town police force was kept away by knowing the shooter had a semi-automatic rifle.

As for "law-abiding" a large number of these spree shooters *were* generally law abiding until their spree began. Many purchased their rifles perfectly legally. The problem with spree shooters is that they *aren't* stick-up artists, car jackers, gang-bangers, drug dealers, bank robbers, they are normal-seeming individuals with a desire to kill groups of people.

Officers do tend to stem crime generally, but then get caught unaware when a shooter blazes in. Uvalde was a disaster when the cops just stood around for an hour. Even off duty cops and parents were going in, retrieving kids where officers on the scene did nothing. These cops in TN didn't let that happen and went into action immediately.

Ok, then if armed officers aren't the answer, we need to shift to detectors on doors and loud alarms, and armed teachers (at least some of them, who are trained).

These young people are mentally ill and have been failed by parents and this larger dystopian system in which we dwell. This particular trans shooter was mentally ill and under mental health treatment, according to the parents, said the Police Chief in Nashville today. Her parents said she was supposed to have gotten rid of all her guns, but did not check or find them.

Note that more school shootings have happened since 2000 than in the entire last century.

It's not the existence of guns; we have always had those since the inception of the country. It's the people. We have to fix the people.